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Old School Lethality

Started by Persimmon, May 30, 2022, 12:08:38 PM

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Persimmon

So, inspired by the news of Greg Gillespie's impending Dwarrowdeep release, we decided to roll up a Labyrinth Lord party and go through a a few short adventures to get the PCs to 2nd or 3rd level before they chance the megadungeon.  The one major thing I do to improve PC survivability at low levels is to add their total CON score to the starting hit point total, though they must abide by their die rolls regardless.  A 1 is a 1.  And since we have a pretty brutal houseruled crit system, things still stay pretty lethal.  As things turned out, the party of 8 lost 3 PCs and 3 of the others were near death when they bailed out of the deepest level of the dungeon.  All the PCs had at least 11 hit points; the highest had 23 and left with 2.  The deaths were due to a failed poison save, a critical hit, and one normal attack.  In true old school fashion, however, they rescued someone in the dungeon who joined the party.

But I must say that I & my players loved it!  There's something about that old school lethality that keeps things fresh & dangerous, no matter the level of the characters.  We also appreciated the ultra-fast game play after slogging through a DCC module last week.  We like the tone & feel of DCC, but it just plays too slow for our table with all the charts, spell effects, etc.

Anyhow, do you do anything to help low level PCs survive?  Or do you just embrace the lethality and let the dice fall where they may?

Pat

Adding Con (average 10.5) to starting hp isn't that far off from allowing characters to survive to -10 (a common mangling of AD&D1e's death's door rules).

Though these days, I'm more likely to just start characters at 3rd level or so.

Dropbear

I have always let the dice land as they fall. I prefer more lethality to encourage more creative thinking in finding solutions during an adventure.

The combats I have played through with D&D and a lot of similar systems always seems so staid and unimaginative when there's no true threat or danger, and the PCs are basically superheroes who wade through everything that gets thrown at them.

5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me, and has since it's inception (other than if you're using alt rules from DMG for healing and Rests, and I stopped trying to use those when every 5E table I have played with thinks they have veto rights over optional rules now).

Overall I feel like AD&D 1E and similar has the feel I most want, but I like 2E best for the setting material and a Bard that doesn't take forever to become. But I liked the Druidic hard much more than the arcane.

I think I'd like to get an Advanced OSE game using Planar Compass as the setting together right now. Or LFG Primeval Thule. I'm really enjoying that LFG read through that I am doing right now.

Pat

Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM
Overall I feel like AD&D 1E and similar has the feel I most want, but I like 2E best for the setting material and a Bard that doesn't take forever to become. But I liked the Druidic hard much more than the arcane.
I've used the bard class from the 1e PH, but ditched the weird fighter/thief precursor levels. It's got more of a Celtic feel than the 2e minstrel-y bard, and it's generally more playable than the BTW monstrosity. Can't remember if we had to make any tweaks beyond the obvious (like 1d6 hp instead of 0d6 hp at first level), but if so they were fairly minimal.

GnomeWorks

Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me

My current 5e campaign has been literally on the verge of a TPK at least three times, that come to mind, and probably a couple more that I am forgetting. One of them was a case of a dragon not being able to roll higher than a 3 on its roll to recharge its breath weapon.

That said I don't use (and haven't ever used) stock 5e monsters, so it could be that I'm unintentionally jacking up the difficulty.
Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
Running: Chrono Break: Dragon Heist + Curse of the Crimson Throne (D&D 5e).
Planning: Rappan Athuk (D&D 5e).

oggsmash

Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 30, 2022, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me

My current 5e campaign has been literally on the verge of a TPK at least three times, that come to mind, and probably a couple more that I am forgetting. One of them was a case of a dragon not being able to roll higher than a 3 on its roll to recharge its breath weapon.

That said I don't use (and haven't ever used) stock 5e monsters, so it could be that I'm unintentionally jacking up the difficulty.


   Things like that recharge roll are part of what makes it a bit toothless IMO.  I prefer x-times per day or after a round or two off do it again....or if we are talking literally the apex of all monsters you can face, breathe as much as it likes.   I would say that not using the challenge level on paper monsters (non stock as you say) is about the only way to make it have an edge of danger in 5e.  I find adventures as written seem to be rating the encounters at a higher difficulty than they actually are.   I could see if you write your own dungeons/adventures you can balance more towards dangerous, but as I mentioned, the recharge breath weapon is a good example of nerfing monsters.

Dropbear

Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 30, 2022, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me

My current 5e campaign has been literally on the verge of a TPK at least three times, that come to mind, and probably a couple more that I am forgetting. One of them was a case of a dragon not being able to roll higher than a 3 on its roll to recharge its breath weapon.

