So, today we made a statement on race and gender inclusivity, along with nudity and sexuality in my book ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com): https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1813848
QuoteHey gang,
Our art director Dejan is about to wrap up the remaining four pieces of art this week. In the meanwhile, I wanted to share our philosophical vision to art direction in ZWEIHÄNDER.
Our personal values strongly guided the writing process and art direction. On the outset of the project, Dejan, Tanner and I made the joint decision to include representation of all real-world races and genders throughout the book. In addition, these races are expressed in the art using female and male genders. This includes instances of transgendered and intersex characters and creatures.
We also use nudity and sexuality throughout the book. In most cases, nudity is represented as the natural state of creatures, and at other times, we use it in tandem with sexuality. We hope you won't be dissuaded from enjoying ZWEIHÄNDER because of this.
Now... with that out of the way, I wanted to give you a taste of some of the new illustrations from our bestiary. Enjoy, and let us know what you think in the comments section!
I figured I'd nip this one in the bud before fulfillment, so nobody is surprised. Most opinions in our comments section and on Facebook have been positive and supportive, whereas others have been damning. We've already received some requests for refunds, which I fully intend to refund at 100%.
Lovely bits; bait and tackle; cash and prizes - however you want to categorize them, the full monty is on display in our artwork. Sometimes, it's done tastefully. Other times, it's lurid and purposefully sexualized. My initial takeaway from this is that violence = okay, but when it comes to penises, vulvas and/or intersex = offensive.
What are your thoughts on nudity and inclusivity in RPGs?
EDIT - UPDATEGlad to hear everyone's opinions on it. We've always aimed for
contextual appropriateness in the artwork. For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.
For clarification, however, the only nudity we have up to this point is restricted to the bestiary.
While I can concede to the 'inappropriateness' of sexualized nudity in the book for those who wish to expose their little ones to ZWEIHÄNDER, I personally believe that it's no different than having a discussion with them about emulated violence in a game that's intended to be violent. Frankly, ZWEIHÄNDER - and Warhammer in general - is and has always been for mature audiences.
EDIT 2 - AMA QuestionsToday during our AMA, I made a statement about why tits and dicks, and a follow-up to inclusivity:
https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5070
Context is key. For example, the Carnal Demon has female tits and a cock, decked out with BDSM leathers - nothing wrong with that, it's a lust demon for god's sake.
Minotaur is packing some heat. - nothing wrong with that.
Apparition - for such a skeletal, ghostly image, those are some pretty good tits. Maybe they should be wrinkled/deflated whatever. Seems a little odd.
Nephilim - I forget the details on that monster, but it appears as a wild, naked man, so nothing wrong with Mr. Johnson.
Not everything has to be PG-13. It's completely fine to publish a Rated-R RPG, especially if the sex, T&A, gore, etc make sense.
If someone is going to cancel because a Carnal Demon has tits, or a Mino is packin', forget 'em. Not your audience. It's Warhammer goddamnit!
In terms of RPGs in general, it underwhelms me. It serves little to no purpose, and just seems like someone trying to be edgy for the sake of being edgy. I mean, we've had internet porn for decades now, so it's to be expected if everyone is jaded with nudity.
Of course, I hold Degenesis (2ed) up as the standard to -match-, and even there it's a bit gratuitous ("why sure the post-apocalyptic bandit lady has a perfect body with naturally perky C-cup breasts, despite a life of never wearing a bra" is offset by "these people are naked because the alien spores they carry are driving them insane and indifferent to the damages done to their bodies"). I'm cool with nudity if it pulls me into the world and makes sense within the context of said world.
Regarding Zwei: the lust demon and taurus makes sense, but bores me. The ghost has sexy boobs why? I -like- the Nephilim (here's a giant who genuinely doesn't give a shit about human society), but I honestly thought it was just a random poverty stricken madman peasant at first glance.
Quote from: san dee jota;947253Regarding Zwei: the lust demon and taurus makes sense, but bores me.
That's kind of an odd statement. Bores how? If the carnal demon had the package put away and a set of pasties would it then not "bore" you? I can see being jaded not really caring one way or another, but "not sexually excited by drawn nudity" isn't the same as "bored".
Quote from: CRKrueger;947256That's kind of an odd statement. Bores how? If the carnal demon had the package put away and a set of pasties would it then not "bore" you? I can see being jaded not really caring one way or another, but "not sexually excited by drawn nudity" isn't the same as "bored".
Fair enough. Replace "bores" (which -does- sound like an active thing on my part) with "doesn't tell me anything about anything, so why put it there? No, that's a rhetorical question, I've already left." :)
What does the nudity add to the presentation of the game? Does it have a purpose other than just existing for shock value?
If you don't have a compelling reason for it, Then you really don't need it.
I'm tired of everyone tripping over themselves to be 'family friendly', PG-13, and PC... so any R or X-Rated content that isn't there merely to titillate but makes sense in the setting gets a thumbs up from me.
Like, I like the naked vampire women in Jean Rollin's early movies... not as fap material but because their nudity emphasises how alien/strange they are.
GW's earlier nude Daemonettes were scarier for similar reasons... The Lost And The Damned books were full of disturbing imagery and owe their coveted status to that powerful vision and not pulling punches on the presentation.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;947260What does the nudity add to the presentation of the game? Does it have a purpose other than just existing for shock value?
If you don't have a compelling reason for it, Then you really don't need it.
Isn't "Accurate depiction of the subject matter" always a good enough reason?
Why must it be "compelling?"
Eh. I'm just fine with seeing tits and cocks all over the place, I guess. I'm not too worried about the artistic statement behind inclusion, and frankly I AM a bit tired of everyone trying to decide for me if I can, or cannot be trusted to see tig ol' bitties and whatnot.
I'm a bit... headscratching... over the Transgender and Intersex inclusion, unless you're referring to things like the lust demon, as the rate of occurrence is far far lower than the current mania for talking about transgender and intersex would have you believe, at least in any world remotely like the real one. Its a bit like that weird couple of paragraphs in the 5e D&D book, it doesn't really add anything meaningful in and of itself, it's just a bit of virtue signalling and pandering that is more annoyance than anything else.
Dunno why I'm even commenting, since I didn't even know you were flogging a game until I read the first post. For all I know this is the RPG based on Corruption of Champions/deviant art, and I'm way off base, in which case, rock on and let your freak flag fly high and proud.
Otherwise it feels like that SNL skit about Cheetos.
As a political statement I find "look how inclusive we are, too" to be pretty boring in any media format but especially in fantasy RPG art. I'd at least find some humor in it if you told us your barbarians only wore faux fur as a political statement.
As far as the actual linked art goes... I must be getting old, I don't find any of it objectionable or inspiring. And going to look at it through the lens of "gender inclusion" didn't help, I mean I couldn't tell if the Jabberwok was included as an example of "Inter-sex" or "Transgendered" or what... I honestly have no expectation for Jaberwok genitals so didn't know if I was supposed to be shocked by lack of penis/ vulva or both.
I'm on record as not being offended by the inclusion of boobs or penises in the other threads we have had regarding this topic, and I still am not but I have to ask.
Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information? I came up with a few ideas:
1) show the picture to players running female characters and stoke fear in them by telling them they will have that cow dick in them if they get captured? (nope, that's sick)
2) show to your average teen player so they will start making "called shots" to hit the minotaur in the penis? (nope that's just juvenile)
3) show the picture to players to encourage them to collect bovine penises for war trophies to hang from their armor? (a miniature of that might be funny, but again nope).
4) spell component award? (I guess... if you have to)
I might have responded like San Dee that it "bored" me but it didn't even do that, I just didn't see the point. But the linked pictures are all fairly "out of context" except for the Lamashtu. I guess I would have to see other examples of what you are referring to subjects in a sexual context to really know. I have a feeling those are the ones more likely to evoke a reaction.
Glad to hear everyone's opinions on it. We've always aimed for contextual appropriateness in the artwork. For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.
For clarification, however, the only nudity we have up to this point is restricted to the bestiary.
While I can concede to the 'inappropriateness' of sexualized nudity in the book for those who wish to expose their little ones to ZWEIHÄNDER, I personally believe that it's no different than having a discussion with them about emulated violence in a game that's intended to be violent. Frankly, ZWEIHÄNDER - and Warhammer in general - is and has always been for mature audiences.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information? I came up with a few ideas:
1) show the picture to players running female characters and stoke fear in them by telling them they will have that cow dick in them if they get captured? (nope, that's sick)
2) show to your average teen player so they will start making "called shots" to hit the minotaur in the penis? (nope that's just juvenile)
3) show the picture to players to encourage them to collect bovine penises for war trophies to hang from their armor? (a miniature of that might be funny, but again nope).
4) spell component award? (I guess... if you have to)
.
Well, since you asked, I might point out that the actual mythological minotaur was pretty much a rape monster, and the product of an interspecies rape at that. Believe it or not, historical cultures weren't always quite so squeamish about uncomfortable (sick, or for that matter juvenile) commentary. Actually... now that I think about it, NOT putting penii (penisuses?) on minotaurs is historical white-washing, and should be offensive to someone as a form of cultural appropriation...
It's your book. You can choose what you want to put it in it, the consequences being gaining or losing audience. Do the net gains of your outwork outweigh the possible loss of buyers? Or, more generally, what is gained by the depictions used, and what, if anything is lost?
Generally, I think going out of the way to show sexual characteristics is a bit immature. But that's the full depth of my preferences and attitude. You can reach the point where I'm offended, but the presence of a penis isn't going to sell me a book or stop me from buying it if the other content interests me. The problem these days is that people flip out over everything.
I find it to be meaningless pandering to a juvenile outlook. If the art is good, if it evokes the setting and inspires gaming, then the subject matter is irrelevant. For anyone that is not the case, they arent interested in roleplaying anyways, just making a social statement.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947275I find it to be meaningless pandering to a juvenile outlook. If the art is good, if it evokes the setting and inspires gaming, then the subject matter is irrelevant. For anyone that is not the case, they arent interested in roleplaying anyways, just making a social statement.
Hmm, I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to. I know you're an artist and a warhammer fan, so I'm fairly certain you're not saying a Slaaneshi demon with tits is "meaningless pandering to a juvenile outlook", but I don't know what you think is doing the pandering. The statement? Are you just saying if it's good art that fits with the setting it doesn't matter whether everyone is fully armored or skyclad?
I don't why there's no such thing as an accurate depiction allowed, it has to be pandering to 13 year old hormones, or being some SJW lunatic.
If I ask you to draw me a group of daemonettes is every single one going to have a bra?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947242What are your thoughts on nudity and inclusivity in RPGs?
Have we really reached the point where showing a bare cock or three in your art defines a roleplaying game as 'inclusive?'
And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.
