Quote from: KrakaJakIn D&D your are supposedly consider "Adventurers of Extroadinary Talent with the potential for greatness". A regular person in D&D will never be able to cast Magic Missile in his entire life. You get Magic Missile (and another Spell!) at first Level

However, compared with what you can do at 20th level, you're a pathetic weakling.

Exalted follows the exact same mold.

It passes 4 in spades.

A starting Exalted character is very powerful, just not as powerful as he later will be.

A starting D&D character in the old days was polite to housecats.

It's not really the same thing.  It was very, very easy to die in pre 3e D&D at low levels.  Certainly a kobold or peasant with a stick was a serious threat.  The gap between a level 0 npc and a level one character wasn't really all that much.

Quote from: BalbinusA starting Exalted character is very powerful, just not as powerful as he later will be.

Therefore, the Exalted characters power is earned in play.

Unlike, say, Amber or some other game (like that one with the statue on the cover, I forget its name) where you start out with (almost) absolute power in a given domian, and will never gain more.

Quote from: jrientsThat strikes me as a hell of a different prospect that the implied settings of most versions of D&D or original Traveller.  Hell, I'm pretty sure the setting info in the Exalted core book is longer than the whole of either the D&D Basic rules or Traveller books 1-3.

That's because D&D basic set, the setting is "a dungeon" and old traveller the setting is "Outer Space". I'd say the Exalted Core has as much setting as ShadowRun, which was is also pretty Old School (I've never seen/read Gangbusters, or I'd compare it to that).

There's a difference between "starts out weak" and "earns power in play." The former is old school, the latter can be but might not be. Exalted characters have quite a lot of power that is not earned in play.

Perhaps the list was worded poorly in allowing a loophole like that, but I think the intent was pretty clear.

Quote from: KrakaJakTherefore, the Exalted characters power is earned in play.

Unlike, say, Amber or some other game (like that one with the statue on the cover, I forget its name) where you start out with (almost) absolute power in a given domian, and will never gain more.

Look, fair enough if I phrased it badly initially, but the test is that you start off weak or average, starting off powerful and getting more so is not old school.

This isn't legal analysis, finding a way of interpreting the words that supports the argument doesn't mean it fits within the tests I was trying to set out.

Now, if you disagree with the tests that's another matter and fair enough, but if there's ambiguity in what I meant isn't it easier to ask what I meant exactly?

What I said was character power is earned in play.  I thought it evident that I meant therefore that characters do not start off powerful, but if I needed to spell that out so be it.  Nonetheless, Exalted characters start off powerful and the fact there are vastly more powerful entities in the game and that they become vastly more powerful with time really does not change that.

Would it help if I restated test one to be more clear?  I think you do understand that Exalted, for all its many charms, is not old school and that if it gets through on the wording that means the wording is a bit incomplete.

Quote from: KrakaJak3. You are an Average Solar Exalt at the start, one of the most powerful beings in creation to be sure, you're however thrust into the big-boy games of Gods, Exalts and Primordials without a clue.

If you start off as one of the most powerful beings in creation, then you start off with significant unearned power.  There is no way that starting setup is remotely old school.

Quote from: James McMurrayThere's a difference between "starts out weak" and "earns power in play." The former is old school, the latter can be but might not be. Exalted characters have quite a lot of power that is not earned in play.

Perhaps the list was worded poorly in allowing a loophole like that, but I think the intent was pretty clear.

Yeah, well I'm debating with Balbinus, the guy who wrote the damn list. So I'm going to use that loophole to make ludicrous statements.
Exalted, I'm sure, is pretty much unaminously considered "New School". I'm just saying that, the way he worded his rules, Exalted can be considered Old-School.


All of this inspired a new rule:
8. Old School games had rules you could argue over, and resolutions that left nobody happy.

Quote from: KrakaJakYeah, well I'm debating with Balbinus, the guy who wrote the damn list. So I'm going to use that loophole to make ludicrous statements.

Ah, nevermind then. Didn't realize you were being an intentional "cocksmock," as they say around here. Please don't let me stop you from making an idiotic ass of yourself if that's your goal.