That said I don't use (and haven't ever used) stock 5e monsters, so it could be that I'm unintentionally jacking up the difficulty.

That's cool and all, and I am glad you and your group are having fun! But never since it was released have I ran into a situation either running or playing it where a TPK has been even the remotest possibility. It probably is because as you say you don't run stock.

Most of the groups I have played with (with the exception of my long-running Friday night regulars) are highly resistant to using things that aren't stock. Unless, in many of the cases I've come across, it's one of the many (imo overpowered and under playtested) homebrew races and classes from that one wiki site.

That's more or less why I am burned out on it and don't want to use it as a system at all any longer. I've been seeing the same superhero fantasy style gaming since 2015, and I'm tired of a system of that seems to have those assumptions hard baked into it with few options to represent other gaming styles.

Just got the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion and LFG. Both would support the swords & sorcery style I want in my next fantasy game. Probably with the Friday night crew as I have given up on gaming with most of the outside world since they appear to want 5E exclusively.

Persimmon

Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 30, 2022, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me

My current 5e campaign has been literally on the verge of a TPK at least three times, that come to mind, and probably a couple more that I am forgetting. One of them was a case of a dragon not being able to roll higher than a 3 on its roll to recharge its breath weapon.

That said I don't use (and haven't ever used) stock 5e monsters, so it could be that I'm unintentionally jacking up the difficulty.

That's cool and all, and I am glad you and your group are having fun! But never since it was released have I ran into a situation either running or playing it where a TPK has been even the remotest possibility. It probably is because as you say you don't run stock.

Most of the groups I have played with (with the exception of my long-running Friday night regulars) are highly resistant to using things that aren't stock. Unless, in many of the cases I've come across, it's one of the many (imo overpowered and under playtested) homebrew races and classes from that one wiki site.

That's more or less why I am burned out on it and don't want to use it as a system at all any longer. I've been seeing the same superhero fantasy style gaming since 2015, and I'm tired of a system of that seems to have those assumptions hard baked into it with few options to represent other gaming styles.

Just got the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion and LFG. Both would support the swords & sorcery style I want in my next fantasy game. Probably with the Friday night crew as I have given up on gaming with most of the outside world since they appear to want 5E exclusively.

Not sure how soon you're starting your Swords & Sorcery campaign, but there's a new game on the horizon that might work for you.  It's based on the Siege Engine from Castles & Crusades, which is super easy to use no matter which edition of D&D you know, but keeps the lethality from older editions.  From reading their preview (I was a KS backer) it sounds like they've brought in elements from other games, like DCC,to add a Swords & Sorcery feel.  Here's the KS page link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackspirefantasy/swords-and-chaos

Theoretically the hard copies will be out in November with the pdfs well before that. 

Dropbear

Quote from: Persimmon on May 30, 2022, 05:50:31 PM
Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 30, 2022, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: Dropbear on May 30, 2022, 12:26:36 PM5E feels pretty toothless for the most part for me

My current 5e campaign has been literally on the verge of a TPK at least three times, that come to mind, and probably a couple more that I am forgetting. One of them was a case of a dragon not being able to roll higher than a 3 on its roll to recharge its breath weapon.

That said I don't use (and haven't ever used) stock 5e monsters, so it could be that I'm unintentionally jacking up the difficulty.

That's cool and all, and I am glad you and your group are having fun! But never since it was released have I ran into a situation either running or playing it where a TPK has been even the remotest possibility. It probably is because as you say you don't run stock.

Most of the groups I have played with (with the exception of my long-running Friday night regulars) are highly resistant to using things that aren't stock. Unless, in many of the cases I've come across, it's one of the many (imo overpowered and under playtested) homebrew races and classes from that one wiki site.

That's more or less why I am burned out on it and don't want to use it as a system at all any longer. I've been seeing the same superhero fantasy style gaming since 2015, and I'm tired of a system of that seems to have those assumptions hard baked into it with few options to represent other gaming styles.

Just got the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion and LFG. Both would support the swords & sorcery style I want in my next fantasy game. Probably with the Friday night crew as I have given up on gaming with most of the outside world since they appear to want 5E exclusively.

Not sure how soon you're starting your Swords & Sorcery campaign, but there's a new game on the horizon that might work for you.  It's based on the Siege Engine from Castles & Crusades, which is super easy to use no matter which edition of D&D you know, but keeps the lethality from older editions.  From reading their preview (I was a KS backer) it sounds like they've brought in elements from other games, like DCC,to add a Swords & Sorcery feel.  Here's the KS page link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackspirefantasy/swords-and-chaos

Theoretically the hard copies will be out in November with the pdfs well before that.

I'm starting it sooner than November, but I will keep my eyes open and check it out.