Hmm. My first-gloss reaction is that I prefer "non-explicitness" in my games in terms of both sex and violence. In combats I don't go into exquisite detail about how horrible and violent it is, nor do I go into detail about how my minotaurs are hung like bulls. And for that matter married characters tend to say things like "we've been separated for a month, so we spend the next three days in our cabin" and leave it at that. And I don't go into people having to shit, either.
If other people want to, no problem for me, it's a null as far as I'm concerned. It neither really adds or subtracts, it's just unnecessary.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947269Glad to hear everyone's opinions on it. We've always aimed for contextual appropriateness in the artwork. For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.
For clarification, however, the only nudity we have up to this point is restricted to the bestiary.
While I can concede to the 'inappropriateness' of sexualized nudity in the book for those who wish to expose their little ones to ZWEIHÄNDER, I personally believe that it's no different than having a discussion with them about emulated violence in a game that's intended to be violent. Frankly, ZWEIHÄNDER - and Warhammer in general - is and has always been for mature audiences.
Spoken like someone that does not have kids... if you truly believe that a discussion about "emulated violence" and why your lust demon has a pee pee and boobies is the "same", you do not have kids.
Why not just step up and just say our game is not for children and be done with it? I guess that would be making a real courageous statement about your game rather than your faux social justice preening ("Hey look! We have Trannies Too!").
Even if you put a parental warning sticker on the book, I'm sure it will find its way into the hands of enough pubescent lads not to hurt your sales, maybe more.
But if you want to compare the art work in your book to the level of violence found in an episode of the Powerpuff Girls or Jake and the Neverland Pirates (which I can with "No Thank You, Evil!), Just GTFO! Seriously, that is just moronic and retarded. I'm so sick of this pseudo European superiority argument of "our nudity is not as bad as your violence" like we are force feeding 5 year olds to watch Quentin Teratino movies.
Honestly, I might actually be interested in buying your game but please don't make intelligence insulting statements like that. Just present your work and I will know for myself if it needs to go on the top shelf or not at my house.
Quote from: san dee jota;947253"why sure the post-apocalyptic bandit lady has a perfect body with naturally perky C-cup breasts, despite a life of never wearing a bra"
There was an article posted on FB about one of the great 40s/50s pinup girl artists.... Vargas, perhaps, but I can't swear to it. Though his paintings were nudes, his models were wearing underwear -- and he painted them exactly as he saw them. Thus, you ended up with women with C and D cup breasts who were painted nude, but the breasts were painted as "naturally perky" because the model was wearing a bra.
I don't know if that's where it started, but I thought it was interesting. Having seen C and D cup breasts in the wild, they don't look like that when they're roaming free.
Quote from: Spike;947270Well, since you asked, I might point out that the actual mythological minotaur was pretty much a rape monster, and the product of an interspecies rape at that. Believe it or not, historical cultures weren't always quite so squeamish about uncomfortable (sick, or for that matter juvenile) commentary. Actually... now that I think about it, NOT putting penii (penisuses?) on minotaurs is historical white-washing, and should be offensive to someone as a form of cultural appropriation...
No that wasn't at all what I asked. I asked what that bit of information was supposed to bring to a group of people playing a game?
But I can promise you if it brings a half ass lecture about "cultural appropriation" in a game that is all about culturally appropriating tropes, characters, races, etc. to build a game world; then not only are my players out, so am I.
In my opinion these are several basically unrelated subjects.
Racial inclusivity depends a lot on your world. Is it based on a historical time period and region in real life? Then I think it's dishonest to portray diversity that wasn't in that region at that time. Not only dishonest in the sense that your misconstruing the time, but also in the sense that you're potentially misleading your customers, as your setting implies a setting that may differ from what you're getting if you focus on inclusivity for its own sake. When we're talking about higher fantasy, where all regions and cultures are original, I don't see much place for real life races at all. I think that if your nations and cultures are original, or only loosely based in real life, so too should be your ethnic groups. I do like the idea of considering geographic gradients as a starting point for ethnicities. In real life, more sun correlates strongly to more melanin for practical biological reasons. In Exalted, the people from the east, the cardinal direction of the element of wood, have pointier ears. Of course, you can and should also throw in stuff with no clear explanation, like the purple eyes of Valyria, or the blonde hair of certain melanesians. You should absolutely not default your races to a European/American melange, because that's both marginalizing and boring, but I don't think there's any obligation to have direct representations of various real life races.
Gender inclusivity is, to me, a similar but different topic - perceptions of gender are cultural. Some cultures do not recognize transgendered or intersex individuals, and some consider them only in very specific contexts. For those that do recognize them, it's similar to looking at gender roles in your fictional cultures: The two primary criteria are what that role stipulates for individuals of the gender, and how strong those roles are. Of course, this is purely worldbuilding. When it comes to art, I would avoid focusing on these individuals overly much simply because it's easy to put on a pedestal, and non-binary folks are statistically pretty minor. That doesn't mean that you should avoid non-binary people entirely, of course, but don't make that the defining feature of an individual or culture.
Nudity is separate entirely from the above concerns in my opinion. Rather than nudity, I would look at it from a cultural context: What are the standards of modesty? I don't think that every culture should cleave to our real-world sensibilities. But as with the other concerns mentioned here, it's very easy to do this "wrong". Nudity that fetishizes the human body (except where that makes sense, like the lust demon) is not really an appropriate standard, and focusing on sexual parts of the body runs the risk of being pornographic. Porn isn't something I'm going to denounce in general here, but when you're making a game that's probably not your goal. So you need to make sure that the genitals look normal, a simple part of the body and not overly emphasized. This is something that I think y'all Zweihänder folks have actually dropped the ball on. Those penises don't look fully flacid and they aren't drawn with the same level of rough sketchiness that the rest of the designs are. Especially look at the smooth blending on that satyr glans (why is he even circumsized?) compared to the hair everywhere else. It makes the dick stand out like the art is saying "Look! A penis! Aren't we transgressive!". I don't think that's really appropriate for a dude just standing there with his axe. Why not make it a normal flaccid penis, the sort that (given his dense hair) should probably only barely peek out, with hair-clad scrotum framing it from behind and drooping almost as low as the shriveled foreskin typical of an unaroused individual. Alternately, go for the "mighty fucking bullcock" Black Vulmea mentioned, and make it explicitly a rape monster like the minotaur of lore, but the current half-measure is weird, it feels at best like an artistically unskilled addition, and at worst like the childish perversity that some other posters have perceived it as.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information?
It's not the penis itself that's relevant - though the current art emphasizes it - but the nudity. Nudity implies (but doesn't denote) barbarism, a culture with less focus on modesty or propriety. It thereby signifies an enemy that you are unlikely to reason with, or an ally/neutral party who is unlikely to be swayed by or desire to interact with society. The penis itself is there because, well, that's something you see when a humanoid male is naked. The semi-erect penis depicted by the art does lean towards your three unsavory possibilities, but that's not an inherent feature of penises.
Although as for the first one, a rapist isn't necessarily "eek how scary he might rape me!" but rather, a moral abomination which is fundamentally disgusting and must therefore be killed.
Well, on the miniatures end of the thing I'd rather naked Celts had their junk intact than not. One of my friends meticulously clipped the dangling bits from a couple dozen old Ral Partha Collector's Series Orcs. Then there's Hasslefree that revels in naughty figures. I expect they sell well but then it drifts over to Other World's stuff and their minotaur and manticore and many other figures are dangling loose in the breeze. I don't quite know what to make of their straight out of Where The Wild Things Are bugbears with their boys hanging low.
From an artistic perspective, it's weirder when they're missing. Take the Mutant Chronicles Razide, kind of a molten metal heavy weapons carrying critter with bird feet. The absence of things makes them particularly alien and weird looking, but they put a loin cloth on the new ones and one can't but wonder why bother?
Heck, you know what, even thinking about it this much is weird.
Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines. The minotaur is drawn in fuzzy charcoal grays, except for the lines delineating his penis, which are stark black and sharp (the tip of the snout and horns are similar, but blend in more gradually). Same with the carnal demon, and in addition the demon is dressed in bizarre very modern-seeming fetish gear, has silicone tits, and that back leg is horrible. The nephlim is okay and the apparition is fine (though given the haggy face those are mighty perky boobs), but dicks on everything else makes it weird that the bog thing and especially the jabberwork are so obviously sexless (the poses make it hard to miss).
Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947282There was an article posted on FB about one of the great 40s/50s pinup girl artists.... Vargas, perhaps, but I can't swear to it. Though his paintings were nudes, his models were wearing underwear -- and he painted them exactly as he saw them. Thus, you ended up with women with C and D cup breasts who were painted nude, but the breasts were painted as "naturally perky" because the model was wearing a bra.
Interesting factoid (seriously!)
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947282I don't know if that's where it started, but I thought it was interesting. Having seen C and D cup breasts in the wild, they don't look like that when they're roaming free.
That was kind of my point. I mean Degenesis is a -gorgeous- -gorgeous- set of books, setting my current standard for "best art in an RPG". But unrealistic cheesecake is unrealistic cheesecake.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947277Hmm, I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to.
only the initial post, still digesting the rest of the thread.
Quote from: Pat;947286Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines.
Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.
Yup - definitely looked like someone said "hey, draw a dick on that daemonette!"
Quote from: Black Vulmea;947278Have we really reached the point where showing a bare cock or three in your art defines a roleplaying game as 'inclusive?'
And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.
LOL indeed.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267As a political statement I find "look how inclusive we are, too" to be pretty boring in any media format but especially in fantasy RPG art.
Seriously.
Quote from: Simlasa;947264I'm tired of everyone tripping over themselves to be 'family friendly', PG-13, and PC... so any R or X-Rated content that isn't there merely to titillate but makes sense in the setting gets a thumbs up from me.
I don't see "everyone" doing so. However, plenty of films strive for a PG-13 vs R rating because you cut your audience down significantly otherwise. And we are talking games here, so "family friendly" is generally a good thing.
You can talk about minotaur rape fantasies at your table, but for those not into it, there's nothing to be gained from minotaur dick pics.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;947260What does the nudity add to the presentation of the game? Does it have a purpose other than just existing for shock value?
If you don't have a compelling reason for it, Then you really don't need it.
Bingo.
Then again, I think you can suggest themes without having to be on-the-nose.
Or the cock.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947265Isn't "Accurate depiction of the subject matter" always a good enough reason?
Why must it be "compelling?"
Shock value is a juvenile reason for nudity. It's deliberately attention grabbing in the cheapest way possible.
I don't object to nudity in games in general. But the motivations for having said nudity in the first place are important.
After all. We are talking about a communicative medium. And what is communicated definitely an an important componant.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947269For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.
Doubtful. Something rapey, something lusty, something about not being limited by the social mores of others. Does that cover it all?
