Quote from: Tyberious Funkdude, are you for real?  The whole internet is one big mess of noise!

In light of this reasoned and compelling argument, I find myself unable to disagree

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkWhen you look at it from the perspective of the hobby as a whole, different often is better.  The more games available, the more different games available, the more choice I have.  And as far as I'm concerned, more choice is definitely better.

Sounds to me like you and J Arcane are actually in agreement (which is good, since I agree with both of you on this point, and otherwise it would be ... awkward):  The hobby is measurably moving forward into richer diversity and (one hopes) broader appeal.  Individual games don't generally "move forward" from the ones that inspire them ... they just move different, offering a new pleasure.

Sound about right?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadSAGA (the old TSR thing, not SWSE), I am looking at you.

I'm sure it's possible for a designer to design a game that actually uses the features of the alternate randomizer (e.g., with cards, the fact that once a card is drawn, it won't be drawn again until you shuffle) to its benefit.

To my mind the main feature of cards is that you draw them into your hand and then have control over when/how to play them. SAGA doesn't use this?

Just thought I'd mention a couple other features, particularly if you don't use regular playing cards:

* Cards can contain rules and other information, so you don't need a separate lookup table.

* Cards can be used as "playing pieces" instead of being shuffled back into the deck. E.g. Magic, Kingmaker, Republic of Rome.

Diversity isn't necessarily progress, something I think I've pointed out in relation to the "network externalities" factor. RPGs require other people to play with; more games can make it harder for a group of people to settle on a specific game.

Quote from: Elliot WilenDiversity isn't necessarily progress, something I think I've pointed out in relation to the "network externalities" factor. RPGs require other people to play with; more games can make it harder for a group of people to settle on a specific game.

Little bit quibbly though, isn't it?  I mean ... progress isn't necessarily progress either, if you look at it from another angle.  More highways means more pollution, means less nature, means crappy lifestyle.  But really, who can deny that "Highways = Progress"?

Quote from: Elliot WilenTo my mind the main feature of cards is that you draw them into your hand and then have control over when/how to play them. SAGA doesn't use this?

As I recall (sorry if I am hazy on specifics; it's been a while since I look at this game), the original dragonlance saga had this fault where you could waste your low cards on meaningless tasks to make high cards available when you need them. Marvel had a rule that corrected this so you couldn't exploit this loophole... but at that point, it seemed like they were just making special rules to make them behave like dice.

Quote* Cards can contain rules and other information, so you don't need a separate lookup table.

Sure; I wasn't limiting my discussion of features to non-repeatability of results. I just addressed that one because it's pretty much the implicit difference between cards and dice. If you choose cards over dice, it seems to me that your mechanism should be selecting cards BECAUSE of this aspect, not just to be different and then adding special rules so it's less different.

As far as rules on cards... Spycraft does this for dramatic conflicts. But the cards are quick references and action-declaration mechanisms, not randomizers.

In TORG, there were randomized cards like this... but I always found them a little bossy and a bit distracting. I guess there could be a context in which the TORG approach works, but I'm not sure what right off.

Quote from: -E.

Quote from: Tyberious Funkdude, are you for real? The whole internet is one big mess of noise!

In light of this reasoned and compelling argument, I find myself unable to disagree

Cheers,
-E.

Tee heee heee

Quote from: jdrakehHow do you know if your're a connoisseur or a casual fan? If you can correctly answer three or more of questions below without Google, you're probably a connoiseur. If you can't, you're probably a casual fan.


It is this audience that Dread seems to name for and, dare I say, nails. The problem is that this somewhat fetishist audience is really, really, small

I missed 6 and 8.  I sent your little poll to my friends who played in the game.  They all got at least 5 of those questions.

In my case, you're wrong.  And it is "swinish" of you to assume that because I didn't have the game exploding, despite having the mood set, players all on the same page, and all of us being horror movie connoisseurs (by your definition and others), that I somehow "don't get it."

That's not true, the game just doesn't pop all the time.  We all found the Jenga tower much more distracting than invigorating, and that it fucks the pacing all up.  I'll grant there's some baggage between shifting from every other RPG and Dread, and I want to try the game again, but I'm dubious of it performing up to the hype.  I'm glad I took the time to respond like this as opposed to being simply insulted.

I agree the game is sold to a decidedly small niche, but I would not have bought it if I wasn't in it.

Quote from: joewolzWe all found the Jenga tower much more distracting than invigorating, and that it fucks the pacing all up.

Well, I guess that's part of what I meant -- you need a funamental understanding of pacing in regard to Horror. If you're relying entirely on the Jenga tower to provide the pacing for you, you don't don't get it, regardless of your trivia prowess.

The fact is that the story has to be structured first with pacing in mind, which the Jenga tower then supports. If you try to build a story around the Jenga tower, Dread will spectacularly fail almost every time. This is why the questionaires and sample scenarios exist.

So actually, one could do away with the tower?

Quote from: SettembriniSo actually, one could do away with the tower?

Yep! Basically you sit around a table and tell chilling stories in which you all participate. Who needs a mechanic? Who needs a game? The story is all that matters.

I don't see how I could possibly maintain a reasonable level of suspension of disbelief for my self or anyone in my group if we were bouncing back and forth between what's supposed to be a tense scenario and a party game. With a die roll you toss it, see the result, and move quickly on. With Jenga as the randomizer there's no chance (at least for me) that I'll be able to step out of the game for a short enough time so that when I step back in the flow hasn't been broken.

Quote from: ElectroKittyYep! Basically you sit around a table and tell chilling stories in which you all participate. Who needs a mechanic? Who needs a game? The story is all that matters.

I could read a book and not have to share the pizza. And probably have a better story.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI could read a book and not have to share the pizza. And probably have a better story.

Don't be greedy with the pie, man!