Have fun!

Quote from: KrakaJakYeah, well I'm debating with Balbinus, the guy who wrote the damn list. So I'm going to use that loophole to make ludicrous statements.

Why?  The list was intended to be helpful, I hadn't intended it to be read as if it were legal drafting and it doesn't really benefit from doing so.

Well, if it was, then the fact that Exalted could be plugged into it, makes it not very effective at determining what's old school.

I'm sure everyone has their own idea of what they consider "Old-school". If those rules are your personal criteria, cool. You know what it all means. I'm just making (what I consider) funny observations.

Chill out a bit =)

Quote from: KrakaJakUnlike, say, Amber or some other game (like that one with the statue on the cover, I forget its name) where you start out with (almost) absolute power in a given domian, and will never gain more.

What, Nobilis? If your character in that game starts out with Domain 0, he won't be able to use it for anything without exerting himself, not to mention that all major miracles or miraculous Destructions of any sort are completely out of his reach. But of course you can later on improve that, or acquire entirely new powers: each further rank in your original and primary Domain costs 3 character points, while the new secondary Domains cost only a single point per rank but cannot be increased above that first one.

Quote from: GrimGentWhat, Nobilis? If your character in that game starts out with Domain 0, he won't be able to use it for anything without exerting himself, not to mention that all major miracles or miraculous Destructions of any sort are completely out of his reach. But of course you can later on improve that, or acquire entirely new powers: each further rank in your original and primary Domain costs 3 character points, while the new secondary Domains cost only a single point per rank but cannot be increased above that first one.

I stand corrected. I t was Nobolis I was thinking of.

The game I played of it, we weren't really allowed to read the rules, just play as our GM instructed us. He could have been playing homebrew for all I know.

Quote from: KrakaJakThe game I played of it, we weren't really allowed to read the rules, just play as our GM instructed us. He could have been playing homebrew for all I know.

Those rules are pretty darn simple, all in all. But how did you manage the whole collective side of the chargen process (namely, designing the Chancel and the Imperator) without knowing how to purchase the various perks and disadvantages in the book...?

Quote from: KrakaJakWell, if it was, then the fact that Exalted could be plugged into it, makes it not very effective at determining what's old school.

I'm sure everyone has their own idea of what they consider "Old-school". If those rules are your personal criteria, cool. You know what it all means. I'm just making (what I consider) funny observations.

Chill out a bit =)

Yeah, sorry, difficult day at work.

Quote from: YamoI associate it with the idea of the game as a game with rules to be strictly obeyed. . .

The only issue that I take with this definition is that it disqualifies the original printings of D&D (the pre-1976 box sets), as being "old school". The rules therein were extremely vague due to space contraints (something specifically mentioned in the rule books themselves). Book Three specifically encourages the play group to make up rules as needed, in point of fact.

For me, "old school" is this freedome to extrapolate -- rules like those in D&D were often far from complete and, instead of forming a comprehensive set of rules, formed a simple framework that individual play groups were both expected and specifically encouraged to custom tailor to their personal tastes.

That old "Iron Hand of God, Rules as Immutable Law" stuff came about in the late 1970s and, more often than not, wasn't a function of actual text in game books, but of the individuals using them. So why do so many people preach this as though it were canon? I have a theory. . .

I don't think many people today have first hand familiarity with older game books and, instead, have based their perception of "old school" on game sessions that they participated in, rather than an actual examination of the text in old school games. They simply take it on faith that their experience is representative of the rules as written.

The AD&D 1e DMG, for example, specifically demonizes DMs who purposefully throw nigh-impassable obstacle after nigh-impassable obstacle at their players (it refers to such folks as "Killer DMs") -- yet this is a style of play that many people commonly (and erroneously) cite as being the AD&D default.

That said, I've rarely (if ever) seen anybody play a RPG exactly as written -- individual interpretations of unclear rules, omission of optional rules, addition of homebrewed rules, and the very personalities of the players make every game of D&D (or any other product for that matter) unique to the people who are sitting around the table.