I mean, I respect you're trying to run with a home-brew unlicensed version of Slannesh (it wouldn't be a Warhammer clone without that!), but using the phrases "naughty bits" and "mature audiences" in the same post is probably not a good way to convince me this isn't an exercise in light-hearted juvenalia. Which is fine (really, I'm all for rolling dice and smacking orcs and telling crude jokes), but it shouldn't be confused with being more than it is.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;947278And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.
Actually, having grown up in farm country I found that bulls and stallions are "growers," not "showers." When non aroused the penis is almost completely hidden up in the sheath.
Quote from: san dee jota;947293Which is fine (really, I'm all for rolling dice and smacking orcs and telling crude jokes), but it shouldn't be confused with being more than it is.
Indeed. Attempts to be "edgy" usually come off to me as "desperate cry for attention". WFRP, back when they
were edgy, managed to be weird/sexy with Slannesh, but were smart about where they drew the line.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947298Actually, having grown up in farm country I found that bulls and stallions are "growers," not "showers." When non aroused the penis is almost completely hidden up in the sheath.
I won't question any, umm, hands-on experience in that regard.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947298Actually, having grown up in farm country I found that bulls and stallions are "growers," not "showers." When non aroused the penis is almost completely hidden up in the sheath.
Having ridden horses and driven mules for many years, I agree - if it's going to show, it should be erect, and if it's not, you shouldn't see it at all. Either way, it shouldn't look like he's unhappy over his
brit milah.
So, edgy, juvenile, shocking, sexy, or just accurate depictions?
Spoiler
1. (http://yeslk.com/images/OIP-M8f40993973f04bc4972a1f1ad38b26ffo0.jpg)
2. (http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/darlene3.jpg)
3. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Type_V_Demon.JPG)
4. (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/fva3jbatbfw1c9xfahir.jpg)
5. (http://www.therobotsvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Loviatar.jpg)
6. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_eMi3xv60P0/Ul8nhVPBnoI/AAAAAAAAPzY/1q2upkY2peY/s640/succubus.png)
However, the succubus pic was obviously redone, as was the minotaur. Throwing a bondage cock onto a succubus just to be "inclusive" is kinda lame. Minotaurs could have human or bull cocks, but tossing a circumcised one on after is kinda lame too. It should be like the nephilim.
BTW, if you're talking about "inclusivity" is showing cocks just supposed to give a shout-out to the chicks and gay guys? Does the succubus have a cock for the hermaphrodites? Will the centaur be rocking his cock for all the bronies? Where's my vag shots?
Quote from: CRKrueger;947304So, edgy, juvenile, shocking, sexy, or just accurate depictions?
1. Is supposed to be edgy. not sure it hits.
2. I had never seen this one. I'm going to say "accurate" was the artist intent. Sad demon girl has fat rolls no less... and a big ass.
3. I have been informed this is cultural appropriation and refuse to look at it so I do not commit the ultimate SJW sin.
4a. and 4b. are just crappy art. So bad it doesn't deserve one of your suggested adjectives.
5.What? My eyes are too bad. Not sure if this is just a human noble sitting around with her breasts out. If so, I will go Juvenile on this one.
6. Sexy, to the point. In context. Maybe a little too sanitized for the evil act she is doing.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947242What are your thoughts on nudity and inclusivity in RPGs?
Nudity: Eh. Depends on the tone the book is going for.
Inclusivity: This word has been ruined for me. I want to pour bleach on my eyes whenever I read it.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947281Spoken like someone that does not have kids... if you truly believe that a discussion about "emulated violence" and why your lust demon has a pee pee and boobies is the "same", you do not have kids.
+1
It also shows that you don't spend much time around kids either. I don't have kids yet - but my 13 nieces & nephews are more than enough to tell me that it's NOT the same.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947306However, the succubus pic was obviously redone, as was the minotaur. Throwing a bondage cock onto a succubus just to be "inclusive" is kinda lame. Minotaurs could have human or bull cocks, but tossing a circumcised one on after is kinda lame too. It should be like the nephilim.
BTW, if you're talking about "inclusivity" is showing cocks just supposed to give a shout-out to the chicks and gay guys? Does the succubus have a cock for the hermaphrodites? Will the centaur be rocking his cock for all the bronies? Where's my vag shots?
To address your questions, you'll need to separate my two statements from one another:
ON RACE & GENDER INCLUSIVITY
Our personal values strongly guided the writing process and art direction. On the outset of the project, Dejan, Tanner and I made the joint decision to include representation of all real-world races and genders throughout the book. In addition, these races are expressed in the art using female and male genders. This includes instances of transgendered and intersex characters and creatures.We portray characters from the perspective of real world races: Caucasian, Dravidian, Mongoloid and Negroid. In addition, you can roughly count up an equal number of males, females and transgendered characters in the book. We aimed for inclusivity, and to 'break' the mold for most Renaissance-inspired games by making doubly sure to illustrate a representative sample of gamers across the world.
ON NUDITY & SEXUALITY IN THE BESTIARYWe also use nudity and sexuality throughout the book. In most cases, nudity is represented as the natural state of creatures, and at other times, we use it in tandem with sexuality. We hope you won't be dissuaded from enjoying ZWEIHÄNDER because of this.The artwork sometimes shows creatures 'in the wild', with their parts just hangin' out. Other times, the artwork is intended to be titillating. And yes, sometimes creatures are circumcised and others are not; it's intentional. Ultimately, it's up to the reader to interpret intent by reading the book and bestiary entry, so that they have the proper context.
Otherwise, a dick demon is just a dick demon for the sake of shock value:
[video=vimeo;121524871]https://vimeo.com/121524871[/youtube]
Quote from: CRKrueger;947304So, edgy, juvenile, shocking, sexy, or just accurate depictions?
It's cheesecake -- they're all attractive, where topless male creatures tend to be fat, have their chest obscured, or just lack detail (the 1e MM seems to shy away from drawing male nipples). But they fit the monsters, they're not in silly fetish gear, and their bodies are more natural, instead of inflated or anorexic. The exceptions are the type V (but that's probably just ineptness rather than intent), Loviatar, and the last one -- which I don't recognize and seems to be from a different era of TSR art.
I think that the cenobites from Hellraiser are the most perfect Slaanesh demons. Cock-rings not necessary.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;9473072. I had never seen this one. I'm going to say "accurate" was the artist intent. Sad demon girl has fat rolls no less... and a big ass.
This is by Darlene, a female artist who also created the great map of Greyhawk and did a comic series in Dragon for a while. I think that she is a woman may have something to do with the portrayal of the body here. It appears in the back of the 1e DMG. Of my favorities from the era actually.
'Accurate' is an odd qualification for fantasy creatures, some created whole clothe.
Another example: we went full-on beefcake with a few males and suggestive titillation with a few females.
See the image below of the Prostitute career. If you can guess who the male character was modeled after - from a movie made its rounds in Hollywood not once but twice, promising a 'big' package - I'll send you the illustrated PDF for free upon release:
Spoiler
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Quote from: Voros;947313'Accurate' is an odd qualification for fantasy creatures, some created whole clothe.
Almost none are created from whole cloth. They're usually just human plus, animal plus, or some mix of humans and animals. If you don't know how to draw a horse, you can't draw a good centaur. And it's even more obvious when a monster has a humanlike form, because of familiarity.
Quote from: Spike;947270Well, since you asked, I might point out that the actual mythological minotaur was pretty much a rape monster, and the product of an interspecies rape at that.
In what version of the myth did you reads this? As I recall in Ovid Minos is supposed to sacrifice a bull sent by the Gods and because he doesn't they make his wife fall in love and sleep with the bull and give birth to the Minotaur. So it is bestiality but not rape. And I don't recall any suggestion that the Minotaur rapes his victims, he eats them. Certainly there are subtextual suggestions of rape in the material but nothing overt. And as you say it's not like Ovid or the Greeks were shy about including rape in their stories.
So... The game is going change from a game to a political statement? Well, unsold.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947315Another example: we went full-on beefcake with some of our artwork with males, and titillation with females.
See the image below of the Prostitute career. If you can guess who the male character was modeled after - a movie made its rounds in Hollywood not once but twice - I'll send you the illustrated PDF for free upon release:
Spoiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]707[/ATTACH]
Channing Tatum?
Anyway I like that artwork. Always nice to mix it up even if some like to call it 'virtue signalling' (what do you call it when people beat the term virtue signalling into the ground?).
Just read a blog where a guy reviewed the Rules Cyclopedia and notes the high representation of women and POC in the art. (http://the-disoriented-ranger.blogspot.ca/2017/02/rules-cyclopedia-oddities-part-6.html) Shows how much of a toxic influence the net has become to civil discourse that the RC was published in 1991 with that artwork and he/she in the text without a peep but to do the same today ignites an anti-PC shitstorm.
Quote from: Voros;947319Chatting Tatum?
Anyway I like that artwork. Always nice to mix it up even if some like to call it 'virtue signalling' (what do you call it when people beat the term virtue signalling into the ground?).
Close. Go
right.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;947318So... The game is going change from a game to a political statement? Well, unsold.
White European and American males aren't the only folks who play tabletop RPGs. Sorry that our approach doesn't appeal to you.
Quote from: Pat;947316Almost none are created from whole cloth. They're usually just human plus, animal plus, or some mix of humans and animals. If you don't know how to draw a horse, you can't draw a good centaur. And it's even more obvious when a monster has a humanlike form, because of familiarity.
Got'cha.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947320Close. Go right.
Matthew McConaughey? Should have guessed that with the hayseed look.
Quote from: Voros;947325Matthew McConaughey? Should have guessed that with the hayseed look.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner![ATTACH=CONFIG]708[/ATTACH]
Send me your email address, and I'll get you on the list.
Quote from: Voros;947313'Accurate' is an odd qualification for fantasy creatures, some created whole clothe.
Thank you for the info.
Yeah "accurate" might seem like a weird qualifier in fantasy art but even if that is not the correct word for it, it is something I look for. I like a little bit of that real world grittiness in fantasy art. I have several miniatures of peasants that have patches in their battered clothes. Miniatures of Orc and Ogre family units. I love miniatures that try to evoke that "Level 1" trype character that is in over their head and should probably just go home. Or a chubby succubus...
Check out the cover to the BECMI D&D Creature Crucible.... over burdened with gear and dragging the wizard into the dungeon kicking and screaming.
Give me a picture of a Knight about to pee himself going into battle. A sorceress scared to death of whatever arcane powers she has just unleashed. A group of Dwarves astounded at the luck to be able to bury such riches.
Or maybe it is even the real world ecology that informs some of Larry Elmore's art. I'm not very good at posting images to the board but look up "bloodstone lands" a painting by Larry Elmore. This might be my single favorite piece of fantasy artwork. It is a painting of an evil fantasy army marching laboriously through snowy mountains. It looks like it could well be a painting of George Washington crossing the Potomac if not for all the undead and giants.
Maybe accurate is not the word but there is something to be said for a fantasy thing could exist in an alternate real universe, maybe "relate-able" is the word. I think that might be the other element the OP's artwork is missing reading through the thread.
