To be a weeb: it's like Lelouch in Code Geas uniting the world by purposely being a giant dick and making everyone hate him.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:30:46 PM
It does seem that way. A lot of former 3rd party creators for 5e have been declaring exactly that over the last few days. I do note though, that the biggest players in the 5e space on social media, Ginny Di, Matt Colville, Critical Role, etc. all seem to be keeping silent on it. I suspect they're hoping to cut their own deals where necessary and keep riding the WOTC-train.


Edit: Slight correction. I just got recommended this article, which says that Ginny Di was criticizing WOTC on Twitter. I don't use Twitter, so I can't confirm.

https://www.cbr.com/dnd-beyond-ogl-response-fan-criticism-opendnd/

Matt Colville there is no way anyone could support OGL 1.1. He is creating his own RPG. https://www.geeknative.com/150112/mcdm-announces-new-rpg/

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 11, 2023, 07:45:08 PM
I'm thinking even if WotC tones down their new OGL it probably too late now.

Their reputation has taken a hit.  Even if they do nothing at all, it's changed.  Nobody trusts them now.

I think their reputation is ruined now. Much worse than Games Workshop even.

Quote from: S'mon on January 12, 2023, 07:25:57 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 11, 2023, 07:45:08 PM
I'm thinking even if WotC tones down their new OGL it probably too late now.

Their reputation has taken a hit.  Even if they do nothing at all, it's changed.  Nobody trusts them now.

I think their reputation is ruined now. Much worse than Games Workshop even.

That is saying something.  But GW bad rep has been a known quantity for a long time.

Side note.  Go look at One Page Rules.  It's free and plays faster, if you want to do miniature war gaming.

Still, even I know that D&D is still going to be half of RPG gaming by itself for the foreseeable future. 

Frog God/Necromancer has now made a statement. Plus they have a 50% off sale on physical on their site and pdf on drivethru. What are some of their good products? I'm thinking about picking up City of Brass just because the sjdubs hate it LOL.

I have no idea what the percentages are of the D&D 5E player base, when you break it down between:

A. Those that do play roleplaying games.
B. Those that pretend to be roleplaying while going through canned adventures led by a trained monkey GM.
C. Those that talk about it a lot, write fan fiction, or do other stuff on the side that isn't actually playing (and never really have any intention of playing, not meaning someone out of a game for the moment).

But if OneD&D captures all of group C, and most of group B (barring those that might develop into something better eventually), leaving only the relatively small percentage of group A in the real hobby.  Then I'm not really seeing the downside for anyone, WotC included.   

Quote from: Mistwell on January 11, 2023, 09:48:36 PMOf course there are a lot of people who already hated them well before this who are coming out of the woodwork doing happy dances and it's sometimes hard to separate people who did like WOTC before but do not now because of this incident, and the ones who never did like WOTC before this.

I noticed this as well. I was watching a video of a guy talking about what a mistake this was when he admitted that he had only ever bought a single WotC product (the Player's Handbook) and his group ran entirely on 3rd party products. This is exactly why WotC is trying to shut down the OGL.

When you subtract the people who are WotC's competitors (3rd party product creators) and those that are not even customers of WotC (Pathfinder players and the OSR), it is hard to find people whose anger would actually cost Wizard's sales.

Of course, I'm assuming that Hasbro has significantly better sales and marketing data than anyone claiming that this will hurt them.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 12, 2023, 08:34:50 AMGo look at One Page Rules.  It's free and plays faster, if you want to do miniature war gaming.

Still, even I know that D&D is still going to be half of RPG gaming by itself for the foreseeable future.

Games Workshop is in a different situation because they rely on miniature sales and 3d printing is getting very close to matching their quality (and is superior in terms of sculpting). But the rules for One Page Rules are pretty much crap.

GW, in some ways, is showing Hasbro the future. Way back in the late 90s, GW decided to separate themselves from the regular miniature hobby, only referring to is as "The Games Workshop Hobby" and trying to be a one-stop shop selling rules, miniatures, paints, brushes, etc. So a player can spend 100% of his hobby money solely on GW products.

And it has been very successful for them.

So if WotC can replicate this process, by sealing off the "Dungeons and Dragons Hobby" from RPGs, they could potentially make more money even if they lose a significant portion of their players. Consider digital miniatures; selling these will completely cut out companies like Reaper and allow Wizards to keep all that money for themselves. Something that will happen even if their attempts to cancel the OGL fail.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 12, 2023, 09:28:00 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 12, 2023, 08:34:50 AMGo look at One Page Rules.  It's free and plays faster, if you want to do miniature war gaming.

Still, even I know that D&D is still going to be half of RPG gaming by itself for the foreseeable future.

Games Workshop is in a different situation because they rely on miniature sales and 3d printing is getting very close to matching their quality (and is superior in terms of sculpting). But the rules for One Page Rules are pretty much crap.

The rules are a way for the business that pumps out OPR minatures to say "Hey we are doing this for our own rule set and has NOTHING to do with GW!"

In this way they get around any legality issue as they have a reason to make the models even though they are similar but not the same as the GW ones.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 09:28:00 PM
I agree with you as far as end users go. Despite the shit storm on the internet, I would bet that a high percentage of 5e players don't know the OGL 1.1 thing happened or don't understand it.

