Off-by-one XP in AD&D 1e

Cat the Bounty Smuggler · March 18, 2022, 11:02:27 PM

What the heck was up the weird "off-by-one" xp requirements in AD&D 1e? In OD&D, fighters need 2,000 xp to get to level 2. In AD&D, they need 2,001. Same business with all the other classes.

I've always kind of assumed this was from false analogy with the calendar, since the XXth century actually begins on year XX01. But that's because there's no 0 A.D. But characters do start with 0 XP. Surely nobody at TSR was that confused?

So what am I missing?

Persimmon · March 18, 2022, 11:27:04 PM

Totally guessing here, but it might have something to do with the Arneson lawsuit. Gygax had to argue that AD&D was a different game from OD&D etc. to deny Arneson royalties. So, as I recall, minor mechanical differences & technicalities were one way of doing it.

I think that's also something you see with the early retro-clones. They deliberately changed XP requirements slightly to claim they weren't EXACT replicas of AD&D. But this is pure speculation.

Cat the Bounty Smuggler · March 18, 2022, 11:42:02 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 18, 2022, 11:27:04 PM
Totally guessing here, but it might have something to do with the Arneson lawsuit. Gygax had to argue that AD&D was a different game from OD&D etc. to deny Arneson royalties. So, as I recall, minor mechanical differences & technicalities were one way of doing it.

Hmm. I mean, adding 1 to the xp requirements at every level is a stupid way to do that, but it's the kind of stupid I can see somebody trying.

It's less stupid than LaNasa's nonsense, for example.

Banjo Destructo · March 21, 2022, 10:53:11 AM

I have no idea, but it does make the math a little nicer.

If you're dividing levels by XP required, just as an example, you could have...
0-100 level 1 = 100 xp
101-300 level 2 = 200 xp
301-600 level 3, = 300 xp

where as... 0-99 level 1 = 99 xp
100-299 level 2 = 199 xp
300-599 level 3 = 399 xp, etc.

but really it probably just boils down to a style choice.

capvideo · March 21, 2022, 01:26:59 PM

Pure speculation, of course, but some people were also playing around with the concept of the zero-level character. I wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point in the development, first-level player characters started with 1 xp, so that first level was the same as the rest of the levels: 1-2500, 2501-x, etc.

oggsmash · March 21, 2022, 04:22:18 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 18, 2022, 11:27:04 PM
Totally guessing here, but it might have something to do with the Arneson lawsuit. Gygax had to argue that AD&D was a different game from OD&D etc. to deny Arneson royalties. So, as I recall, minor mechanical differences & technicalities were one way of doing it.

I think that's also something you see with the early retro-clones. They deliberately changed XP requirements slightly to claim they weren't EXACT replicas of AD&D. But this is pure speculation.

Sheesh...talk about how to be a victim of your own success....those guys were the literal picture of it.

Lunamancer · March 21, 2022, 08:40:57 PM

It's purely stylistic.

Gary wrote two other fantasy RPGs after AD&D.

In Dangerous Journeys, especially as it pertains to spell casters, the skill levels at which the character is enabled to cast higher grade powers has a trailing '1'. In Lejendary Adventure, the requirement for reaching higher ranks in an order also uses the trailing 1.

In these games, Gary will often use the verbiage, "for every ten points, or fraction thereof," so it's beginning with the first point of the remainder that it kicks up to the next higher level.

That might raise the question of why 0 isn't 0th level, but I also note Gary a lot of the times begin tables with "up to" such that the lowest echelon doesn't necessarily follow the rule of thumb.

Off-by-one XP in AD&D 1e

Cat the Bounty Smuggler

Persimmon

Cat the Bounty Smuggler

Banjo Destructo

capvideo

oggsmash

Lunamancer