So far we have:
Minotaur has a cut penis that is just hanging out when Gronan says it shouldn't. And I don't even want to see the inclusive drawing of the female minotaur that would solve the latter issue.
Lust demon with silicone tits and cock rings.
Ghost thing with fake boobs..
Apparently the only thing getting a pass is the giant with the 2 ft. pecker and the creatures that did not get any naughty bits.
So basically, non-humans don't wear clothes.
Really people? Who fucking cares if some monsters have some naughty bits showing?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947326Send me your email address, and I'll get you on the list.
Awesome thanks!
I have to wonder what the reaction to the art would have been without the statement in the OP.
Fun Fact: This thread on purple caught him a 3-day ban. :rotfl:
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947326Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
That explains my first reaction to the art: While the woman looks at least vaguely historical (vaguely), the man looks like a modern stripper who stole a RenFaire hat.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947332Fun Fact: This thread on purple caught him a 3-day ban. :rotfl:
In fairness, the expressed reason was "Enough with the shameless ZWEIHANDER promotion, already!"
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947327Check out the cover to the BECMI D&D Creature Crucible.... over burdened with gear and dragging the wizard into the dungeon kicking and screaming.
Another favorite of mine! Preach on brother. Hard to find a good copy of that cover on the net.
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Here is the Bloodstone Lands one you mentioned, I always dug it too. It's the cover for The Savage Frontiers by Paul Jaquays, one of gems buried in the FR supplements.
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Here's an Elmore from the 2e PHB I always liked. It has that bit of grit and detail you mention.
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And another, my fav portrait of a cleric.
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Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947322White European and American males aren't the only folks who play tabletop RPGs. Sorry that our approach doesn't appeal to you.
If I was trying to pick a fight, I might ask what white european and american males' got to do with a cut willie with a minotaur drawn around it.
I'm not opposed to frontal nudity artwork. Do it right, and it will work very well. Do it wrong, and you will be rightly mocked. So far, I don't find your anatomically accurate art as right as it could be.
Ok, I've taken in the whole thread and here are my thoughts:
1) I am just way too old & jaded for these kind of marketing ploys. The entire purpose of this "announcement" just reads to me as "look how PC we are, but also, look how edgy we are." Its not a news story, its not an attempt to gage the reaction from a community, its advertising. And I realize Zweihander has done extraordinarily well based on the neverending efforts of the authors to plug the game on forums and social media the last 4 years, but personally I find this particular "controversy-mongering" tactic insulting.
2) I have no problem with nudity, I don't like porn. I don't think I need to define the difference, if its one and appropriate to the material, I wouldn't bat an eye. If its the other, then its pretty much the opposite of "maturity".
3) As I said before, quality (and by that, I dont necessarily mean technical skill) is the only lens through which I view RPG art. If its really important to the game's creators to be "inclusive", this isn't going to make any difference as long as its not a glaringly inappropriate projection of modern culture onto the setting. Of course, glancing over my WHFRP 1st edition material, I'll note this is not a problem with that particular game that needed any fixing. Zweihander wont be doing anything special or new. But I also cant help but ponder why, if they are confident in the quality and presentation, does this require any virtue signalling on their part? Why can't the work speak for itself, and the audience be allowed to draw their own conclusions?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;947335In fairness, the expressed reason was "Enough with the shameless ZWEIHANDER promotion, already!"
Gotta hustle to get the word out.
A friend of mine suggested I do a postmortum on the success of my SEO & marketing to get a relatively unknown RPG known to practically every one who owns a copy of WFRP. But that was a necessity to achieve my goal of putting a fantastic RPG into folks' hands. ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (//grimandperilous.com) been a labor of love and I am excited to show the world what all the fuss is about, naughty bits and all.
Quote from: Voros;947338Another favorite of mine! Preach on brother. Hard to find a good copy of that cover on the net.
Thank you for the pics. Nice assist even when I was miss-remembering some title names.
I don't mind tasteful nudity or representations of a variety of different races in RPG art (I don't believe you could possibly represent 'all real world races' though). I would not buy a game from people who thought it appropriate to make a statement like the one in the OP. I cut down on my Paizo purchasing because of their political stance in their game products, and this seems to dial it up a couple notches.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947341Gotta hustle to get the word out.
I think you crossed the line between "SEO hustler" and "annoying shill" back there somewhere. Waaaaay back there.
This thread just confirms it.
FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".
Quote from: Voros;947317In what version of the myth did you reads this? As I recall in Ovid Minos is supposed to sacrifice a bull sent by the Gods and because he doesn't they make his wife fall in love and sleep with the bull and give birth to the Minotaur. So it is bestiality but not rape. And I don't recall any suggestion that the Minotaur rapes his victims, he eats them. Certainly there are subtextual suggestions of rape in the material but nothing overt. And as you say it's not like Ovid or the Greeks were shy about including rape in their stories.
Sadly I don't know which version of most greek myths I know, because these days most of the time you're getting smaller isolated stories out of translated sources. The version I know is that the bull is sent to Crete by the gods, and since it is holy they cannot kill or harm it, and it escapes and pretty much goes on a big ol' rape spree, starting with the queen. Being semi-divine and royal, they can't exactly kill the minotuar either, but since it's a rape-bastard and a monster (and I believe its hinted at that it's lust for the ladies is just like papa's, though maybe not so explicitely told), they build the labrynth to hide that sucker in without offending the Gods.
That could be I got it from some version of the Founder Myth of Theseus, but a quick glance at Wiki for the Minotaur pretty much tells me I'm smoking crack and you've got the more classic tale down. I probably got some version written by some guy called 'Not-Greek' stuck in my head like the real thing. I withdraw my comment, etc...
frankly Zwei, I don't care if there are naked beings in the book, you already have my money. I typically prefer there not to be nudity, as I typically do my deepest reading of RPG books on the toilet, and that can lead to... plumbing issues.
HOWEVER, that being said, I would think context and tastefulness need to be your watchwords. the lust demon and minotaurs mentioned earlier, fine. but if I need to say to myself, "that isn't how you ride a horse..."
also, where transgenderism is involved, I feel it would have to make sense. What I mean by that is if the setting's medical technology is one where leeches and bloodletting are the standard, and treatment for a badly broken leg is amputation, gender reassignment surgery isn't going to be a thing.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947340Zweihander wont be doing anything special or new. But I also cant help but ponder why, if they are confident in the quality and presentation, does this require any virtue signalling on their part? Why can't the work speak for itself, and the audience be allowed to draw their own conclusions?
Because it's a fan-brew reprint of a game that you can get for cheap, with better production values, on eBay, and it needs every drop of faked up attention it can get?
I mean, I'll give the OP credit for passing himself off as legit in order to hawk his wares.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;947358FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".
Hermaphroditic hedonistic monstrosity = transgender. Duh!
Seriously though, I was wondering the same and thought "surely the OP is talking about -other- art in the book or something".
Quote from: remial;947364also, where transgenderism is involved, I feel it would have to make sense. What I mean by that is if the setting's medical technology is one where leeches and bloodletting are the standard, and treatment for a badly broken leg is amputation, gender reassignment surgery isn't going to be a thing.
Surgery isn't essential to be trans. Of course, there's the issue of how do you tastefully depict such in art (it's easier in fiction). And -then- there's the issue of if transgenders aren't over represented in RPGs at this point.
In certain settings, like Japan for instance, there is a lot of historical precedence for trans characters.
transgender can just mean cross-dressing, not necessarily a surgical procedure?
Yeah. Before modern science people didn't have much choice. Even today most people don't do a full transition.
I'm finding the implication that transgender = some kind of fetishized freak in this thread to be really offensive.
Transgender people come in all shapes and sizes. And they go through life being treated like freaks way too much already.
Feeling like one has been born in the wrong body is not a personal choice. It is a state of fundamental existential crisis for that person. One that way too often results in suicide.
But getting down to the artwork in this game? It's being as exploitive as any freak show is. That's my problem with it. It's a freak show. And that's why I find it offensive.
Freak shows are not about inclusiveness or appealing to diversity. They are entirely about exploitation.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;947358I think you crossed the line between "SEO hustler" and "annoying shill" back there somewhere. Waaaaay back there.
This thread just confirms it.
FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".
Yeah, I'll have to agree with this.
Quote from: Nexus;947331I have to wonder what the reaction to the art would have been without the statement in the OP.
Check Pat's reply--skip the last two words if you wish. I think it is spot on.
Quote from: Pat;947286Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines. The minotaur is drawn in fuzzy charcoal grays, except for the lines delineating his penis, which are stark black and sharp (the tip of the snout and horns are similar, but blend in more gradually). Same with the carnal demon, and in addition the demon is dressed in bizarre very modern-seeming fetish gear, has silicone tits, and that back leg is horrible. The nephlim is okay and the apparition is fine (though given the haggy face those are mighty perky boobs), but dicks on everything else makes it weird that the bog thing and especially the jabberwork are so obviously sexless (the poses make it hard to miss).
Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.
Uh guys, Fox already said that NONE of those pictures were the "inclusive" part. The inclusive part is showing artwork of humans of different races.
The pictures shown were some examples of the OTHER topic, nudity.
I specifically asked him if the Carnal Demon with tits and cock was supposed to be inclusive and he answered NO.
Kind of idiotic to keep harping on that specific point after that don't you think?
Eh, I was counting for Minotaur's penis to be at least usable as a standard WFRP 2e d10 damage weapon, given the amount of discussion in this thread about it. Also, I second the motion - give him back the "turtleneck".
I don't care whether or not there's pictures of naked people in an RPG book, all I care about is whether or not the RPG is good on its own merits.
Now, when it comes to sex and nudity, in my games I always go with a "Fade to Black" as it conveys what happens but doesn't run the risk of offending anyone or grossing them out. Now, as for nudity, I've had many PC's, both male and female end up nude, and it's almost always played for comedic effect. Why? Because I'm admittedly immature and I think naked people are funny.
I'll look into Zweihander though. Nudity and Minotaur dicks aside, it seems like a good fantasy RPG.
K got the free version. Holy shit it is a massive tome that is over 630 pages without art added to it. I fear the PoD cost and thank God himself that I am getting the PDF. Beyond a few complaints I find this book to be pretty good on paper.
Zwei, the art fails. It's not daring, transgressive or original enough to shock or inspire.
Your artist made weaksauce.
All you've achieved is hurting your FLGS sales. There are many store owners who aren't going to stock "D&D with Dicks" and if you slap an "Adults Only" sticker on it, the teen boys are gonna be unimpressed how badly you dashed their hopes.
As for your pandering to the media's current trans-fetish, it makes absolutely no sense in the context of a Faux-Hammer RPG...except you think there are dollars in the SJW pockets worth the pander.
Maybe you're right, but can you pander harder than Paizo?
