Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;281886Okay, here's my thought:

If a person writes a clone, and has fun...then another person reads the clone, and has fun...then he or she runs that clone and has fun...

...

...please point out the problem.

Hence my confusion at the Pundit's original rant and others' denigration of retro-clones.

They're free and fun.  Oh the horror!

Quote from: Akrasia;281887I have multiple copies as well (including my original sets), though my experiences with ebay have not been entirely positive (often these books are in less than 'mint' condition, despite sellers' claims to the contrary, or smell like someone's damp basement).

At least with a retro-clone I know that I can get a fresh, new, clean copy from my printer or Lulu.

Yech!

You got a point about funky smelling books...

But like Dr Rotwang! says, you can have fun with both.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;281408FWIW, I believe that dissatisfaction with how C&C turned out is one of the things that prompted the creation of OSRIC.

C&C was the Troll Lord's vision of AD&D 3e and that was automatically destined to create dissatisfaction with everyone who does not share that same vision.   Back during the AD&D heydey, I knew a dozen GMs who had folders or binders full of "fixes" and everybody wanted something different.

Quote from: JimLotFP;281561The entire idea behind the simulacra is that there is no reason to play another game.

WTF?

Quote from: CavScout;281672How utterly self-serving that thing was. Wow. Can you say, "Our way is the right way, this new stuff is the wrong way"?

I did not get that feeling from the Quick Primer.   Sure, its written from a certain perspective with the agenda to promote Old School, but any right-wayism is just Matt's enthusiasm.  

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;281886If a person writes a clone, and has fun...then another person reads the clone, and has fun...then he or she runs that clone and has fun...

OMG it's Reefer Madness!

Quote from: Akrasia;281888Hence my confusion at the Pundit's original rant and others' denigration of retro-clones.

They're free and fun.  Oh the horror!

Some people can't handle competition.

Quote from: Akrasia;281888Hence my confusion at the Pundit's original rant and others' denigration of retro-clones.

They're free and fun.  Oh the horror!

Again, I'm not saying they're evil or damaging to the hobby, I'm just saying that I personally don't like them.

RPGPundit

This is all good and well, but people, you must all wisen up to the awesomeness of the gem in the raw that is DragonQuest.

Seriously, this is a shade of old school that hadn't been on my map until a week ago. Derivative and eclectic at first glance, unique in tone at second. A million little cool ideas and WTFs add up to... I dunno, something special. A deadly environment with a whiff of Vance.

If I had 5000 bucks to sink into a futile project I'd pay Jason Durall to do a rewrite, print 500 128-page hardcovers, sell 200, and use the rest as wallpaper for my non-extant basement.

Alright, watch this clip from an old-school fantasy cartoon show from the 80s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZUv-YGxOeg

Blackstar!!! Retro and Awesome! \m/

See the guy at the end - the one that changes from a flying lizard man into a blue  elf guy?  That's Clone.

So in conclusion:  Retro Clone -- Awesome

Where does Metal, Magic, and Lore fit in the old-school continuum? It plays like a double-vanilla fantasy coelacanth--A genetic throwback--the missing link between RuneQuest and Rolemaster. It's not really trying  to do anything new. It's just trying to do what the old games did better. And generally speaking, it does.

Now I know it's a "fantasy heartbreaker." But as far as I can see, that kind of label is only good for explaining why the game would be hard to sell. I'm not trying to sell it, but I am trying to play it with folks who would appreciate it. If I say "old-school renaissance," folks come out of the woodwork to play Arduin, or any of these retroclones. But they're a little more reluctant to play something that isn't exactly the game they remember. So what do we do with these games? I don't want to buy the rest and paper my basement . . .

Quote from: stu2000;281913Where does Metal, Magic, and Lore fit in the old-school continuum?

From glancing through a copy at the game shop some months ago, it doesn't seem all that old school to me. Perhaps on close reading I would be more impressed with it's old-schoolness, but at $45.00 I'm not willing to pick it up on that type of speculation as 19 times out of 20, my first impression holds.

QuoteBut they're a little more reluctant to play something that isn't exactly the game they remember. So what do we do with these games?

Perhaps they are reluctant to play because Metal, Magic, and Lore doesn't sound as much like their type of game to them as you think it would/should?

Quote from: RandallS;281916Perhaps they are reluctant to play because Metal, Magic, and Lore doesn't sound as much like their type of game to them as you think it would/should?

I guess. I mean--the group I have to play it are the kind of guys that will play anything. I love my guys. But I'd hoped there might be a kind of sub-niche I could use to draw the folks to whom it would appeal.

But yeah--I can see how it's an oddball product . . . Ah well. Person-by-person, I guess. The old-fashioned way.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;281905This is all good and well, but people, you must all wisen up to the awesomeness of the gem in the raw that is DragonQuest.

Seriously, this is a shade of old school that hadn't been on my map until a week ago

Played it in 1982. RQ is a lot more elegant.

Quote from: droog;281923RQ is a lot more elegant.

Read it in 1984. DQ is a lot less loopy.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;281926Read it in 1984. DQ is a lot less loopy.

Ah, but I've played them both. Handling time counts when you play.

Handling time, schmandling time.

You like loopy, admit it already.

Quote from: stu2000;281921But yeah--I can see how it's an oddball product . . . Ah well. Person-by-person, I guess. The old-fashioned way.

Have you tried offering to run a one shot session?  As long as people don't have to buy the book to try it, I've found with a bit of work I can drum up enough players to try almost anything once. Heck, I even gave 4e a try in a one shot.