I know this is just antidoctial but when I went to my Saturday D&D game at the local game shop both one of the game store employees and two people in my group were talking about it.  So its escaped the confines of the internet.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 12, 2023, 09:21:02 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 11, 2023, 09:48:36 PMOf course there are a lot of people who already hated them well before this who are coming out of the woodwork doing happy dances and it's sometimes hard to separate people who did like WOTC before but do not now because of this incident, and the ones who never did like WOTC before this.

I noticed this as well. I was watching a video of a guy talking about what a mistake this was when he admitted that he had only ever bought a single WotC product (the Player's Handbook) and his group ran entirely on 3rd party products. This is exactly why WotC is trying to shut down the OGL.

When you subtract the people who are WotC's competitors (3rd party product creators) and those that are not even customers of WotC (Pathfinder players and the OSR), it is hard to find people whose anger would actually cost Wizard's sales.

Of course, I'm assuming that Hasbro has significantly better sales and marketing data than anyone claiming that this will hurt them.

I have noticed this as well. Hell, the poster who started this thread has told us a million times that he has never played D&D.

5e has given me hundreds, maybe thousands, of hours of fun with my friends and my family. My son ran his D&D club for two years, and watching him DM was thrilling. I have made purchases including the core three, Xanathar's, and three of their major adventures, including their recent Dragonlance release (and the board game). I also carried a D&DBeyond subscription for years before they started donating to BLM.

So I am a customer. And no matter what happens tomorrow or whenever they release whatever version they are reworking, I am done with them. My price to come back is a complete change in senior leadership, a public apology, no Jeremy Crawford, and at least some significant length of time demonstrating they are apolitical. Obviously, I will not hold my breath.

But the other thing I am done with is carrying sympathy for any game creator who ties themselves to Hasbro in any way. Today, I feel for them. Having the rug pulled out in this way is very unfortunate, and it is not lost on me how many people have connected their livelihoods to Hasbro and the OGL. But starting tomorrow, I cannot find any sympathy for anyone who chooses to do business with them. It would take willful ignorance to do so.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 12, 2023, 09:21:02 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 11, 2023, 09:48:36 PMOf course there are a lot of people who already hated them well before this who are coming out of the woodwork doing happy dances and it's sometimes hard to separate people who did like WOTC before but do not now because of this incident, and the ones who never did like WOTC before this.

I noticed this as well. I was watching a video of a guy talking about what a mistake this was when he admitted that he had only ever bought a single WotC product (the Player's Handbook) and his group ran entirely on 3rd party products. This is exactly why WotC is trying to shut down the OGL.

When you subtract the people who are WotC's competitors (3rd party product creators) and those that are not even customers of WotC (Pathfinder players and the OSR), it is hard to find people whose anger would actually cost Wizard's sales.

Of course, I'm assuming that Hasbro has significantly better sales and marketing data than anyone claiming that this will hurt them.

To be fair, I am an actual customer of WOTC that buys a lot of their D&D products, and I am super high level pissed about this and looking at other games to play if this ends up going through as leaked. Both of my current D&D groups are the same.

But I just don't know how representative we are. I wonder if a lot of 5e fans are taking a wait and see approach.

A lot of the loudest voices right now are ones I know were not supporters of 5e D&D before all of this and they're just taking advantage of weakness. Tons of OSR guys coming out of the woodwork acting like this is all some big betrayal of them when anyone who knew anything about them knew they had zero invested in WOTC and had been bashing them for years.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 12, 2023, 09:15:41 AM
I have no idea what the percentages are of the D&D 5E player base, when you break it down between:

A. Those that do play roleplaying games.
B. Those that pretend to be roleplaying while going through canned adventures led by a trained monkey GM.
C. Those that talk about it a lot, write fan fiction, or do other stuff on the side that isn't actually playing (and never really have any intention of playing, not meaning someone out of a game for the moment).

But if OneD&D captures all of group C, and most of group B (barring those that might develop into something better eventually), leaving only the relatively small percentage of group A in the real hobby.  Then I'm not really seeing the downside for anyone, WotC included.

This is how I see it too. The D&D brand is leaving earth and taking their colony with them. Sayonara, says I.

Those left behind - we have the whole world to ourselves. Necessity being the mother of invention, people are already getting organized.

The next question is who becomes the next D&D replacement game?

Or can WotC pull off a Hail Mary and get the heat off?   

My, things are getting interesting. 

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 12, 2023, 09:46:43 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 09:28:00 PM
I agree with you as far as end users go. Despite the shit storm on the internet, I would bet that a high percentage of 5e players don't know the OGL 1.1 thing happened or don't understand it.

I know this is just antidoctial but when I went to my Saturday D&D game at the local game shop both one of the game store employees and two people in my group were talking about it.  So its escaped the confines of the internet.

I'm only basing on anecdotes as well. My one friend that still runs 5e games seemed to have that attitude I mentioned of "That's disappointing. Oh well, moving on". I should ask him what he's hearing around the local game store, though. It'd be worth finding out.