Quote from: Simlasa;947264The Lost And The Damned books were full of disturbing imagery and owe their coveted status to that powerful vision and not pulling punches on the presentation.
Very true.
But Zwei's art doesn't throw any punches.
Quote from: Spike;947266Otherwise it feels like that SNL skit about Cheetos.
What skit was that?
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information? I came up with a few ideas:
1) show the picture to players running female characters and stoke fear in them by telling them they will have that cow dick in them if they get captured? (nope, that's sick)
2) show to your average teen player so they will start making "called shots" to hit the minotaur in the penis? (nope that's just juvenile)
3) show the picture to players to encourage them to collect bovine penises for war trophies to hang from their armor? (a miniature of that might be funny, but again nope).
4) spell component award? (I guess... if you have to)
#2 was my first thought about the Mino-dick.
#3 would assuredly happen with my players. My knuckleheads once played an all-gnome PC party of deranged mini psychopaths who after every combat, would arrange the corpses in bizarre sexual positions, preferably near a road.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947304So, edgy, juvenile, shocking, sexy, or just accurate depictions?
Ah, the AD&D spank bank!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947341Gotta hustle to get the word out.
Very true.
On this, I mightily agree with you.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947265Isn't "Accurate depiction of the subject matter" always a good enough reason?
Why must it be "compelling?"
Opening statement aside, I don't see what the big deal is. Some creatures in this world have primary and secondary sexual characteristics and don't normally cover them. This is how they look. Label the book as containing nudity so consumers can make an informed choice and go for it.
Quote from: Spinachcat;947428What skit was that?
.
It was recent... last week maybe? Alex Baldwin (alec?) was an ad guy selling superbowl commercial ideas to cheetos, competing with another agency. Every add they described had nothing at all to do with cheetos, just various social justice issues, followed by 'Cheetos!", while the other team kept giving more traditional 'fun' commercial ideas. What flipped my memory switch was when the Cheetos people started talking about how very sympathetic they were to all their Tran's friends and co-workers... if they actually had any.
For SNL it managed to be actually slightly funny. I may have chortled, but I certainly didn't giggle...
Just posted this over at Kickstarter:
QuoteHey gang, we had a long, hard talk internally last night.
While we can concede that some of the artwork needs to be changed, we also want to keep the integrity of our artistic vision intact regarding nudity. Our first step is to 'desexualize' the artwork, and address the penises and breasts in a more natural way. Some may be tactfully changed, whereas others may disappear entirely. However, we intend to keep a few creatures in their 'natural' state (such as the Nephilim & Skrzzak Broodmother). We are also going to readdress the Carnal Demon (daemonette) in a way that's less fetishized and offensive to our transgendered fans. I'll post another update once we make the changes.
And, as before, if you are dissatisfied with our approach, we'll give you a refund, no questions asked. Thanks!
So naughty bits still exposed in a few rare cases, but less sexualized and more natural. Thanks everyone for your comments - constructive, supportive and otherwise!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947310We portray characters from the perspective of real world races: Caucasian, Dravidian, Mongoloid and Negroid.
*) Dravidian is arguably more a matter of linguistics than ethnicity.
*) Mongoloid is an archaic term at best, and a slur in general, even if you're specifically talking about Mongolians.
*) Negroid... seems like a perfectly fine term to use. You should use it, a lot, in public, so that people will be clear who you're talking about.
(translation: even if you aren't a racist dipshit, using words like that guarantees that no one will believe you.)
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947310In addition, you can roughly count up an equal number of males, females and transgendered characters in the book.
So transgendered make up a third of your world's population? How'd that happen? Or is it just in art? How'd you depict that?
Wow....
"We're diverse! We have Mongloids and Negros in our game! And a whole bunch of transfolk! Like, every third person is trans!"
I think you should stop talking while you're ahead.
Quote from: Cruxador;947284Those penises don't look fully flacid and they aren't drawn with the same level of rough sketchiness that the rest of the designs are. Especially look at the smooth blending on that satyr glans (why is he even circumsized?) compared to the hair everywhere else. It makes the dick stand out like the art is saying "Look! A penis! Aren't we transgressive!". I don't think that's really appropriate for a dude just standing there with his axe. Why not make it a normal flaccid penis, the sort that (given his dense hair) should probably only barely peek out, with hair-clad scrotum framing it from behind and drooping almost as low as the shriveled foreskin typical of an unaroused individual. Alternately, go for the "mighty fucking bullcock" Black Vulmea mentioned, and make it explicitly a rape monster like the minotaur of lore, but the current half-measure is weird, it feels at best like an artistically unskilled addition, and at worst like the childish perversity that some other posters have perceived it as.
Found this on Kickstarter update 30/01/17:
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So - yes. It seems to have been a later addition - for whatever reason.
I agree on the circumcision. "Creatures" presumably don't have sufficient culture to go in for organised genital mutilation. Tauruses (Taurii?) seem to have sufficient society to have weapons and be trophy collecting so might have tribal traditions.
A quick look at the draft Zwei bestiary shows that the Taurus is a leader type beastman in a Gloranthan Broo tradition - so definitely more than a little "rapey".
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947322White European and American males aren't the only folks who play tabletop RPGs. Sorry that our approach doesn't appeal to you.
Today we learn if one can indeed pat oneself on the back with both hands.
Yes, apparently.
Quote from: Anselyn;9474581) So - yes. It seems to have been a later addition - for whatever reason.
2) I agree on the circumcision. "Creatures" presumably don't have sufficient culture to go in for organised genital mutilation. Tauruses (Taurii?) seem to have sufficient society to have weapons and be trophy collecting so might have tribal traditions.
3) A quick look at the draft Zwei bestiary shows that the Taurus is a leader type beastman in a Gloranthan Broo tradition - so definitely more than a little "rapey".
1) Yes, it was. We have made several adjustments throughout the past five months on artwork, up to and including drawing
cash and prizes on creatures where it synced up with the bestiary's entry.
2) And yep - we're on top of it now! Going to obfuscate its member, however, with tussles of hair and 'resheathing' it. Bulls are growers and not showers, after all.
3) Definitely. The influence was drawn primarily from Greek mythology (gods laying with people in the guise of beasts and half-beasts), blended with the Beastmen of the Warhammer world and given our own unique spin. For those who haven't read Early Access PDF, here's the societal description of the Grendel, followed by the listing for the Taurus creature pictured above:
Spoiler
THE GRENDEL
The actual origins of the Grendel remain the subject of much
debate. Old tales speak about the 'beastmen of the woods', a
punishment from the gods for mankind’s bloody ways – or
perhaps that they were the original inhabitants of the world,
swearing revenge upon their brethren who’d learned to walk
upright. Some even say that the Grendel grow their numbers
by cajoling mortals into drinking their mutative wine,
called ‘Dionysian Delights’. Modern scholars agree that they
are beasts who were corrupted by the Abyss and while many
Grendel follow the lurid call of chaos, they are still wholly
unnatural creatures of flesh and blood. No matter which tale
is true, they exist and have an unending hatred of humanoid
society – not because of their inadequacies, but because of
humanoids reluctance to submit to their desires.
Grendel are terrible hybrids of man and beast, taking a myriad
of grotesque, anthropomorphic forms. Though many
have traits of ungulate creatures, other bestial aspects such
as avians and reptiles have been observed. Most Grendel are
uniformly male creatures, maintaining sexual congress with
both men and women. A strange quality of the Grendel
makes them grossly desirable – many scholars deem this related
to their satyrian musk or possibly just the primal aspect
of the creatures. Entranced women are led to their mating
pen, which hold others in various stages of childbearing – it
is not an odd sight to see several scantily-clad men attending
to the gravid mothers as well. Babes born of such matings
emerge mostly of their mother’s race, although they display
bestial attributes – fur-covered bodies, perhaps small horns
or legs that end in hooves. As the child grows – and they
grow fast, reaching maturity in about three years – they become
more and more like the Grendel.
Their society is organized similar to a wolf pack, called a
‘Wild Hunt’. A Grendel’s place within the Wild Hunt is determined
by how bestial they appear – the young Broo, who
are nothing more than slightly animalistic humans, are lowest
in the hierarchy. The mighty Taurus are often the leaders
of the pack, grotesquely afflicted with satyriasis and drunken
rage. These alphas lead the Wild Hunt on raids, always have
first pick of slaves and deal out punishment to underlings.
Taurus are dethroned only through cunning violence, either
slinking off to join the rest of the pack or into the woods to
languish. The Grendel live a life of never-ending hedonism.
When not performing raids for slaves, food and wine, they
hold massive orgies and drug-addled ceremonies to their
god. The only warning signs they give on their drunken raids
are bestial braying and a terribly musky odor. Fire, death and
droppings are all that remain in their wake of destruction.
That is why families warn their children to stay away from
the woods – a Wild Hunt could sweep by in a second, scooping
up their children to lead a more barbaric life.
Despite their intense celebrations, they are truly tormented
creatures: victims to a foul blood coursing within their veins,
directed by nature to commit bestial acts. Captured Broo
often lament their lives, one torn between dual personalities
of humanity and bestiality – a life they never asked for.
TAURUS
Grendel lives are often short-lived; between accidental overdoses
of hallucinogens, exhaustion from sexual conquest or
simply dying by the sword during a raid, few Hircus see beyond
their fourth year. But there are those that survive and
conquer adversity, falling to the call of their bestial blood in
order to ascend past mere status as a beta.
These aged and powerful Grendel are known as Taurus and
they tower above their Wild Hunts in both stature and power.
The exact moment a Hircus becomes a Taurus is yet to be
pinpointed, but the youngest Taurus ever slain is said to have
been at least twenty years old – others in their second centuries
have been found still leading their Wild Hunts. Taurus
are tall and broadly muscled, reaching nearly the same
heights as an Ogre: crisscrossed with scars, bestial hoofs,
polycerate horns and tails grown massive and imposing. Few
have retained the ability to speak, only communicating in
growls, howls and brays that are interpreted by Wose. Taurus
lay upon thrones of their dead enemies, surrounding by
supplicants and slaves while fed a steady diet of food, alcohol
and drugs. They rule above all other Grendel, their worth
proved through combat and the strength of their seed.
Though a Wild Hunt may be home to several Taurus, only
one of them is favored the aforementioned luxuries of an alpha.
Any Taurus who believes they can serve the pack better
can issue a formal challenge to the current alpha, one that
culminates in tests of combat, sexual prowess and imbibing.
If the alpha is usurped, there is little shame in it – he
was proven not as capable and thus submits and joins the
throngs of the Wild Hunt once again. Motivations of the
alphas are inscrutable and varied, but there is one certainty:
that every Taurus’ desires to show humanoids the true ways
of bestiality – though these true ways involve nothing than
more than acts of rapine and slaughter. The alphas dream of a
world of pleasure populated solely by Grendel. Some will
even look towards fell gods for power, bringing their entire
Wild Hunt in line with the terrible wishes of the Abyssal
Princes, specifically the Outsider.