Thanks!

jeff37923

I allow maximum possible hit points at level 1. Player Characters still end up getting killed, though.
"Meh."

Wisithir

Lethality is a feature. If low level characters are too squishy to adventure, perhaps they should level up while working as hireling to a hardier adventurer.

Pat

Quote from: Wisithir on May 30, 2022, 10:58:14 PM
Lethality is a feature. If low level characters are too squishy to adventure, perhaps they should level up while working as hireling to a hardier adventurer.
That could be a fun premise -- each player creates their long-term PC (a retainer), and their PC's boss, who is higher level. The player runs the retainer, but the boss is a NPC and is run by the DM. That means their motives and agendas are set by the DM, the players won't know all their bosses' secrets or even all their stats, and they're subject to NPC-only things like morale checks. To keep things manageable, the DM should probably let the players run their bosses in most tactical situations, albeit with the ability to overrule the players if they keep acting out of character. Might be interesting to create an influence system, where the PCs (retainers) can try to sway their bosses, perhaps for privileges/benefits, or perhaps to held steer their choices. And the build system for the bosses could allow bosses of varying levels and special traits (like exceptional strength, or better magic items), but in exchange for more power your boss will retire earlier. Because that would be the end game -- the bosses retire at some point, and the retainers take over.

This might be a good way to start off a new group of players, or to deal with a group of players with decision paralysis. It's also a good way to hook the characters into the game -- each PC comes with a built-in hook to an NPC. Even after they retire, their former bosses can still serve as mentors and resources.

Wisithir

Quote from: Pat on May 30, 2022, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on May 30, 2022, 10:58:14 PM
Lethality is a feature. If low level characters are too squishy to adventure, perhaps they should level up while working as hireling to a hardier adventurer.
That could be a fun premise -- each player creates their long-term PC (a retainer), and their PC's boss, who is higher level. The player runs the retainer, but the boss is a NPC and is run by the DM. That means their motives and agendas are set by the DM, the players won't know all their bosses' secrets or even all their stats, and they're subject to NPC-only things like morale checks. To keep things manageable, the DM should probably let the players run their bosses in most tactical situations, albeit with the ability to overrule the players if they keep acting out of character. Might be interesting to create an influence system, where the PCs (retainers) can try to sway their bosses, perhaps for privileges/benefits, or perhaps to held steer their choices. And the build system for the bosses could allow bosses of varying levels and special traits (like exceptional strength, or better magic items), but in exchange for more power your boss will retire earlier. Because that would be the end game -- the bosses retire at some point, and the retainers take over.

This might be a good way to start off a new group of players, or to deal with a group of players with decision paralysis. It's also a good way to hook the characters into the game -- each PC comes with a built-in hook to an NPC. Even after they retire, their former bosses can still serve as mentors and resources.
Having the players control friendly NPCs in combat happens to built into Savage Worlds. With the Guide NPC being role-played by the GM, a detailed influence system may not even be necessary. Moreover, having the influence be mechanical could hinder low level PC from passing the requisite checks, while roleplaying the NPC interaction will lead to the players having to role-play to advance their interests instead of throwing mechanics at the obstacle. Great way to teach players that there is more to game than a character sheets or dice rolls and introduce a non-default fantasy setting by moving the exposition into interaction. It can also teach the value of withdrawing when the higher level NPC orders a retreat.

Kyle Aaron

Quote from: Persimmon on May 30, 2022, 12:08:38 PM
Anyhow, do you do anything to help low level PCs survive?  Or do you just embrace the lethality and let the dice fall where they may?
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Steven Mitchell

Yes and no on the mitigate.

I like rolling for hit points at first level.  I don't like characters having 1 or 2 hit points, which would seem to be in conflict.  But something like Con bonus as a buffer is more than I want.  So I ended up doing a flat bonus of 5 extra points at first level, modified by "Might" modifier, which is my Str/Con mix. So your typical wimpy characters bonus is in the 3 to 4 range, with the tougher fighters typically in the 6 to 7 range. 

However, I've also slightly increased damage, and hit points scale slower as the characters level.  By around 6th or 7th level, a character has about the same buffer against typical hits as they would have in BEMCI/RC.  From there, the scaling offense makes the slightly scaling hit points useful in some cases but not in others.  A fighter can really dish it out in melee.

I guess you could say I don't mind characters dying in one hit to a medium to high damage roll, but don't care for characters dying in any one hit, no matter how small, even the weakest ones.  I want weak characters avoiding melee whenever possible, but it not being an automatic death sentence if forced into it for a round.  That is, I like how old school plays around 6th or 7th level, and wanted the lower and higher levels to be more like that.  But actually work to produce that experience, not miss the forest for the trees the way 5E does in supposedly a similar goal.