For folks who want to understand the full context of the artwork, you can download the Early Access PDF for free at CrowdOx: https://app.crowdox.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg (https://app.crowdox.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg)
Wait, there were complaints that the Carnal Demon, some sort of infernal embodiment of Lust and sexuality was too fetishized?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;9474601) We have made several adjustments throughout the past five months on artwork, up to and including drawing cash and prizes on creatures where it synced up with the bestiary's entry.
Cash and prizes?
I had to stop to figure out what the hell you meant. And that's a big part of why this comes across as so juvenile. Five year olds have cutesy names for genitalia, adults are more direct. Just say what you mean, instead of making us puzzle out all these bizarre euphemisms.
And san dee jota is completely right about the "real world" races. Caucasoid (not caucasian), mongoloid, and negroid are avoided almost everywhere because their history is inseparable from racism, and they're not useful classifications anyway. And lumping a language group/collection of ethnicities in with that mess is not a good idea.
Quote from: Cruxador;947284You should absolutely not default your races to a European/American melange, because that's both marginalizing and boring
My non-white players don't seem to mind playing quasi-European-race PCs.
They do always seem to give their quasi-Euro elves & humans black hair, though. :)
(I agree with rest of your post.)
Quote from: Nexus;947461Wait, there were complaints that the Carnal Demon, some sort of infernal embodiment of Lust and sexuality was too fetishized?
I know right? The one creature in the book that it absolutely makes perfect sense to fetishize.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;9474601) Yes, it was. We have made several adjustments throughout the past five months on artwork, up to and including drawing cash and prizes on creatures where it synced up with the bestiary's entry.
was one of the prizes "Pin the Penis on the Minotaur?"
Quote from: CRKrueger;947471I know right? The one creature in the book that it absolutely makes perfect sense to fetishize.
Why not add a battleship, as well? They pre-date leather culture.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;9474601) Yes, it was. We have made several adjustments throughout the past five months on artwork, up to and including drawing cash and prizes on creatures where it synced up with the bestiary's entry.
Wow you couldn't even get new pieces of artwork done to include in your faux sexual revolution? You just added "junk" on to existing art?
I know you are doing this with a budget and crowd funding but that just seems like the cheapest cop out ever...
Please tell me all of your editing is not being done through voluntary submissions on forum posts? (it looks that way from the hit to stun forums) You are planning on paying a real editor at some point correct?
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947477Wow you couldn't even get new pieces of artwork done to include in your faux sexual revolution? You just added "junk" on to existing art?
I know you are doing this with a budget and crowd funding but that just seems like the cheapest cop out ever...
Please tell me all of your editing is not being done through voluntary submissions on forum posts? (it looks that way from the hit to stun forums) You are planning on paying a real editor at some point correct?
We have one interior artist, and this is for a few reasons. Primarily, Dejan and I have a fantastic collaborative relationship. I also wanted the artwork's style to have continuity throughout the book.
But what you may not realize is that artwork is constantly changing and in motion. Some pieces gets dumped (for instance, we have a pile of over 45 pieces that went unused). New ones get added. Illustrations undergo constant changes and tweaks, until it's dialed in just right. We try something, and if it doesn't work, we change it. We're constantly engaging our public to get their feedback.
Do you have an agency or marketing background? I strongly suspect you don't, because that is how the creative process works.
Early Access PDF was released before we brought a professional editor onboard, however it underwent early edits over the past year with a handful of part-time collaborators. During Kickstarter, we put up stickied threads for the public to help go through the document in a collaborative fashion.
After being funded, we hired professional editor Matthew Pook, whose credentials speak for themselves. We were able to expedite the proofreading & editing process down to less than 45 days on a 630 page book. Let me tell you - as a fourteen year seasoned veteran in agency business - that's a phenomenal achievement. It wouldn't have happened without the public's help from the Strike To Stun forums.
Quote from: Nexus;947461Wait, there were complaints that the Carnal Demon, some sort of infernal embodiment of Lust and sexuality was too fetishized?
No, it's saying the Daemonette of Slannesh is "transgender" and thus the game is "inclusive."
Quote from: Pat;947475Why not add a battleship, as well? They pre-date leather culture.
It's not earth, it's supposed to be a Warhammer analogue. Google up Slaanesh images sometime.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;947482No, it's saying the Daemonette of Slannesh is "transgender" and thus the game is "inclusive."
wasn't it specifically pointed out that the Lust Demon wasn't intended to the "inclusive" aspect of the artwork, at least in the sense of transgendered. But complaints about it being over fetishized was specifically mention as occurring on social media exchanges?
QuoteHey gang, we had a long, hard talk internally last night.
While we can concede that some of the artwork needs to be changed, we also want to keep the integrity of our artistic vision intact regarding nudity. Our first step is to 'desexualize' the artwork, and address the penises and breasts in a more natural way. Some may be tactfully changed, whereas others may disappear entirely. However, we intend to keep a few creatures in their 'natural' state (such as the Nephilim & Skrzzak Broodmother). We are also going to readdress the Carnal Demon (daemonette) in a way that's less fetishized and offensive to our transgendered fans. I'll post another update once we make the changes.
And, as before, if you are dissatisfied with our approach, we'll give you a refund, no questions asked. Thanks!
I gathered from the above that some Trans fans found it over fetishized. Which seems like a curious complaint about a sex demon.
Edit: Zweihander's post 39 indicated that intent of the Lust Demon wasn't to be inclusive or represent transgendered people just, well, just a supernatural monster with hermaphroditic genitals.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947483It's not earth, it's supposed to be a Warhammer analogue. Google up Slaanesh images sometime.
Exactly one transgender monster is shown, and it's a creepy sex freak wearing gear from a real world modern subculture.
QuoteThe mighty Taurus are often the leaders of the pack, grotesquely afflicted with satyriasis and drunken rage.
Clearly unnaturally tainted by Chaos for as we know from the Bard,
QuoteDrink sir, is a great provoker of three things....nose painting, sleep and urine. Lechery, sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes the desire but takes away the performance.
Quote from: Pat;947488... creepy sex freak wearing gear from a real world modern subculture.
... and another instance, you have rat-men who speak the common tongue bearing WW1-styled weapons powered by magical green gunpowder that resembles a flamethrower. In another, you have a cat-like vampire in a smoking jacket with backwards-bending fingers who 'sucks' the spirit out of its hosts through mesmerization. And in another, an extra-dimensional demon made of an inexplicable geometry, comprised of metal, flesh and horns who doesn't speak in languages, but physically projects their words using illusionary pictographs above their head.
Welcome to Warhammer... or, in this case,
our interpretation of it.
Quote from: Pat;947488Exactly one transgender monster is shown, and it's a creepy sex freak wearing gear from a real world modern subculture.
I wouldn't call the Lust demon "transgender". Its not someone who identifies with a sex/gender other than their biological one. Its an infernal monster with feminine and masculine human sexual characteristics (you can't tell from the image if it has full female genitals as well). I'd imagine given the nature of the setting the representations of transgendered characters would be cross dressers unless magic were involved. I mean, yes it is creepy but its a servant of a Demon Lord of Lust. I don't think leather fetishism only appeared in the modern era. I doubt many of them did that aren't tied to modern developments.
Quote from: Pat;947488Exactly one transgender monster is shown, and it's a creepy sex freak wearing gear from a real world modern subculture.
That monster is not transgender. Transgender does not equal a female looking demon with a penis. To say it is: Is spreading ignorance, bigotry, and the freakshow view toward people who are transgender.
Being transgendered. Someone who feels they were born the wrong gender is not a choice. It is not a fetish. It's a serious medical condition.
Spreading bigotry and misinformation is extremely harmful to those with the condition. And it needs to stop.
Quote from: Snowman0147;947329Really people? Who fucking cares if some monsters have some naughty bits showing?
Is it an American thing? That whole thing were violence is good and wholesome, but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts.
And all this bitching only happens when decide to advertise like Paizo. Seriously this one of my to complaints as this shit had already proven to bite you in the ass.
Seriously if you never went that diversity sells pitch people would had look at that lust demon as a knock off daemonette and nothing more. Which brings up a real question. Why are you using knock off versions of warhammer daemons? I get you want to be close to the source, but can you use different demon princes?
Quote from: Simlasa;947513Is it an American thing? That whole thing were violence is good and wholesome, but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts.
Sadly yes it is. I blame the puritans for that flaw.
About the game, I don't care how much dicks and tits you have in the book, nor how many races you represent. If anything, a Warhammer-inspired book without naked bodies would be weirder, to me:).
Quote from: Anselyn;947458I agree on the circumcision. "Creatures" presumably don't have sufficient culture to go in for organised genital mutilation.
Having personal experience with circumcision, I disagree with calling it "mutilation", at least when it's about males;).
Quote from: AsenRG;947531Having personal experience with circumcision, I disagree with calling it "mutilation", at least when it's about males;).
In some cases, attacks on male circumcision have been perceived as being anti-Semitic in origin.
And some times, they're right.
Quote from: san dee jota;947534In some cases, attacks on male circumcision have been perceived as being anti-Semitic in origin.
And some times, they're right.
This wasn't anti-semitic; it was more anti-American. My perception was that this is considered normal in the US but is much rarer in Europe - and so the art defaulted to foreskin-free (and actually the artist may be European so I'm off target anyway).
A quick Google suggests the circumcision rate is probably falling in the US - and a bit higher than I thought in the UK [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision]. It does seem a culturally normalised unnecessity though.
Quote from: Simlasa;947513Is it an American thing? That whole thing were violence is good and wholesome, but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts.
No it is not an "American thing".
If you can't afford the channels to get nudity on your tv, re-examine your life choices and your RPG budget. For me, it does not even take "premiums channels" thanks to IFC on the basic package.
As for the "but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts", that is just a Libtard argument usually made by anti-gun Hollywood people right after they pimped their latest ultra violent gun movie. Funny how that happens.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947480We have one interior artist, and this is for a few reasons. Primarily, Dejan and I have a fantastic collaborative relationship. I also wanted the artwork's style to have continuity throughout the book.
But what you may not realize is that artwork is constantly changing and in motion. Some pieces gets dumped (for instance, we have a pile of over 45 pieces that went unused). New ones get added. Illustrations undergo constant changes and tweaks, until it's dialed in just right. We try something, and if it doesn't work, we change it. We're constantly engaging our public to get their feedback.
Do you have an agency or marketing background? I strongly suspect you don't, because that is how the creative process works.
What, are you mad bro?
I do work with the marketing group here but I'm also the general manager so I have my hands in everything from time to time.
I'm very well aware that art can change, be dumped, changed some more, brought back, yada yada. The problem is that the art you presented looks like it got brought back and placed into someone's hands that was not fully aware of the original concept. It looks like you cut a 14 year old loose to add some "cash and prizes" to what was originally some decent art work doen by someone else.
On top of that, you decided to use your product to make a political statement when it didn't need to. And then you pissed off some of the very people you were trying to pander to from the remarks I read on Kickstarter.
You had a bad week... shake it off and don't try to make it personal about me. I, along with a bunch of people here, just called you on your B.S. which I think you knew would likely happen here anyhow.
But ultimately, if I was not truly interested in buying your book and take on a condensed WHFRP 1e, I wouldn't be this deep in the thread.
Good job blatantly politicizing your product and alienating a lot of potential customers. :rolleyes:
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947547As for the "but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts", that is just a Libtard argument usually made by anti-gun Hollywood people right after they pimped their latest ultra violent gun movie. Funny how that happens.
And yet libtards aren't afraid to let LGBT people use the bathroom. Go figure.
(Libtard? Seriously? [sigh] Man, you guys sure circulate the talking points. Funny how THAT happens.)
It's a creative product. He can market it how he wants. I won't be buying it, but then, I don't purchase many new games. I do feel like going the anatomically correct route with the product doesn't do much to play up the announced "grim" nature of the work. But then, it's not my baby. thIt's the creator's. They can do with it what they want. I don't consider it a personal affront that the person's attitudes or politics play a role in it. It's just a damned game system, for goodness' sake.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947547No it is not an "American thing".
If you can't afford the channels to get nudity on your tv, re-examine your life choices and your RPG budget. For me, it does not even take "premiums channels" thanks to IFC on the basic package.
As for the "but naked ladies are 'dirty' and will turn the children into perverts", that is just a Libtard argument usually made by anti-gun Hollywood people right after they pimped their latest ultra violent gun movie. Funny how that happens.
That totally misses the point. What you can wank to in your basement isn't a total snapshot of the culture you live in - especially in the public sphere. If you want to have a look at what's considered acceptable in public look at what gets you various ratings for films. (from Wikipedia: Motion Picture Association of America film rating system)
ViolenceDepictions of violence are generally restricted to PG and above. The violence in a PG rated film will not be intense, while violence that is both intense and persistent will generally require at least an R rating. Violence is not prohibited in G rated films, but if present will be minimal.
NudityNudity is restricted to PG and above, although only brief nudity is permitted in a PG rated film. Nudity that is sexually oriented will generally require an R rating. As of 2010, the MPAA has added a descriptor of "male nudity" to films featuring said content.
So any sexual nudity is the shock equivalent of violence that is "intense and persistent", which I presume means something much more than a lot of mooks being offed. I'm not saying that violence is promoted as "good and wholesome" in that code - but actually all the way back into Westerns when a man's gotta do, what a man's gotta do: that is to solve problems with violence - it's a cultural norm.
Quote from: Snowman0147;947408K got the free version. Holy shit it is a massive tome that is over 630 pages without art added to it. I fear the PoD cost and thank God himself that I am getting the PDF. Beyond a few complaints I find this book to be pretty good on paper.
This the main thing that would keep me away, as my tastes have changed, regarding crunch and reference. But there certainly is an audience for heft. I'm just not in it.
Quote from: cranebump;947569This the main thing that would keep me away, as my tastes have changed, regarding crunch and reference. But there certainly is an audience for heft. I'm just not in it.
well, I don't know how much this game has changed from whfrp, but the original game was pretty light, probably somewhere around D6 star wars in crunch level; the bulk of the book was GM stuff and background.
combat was basically roll d100 against weapon skill, if the hit is successful, reverse the numbers for location. Then roll damage points. If it exceeds the hit points of the location, then roll for the critical hit effect. Thats essentially all there is to it, and its the most complex system in the game; most everything else is d100 or d10 roll under attribute.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947572well, I don't know how much this game has changed from whfrp, but the original game was pretty light, probably somewhere around D6 star wars in crunch level; the bulk of the book was GM stuff and background.
combat was basically roll d100 against weapon skill, if the hit is successful, reverse the numbers for location. Then roll damage points. If it exceeds the hit points of the location, then roll for the critical hit effect. Thats essentially all there is to it, and its the most complex system in the game; most everything else is d100 or d10 roll under attribute.
I see. Hmmm...well, how about chargen? About how long does it take to make a character. I would assume since it's "grim," quick chargen would make sense.
Is it something like Osric or the B/X Rules Compendium then? (trying to get a feel for what we have here).
Quote from: cranebump;947578I see. Hmmm...well, how about chargen? About how long does it take to make a character. I would assume since it's "grim," quick chargen would make sense.
Is it something like Osric or the B/X Rules Compendium then? (trying to get a feel for what we have here).
chargen is very similar to early editions of D&D, though doesn't map exactly to any of them. Pick one of 4 races, roll attributes, pick one of 4 classes, roll for profession, then roll for skills. Each chart to roll on is built upon the previous choices. The professions are the main difference from D&D's system, in that they pretty much replace levels. They determine starting equipment, skills (some skills for free, others much be rolled for, with the list based on race/class), and as xp is earned while pursuing a profession, it determines bonuses you can buy to your attributes. Once you advance as far as you like in a profession, you can choose one of the career exits to a new career, or start with another basic profession, depending on game circumstances.
Different in Zwieldhander. First you pick either human, or other race. If other race you roll to see what other race you are. Then you roll attributes. Then you roll alignments. Then you roll profession which there is about a hundred of them to start with.
Quote from: Anselyn;947544This wasn't anti-semitic; it was more anti-American. My perception was that this is considered normal in the US but is much rarer in Europe - and so the art defaulted to foreskin-free (and actually the artist may be European so I'm off target anyway).
A quick Google suggests the circumcision rate is probably falling in the US - and a bit higher than I thought in the UK [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision]. It does seem a culturally normalised unnecessity though.
Male circumcision does have a downside but the most common complaint I've heard is just as you say: its an unnecessary* medical procedure that permanently alters the subject's body that's inflicted on them without their consent often not even for spiritual reasons but out of sense of tradition. Its somewhat analogous to the surgeries performs on intersex individuals at birth to normalize their sexual characteristics in that sense. Some parents are even unaware they have a choice to refuse the procedure. Its a reasonable assumption that a circumcised penis is considered the norm in the US at the current time so it would understandable for a US artist to default to one unless specifically told not too.
Quote from: san dee jota;947534In some cases, attacks on male circumcision have been perceived as being anti-Semitic in origin.
And some times, they're right.
And sometimes, they're rather wrong. No idea what that specific case is, but I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt:).
Quote from: Anselyn;947544This wasn't anti-semitic; it was more anti-American. My perception was that this is considered normal in the US but is much rarer in Europe - and so the art defaulted to foreskin-free (and actually the artist may be European so I'm off target anyway).
A quick Google suggests the circumcision rate is probably falling in the US - and a bit higher than I thought in the UK [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision]. It does seem a culturally normalised unnecessity though.
To me, it's not culturally mandated. I'm Christian, and my doctor simply advised me to do it for health reasons rather late in life.
This puts me in the rare position to know the differences, and I find it a rather useful procedure;).
Now, a minotaur should probably be circumcised only if there was a reason, like him having been a human once.
Quote from: AsenRG;947628And sometimes, they're rather wrong. No idea what that specific case is, but I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt:).
There's a past history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies) of it that's enough to spook some Jewish groups.
Here (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/anti-semitism-and-germanys-movement-against-circumcision/266794/)'s a recent article talking about the issue in (as seen by an American Jew in Germany, granted).
And here's (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jewish-groups-blast-foreskin-man-comic-book-overly-anti-semitic-images-circumcision-article-1.125116) some analysis regarding the relation between "intactivism" and anti-Semitism in San Fran's 2011 anti-circumcision law.
Short version: not all people opposing circumcision hate Judaism and the Jews... but there are those who do.
Quote from: san dee jota;947656And here's (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jewish-groups-blast-foreskin-man-comic-book-overly-anti-semitic-images-circumcision-article-1.125116) some analysis regarding the relation between "intactivism" and anti-Semitism in San Fran's 2011 anti-circumcision law.
I was all set to mock this, but it does actually look like the motivation may be anti-Semitic there* (unless the article is lying, always a possibility). I would think the main targets of an anti-circumcision campaign should be the secular hospitals and their procedure, which is a lot more brutal (if technically less dangerous) than the Jewish or Muslim religious practice. (Funny that globally the main three groups who circumcise are Muslims, Jews, and Americans).
*Albeit this 'campaign' looks like it may just be one kooky anti-semite the ADL are making use of.
Quote from: S'mon;947657I was all set to mock this, but it does actually look like the motivation may be anti-Semitic there*
Well, like I keep saying, some times it really -isn't- about the Jews and some times it really -is-.
Yeah, but why did you have to post that? I didn't express doubt that the are anti-Semites who are against circumcision, I've seen such people.
I said that there are enough people who are only one of those things, as you basically confirmed, that we can't draw conclusions about someone's moral character even if you think their assessment of male circumcision is wrong.
What minotarus in Zweihanderz: a species, one off mutations, summoned beasts or the like?
After reading this entire thread (man, there are a lot of tangents!), nudity, different genders and/or races in a game work fine if they fit in with the game world. On the other hand, inserting any and/or all of them to earn social acceptance points seems very silly to me.
Based on my reading of the OP's intent, I'd say this is more about social acceptance points than about any of the things fitting into the world. The backtracking on some of the art implies it was less about adding detail to a world but pleasing out-of-game interest groups.
If I play a game set in 10th century Japan (or a facsimile) I wouldn't, nor would I expect any one else, complain about the lack of Caucasian races to play. They simply don't fit the world.
That's my 2 cents.
Quote from: Nexus;947506I wouldn't call the Lust demon "transgender". Its not someone who identifies with a sex/gender other than their biological one. Its an infernal monster with feminine and masculine human sexual characteristics (you can't tell from the image if it has full female genitals as well). I'd imagine given the nature of the setting the representations of transgendered characters would be cross dressers unless magic were involved. I mean, yes it is creepy but its a servant of a Demon Lord of Lust. I don't think leather fetishism only appeared in the modern era. I doubt many of them did that aren't tied to modern developments.
You're correct. I intended to put "transgender" in scare quotes. I was responding to CRKrueger's dismissal of the sexism, and when that happens I tend to overthink and overedit my posts, and sometimes omit things. Here's the point:
1. The carnal demon is wearing gear associated with leather culture, a real world, modern subculture. Heavily fetishized BDSM garb in specfic, which has a widespread negative interpretation.
2. The carnal demon is also associated with transgenderism. A male body, but with silicone tits and a dick and a ridiculously sexualized but effeminate pose. Which is another set of negative stereotypes, rather than anything real.
Negative depictions by themselves are fine. If you're only allowed to depict certain groups positively, they lose some of their humanity. But this is the only example in the KS update, so we have zero positive examples. Sexualized depictions are also fine, for similar reasons. But this isn't just sexualized, it's evoking negative stereotypes. Which, since it's a lust demon, could be appropriate. But the stereotypes are
modern, instead of being culturally- or context- appropriate. There's zero thought involved in rethinking how such a creature might appear in the setting. Instead, it's pandering to the
readers' worst prejudices and expectations by invoking very specific (modern, Western) cultural cues. It's literally designed to make a modern viewer go "eww traps are creepy freaks". And
that's the problem.
This is more detail than I was interested in going in to, but I thought it was just so obvious.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;947508That monster is not transgender. Transgender does not equal a female looking demon with a penis. To say it is: Is spreading ignorance, bigotry, and the freakshow view toward people who are transgender.
Fuck you, that was the point.
Quote from: Pat;9476871. The carnal demon is wearing gear associated with leather culture, a real world, modern subculture. Heavily fetishized BDSM garb in specfic, which has a widespread negative interpretation.
Leather and BSDM gear might have a 'negative interpretation' among prudish vanilla types, but generally I see it presented as 'naughty fun'.
Quote2. The carnal demon is also associated with transgenderism.
By who? The same types who think BSDM is 'negative'? It's just a take on a Warhammer Daemonette... and has nada to do with real world issues.
OP this is what happens when you virtue signal. You get people reading too deep into your knock off daemonettes when they are just knock off daemonettes. Besides most of the people who would appreciate the signalling DON'T EVEN PLAY RPGS!
All you did was make yourself look stupid. You ended up getting people into a twist with a knock off daemonette. Plus Negroids? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you trying to not sell books?
Quote from: Simlasa;947693By who? The same types who think BSDM is 'negative'? It's just a take on a Warhammer Daemonette... and has nada to do with real world issues.
Exactly what I said before. It is a knock off daemonette. See this is the danger of what happens when you virtue signal. You just get all these progressive/regressive/sjw types constantly judging your product and bitching about any "flaw" they find. The OP basically shot himself in the foot because he does not have a PC product.
Quote from: Snowman0147;947697Exactly what I said before. It is a knock off daemonette. See this is the danger of what happens when you virtue signal. You just get all these progressive/regressive/sjw types constantly judging your product and bitching about any "flaw" they find. The OP basically shot himself in the foot because he does not have a PC product.
I think there have been some criticisms here that have little to do with the sjw set. I can recall at least one where the poster commented as a concerned parent. Also feel like this is the least sjw forum of this type around. If anything, we're littered with "fascists." :-)
That said, I think your observation that the framing of the thread question invites the wrong types of criticism is spot on. Maybe just a simpler question is in order? We get the disclaimer regarding the nature of of the artwork, but we get asked the wider question of inclusivity. Maybe we should just have been asked what we thought of the artwork in general. Then maybe some of the answers might be more straightfoward and less politicized. I mean, there was a lot of commentary revolving around "what do you think of the naughty bits?" And then there's the commentary that goes beyond the page and into the tire fire that is world view, which I'm not sure is helpful to the OP, but is nevertheless elicited by the question posed.
QuoteNegroids
A liberal uses "negroids" to virtue signal and be inclusive. What a buffoon! You can't make it up. LoL!
Quote from: cranebump;947700Maybe we should just have been asked what we thought of the artwork in general.
I actually do like the artwork... but agree with sentiments that the 'naughty bits' are uninspired. Those cocks could be a lot more threatening/angry/mutated.
I remember the first time I saw my baptist youth group leader's penis. He was uncircumcised and it scared me... 'what the heck happened there!' If I'd had proper illustrations in my games back then I would have been spared that moment of horror.
This game is giving me FATAL flashbacks.
Quote from: Simlasa;947705...the first time I saw my baptist youth group leader's penis.
There's a phrase for ya.
Has anyone read In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak? No reason, just wondering.
Also wondering why the Minotaur has what appears to be a goat, sheep, or maybe musk-ox head.
Other than Dark Albion, has there been an OSR Warhammer clone?
Because of this thread, I got a PM asking me to dabble into it, but I wonder if its already been done.
There is a great B/X-WRFP hack called Small But Vicious Dog that is only 36 pages.
Quote from: Spinachcat;947748Other than Dark Albion, has there been an OSR Warhammer clone?
Because of this thread, I got a PM asking me to dabble into it, but I wonder if its already been done.
zweihander (which the authors shills constantly around here, started as a warhammer clone. Dont know how much its changed
Quote from: Voros;947752There is a great B/X-WRFP hack called Small But Vicious Dog that is only 36 pages.
Thank you! I will check it out!
So, reading the comments on the Kickstarter yesterday, I came across:
Quote from: Dave SherohmanMy only complaint about these images is that they feel too Warhammer-derivative to me: That carnal demon isn't a reference to daemonettes, it *is* a daemonette. The jabberwock isn't just the same design as the WFRP1 jabberwocky, I'm pretty sure it's in the same pose as the one in the WFRP1 core book. Etc.
which I couldn't help but agree with. But it put some wheels in motion in my head about how I'd personally go about re-interpreting the Warhammer Daemons if I were to want to capture the concept but not copy the GW designs, and so sitting in class this afternoon I sketched these four...
Daemon of Lust(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16996182_10154403565456238_6912675583635672934_n.jpg?oh=88a3d6f81196e38c1fd3629f7932e59e&oe=593C846A)
Daemon of Plague(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16864681_10154403565481238_7003527458465242201_n.jpg?oh=1ff08e24268920ea45e2008fb905e12c&oe=593C0FD7)
Daemon of Secrets(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16998168_10154403565476238_6597234044702661686_n.jpg?oh=fdbbc18d3c1e6a14035a6c80df2ff323&oe=5924D796)
Daemon of Rage(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16864408_10154403565486238_6005603118472200663_n.jpg?oh=627834c372b2e45f06ec81a227272f0f&oe=593A02CC)
Tristram your art is very nice & certainly vastly better than that of the OP! :D
I really like those pieces, as well. Brain 'asplode, Illuminati everywhere, exhibitionist plague bird, and tentacle Harley... they capture the different themes in very obvious ways.
Why do demons of lust always have tits?
A lust demon could just as easily have gaping anus for a mouth with a bunch of dripping tongues writhing out that terminate in groping hands and ogling eyes. If you want to get edgy, anyway. If you still want it to have tits you could make the lust demon a turgid, phallus shaped monstrosity except that the testicles are the breasts, and eight women's legs arranged like the legs of a spider, or octopus tentacles but with nipples instead of suction cups.
I'm saying you can get creative and original with it.
Don't just stick Halloween horns and tentacles on a generic hot chick though. That's boring and lazy.
Quote from: Cave Bear;947773Why do demons of lust always have tits?
A lust demon could just as easily have gaping anus for a mouth with a bunch of dripping tongues writhing out that terminate in groping hands and ogling eyes. If you want to get edgy, anyway. If you still want it to have tits you could make the lust demon a turgid, phallus shaped monstrosity except that the testicles are the breasts, and eight women's legs arranged like the legs of a spider, or octopus tentacles but with nipples instead of suction cups.
I'm saying you can get creative and original with it.
Don't just stick Halloween horns and tentacles on a generic hot chick though. That's boring and lazy.
Speaking personally, it would depends on if the lust demon was supposed to be tempting or exotic but attractive or an example of sexuality twisted into something inhuman and monstrous (body horror, IOW). A figurative pantheon could easily contain several types, "traditional" succubi/incubi and hentai tentacle rape beasts and then some varying according by what they're meant to invoke (lust, revulsion, terror, etc).
Of course, if look at some of the porn floating around on the internet you can never tell exactly what a particular image might inspire in some viewers ;)
Quote from: S'mon;947767Tristram your art is very nice & certainly vastly better than that of the OP! :D
Its presents a different feel, not as traditional but I wouldn't say its vastly better, IMO. And its comparing some quick sketches to more refined pieces.
Quote from: S'mon;947767Tristram your art is very nice & certainly vastly better than that of the OP! :D
Thanks; I don't know about that, I like the OP's art Okay (minus the pinned-on penii), but I wanted to explore something different from copying GW.
Quote from: Cave Bear;947773Why do demons of lust always have tits?
Because men lust after tits.
A lust demon could just as easily have gaping anus for a mouth with a bunch of dripping tongues writhing out that terminate in groping hands and ogling eyes. If you want to get
Quoteedgy, anyway. If you still want it to have tits you could make the lust demon a turgid, phallus shaped monstrosity except that the testicles are the breasts, and eight women's legs arranged like the legs of a spider, or octopus tentacles but with nipples instead of suction cups.
Sure, one can Cronenberg it up, but I was going for "lust" not "lewd"
QuoteDon't just stick Halloween horns and tentacles on a generic hot chick though. That's boring and lazy.
Well, just to be clear - its not a hot chick, look closely and you'll see that its a skinless octopi thing with a hot chick's skin grafted onto it.
I have always felt that GW's 'Chaos' is a little too orderly. I know that's partly the limitations of manufacturing miniatures but imagine regiments of daemons where every figure is truly unique.
Quote from: Spinachcat;947748Other than Dark Albion, has there been an OSR Warhammer clone?
Because of this thread, I got a PM asking me to dabble into it, but I wonder if its already been done.
Small But Vicious Dog is excellent and inspired, but unfortunately not very playable.
There is also a Runequest revision of WFRP floating around, but I cannot seem to find it anywhere.
Love the artwork Tristram. Have you offered your services to game designers? Seem publish worthy.
Quote from: Wraith;947704A liberal uses "negroids" to virtue signal and be inclusive. What a buffoon! You can't make it up. LoL!
What word do conservatives use?
Quote from: cranebump;947797What do conservatives use?
"urban". :D
Quote from: Nexus;947798"urban".
Heh...good one...
Quote from: Voros;947795Love the artwork Tristram. Have you offered your services to game designers? Seem publish worthy.
Nothing that's come to anything yet. Mostly I just don't have the time right now for anything more regular than sketches, at least not until I finish my degree.
Quote from: Spinachcat;947764Thank you! I will check it out!
GURPShammer 2.0 is also floating around out there. It's more comprehensive than SBVD and actually playable. But GURPS... meh.
Quote from: S'mon;947767Tristram your art is very nice & certainly vastly better than that of the OP! :D
I can't say anything about "better", too much eye of the beholder*, but I can say that I, myself, like it better.
*And a beholder is part of the d20 IP, so let's not mix things up:p!
Quote from: Cave Bear;947773Why do demons of lust always have tits?
A lust demon could just as easily have gaping anus for a mouth with a bunch of dripping tongues writhing out that terminate in groping hands and ogling eyes. If you want to get edgy, anyway. If you still want it to have tits you could make the lust demon a turgid, phallus shaped monstrosity except that the testicles are the breasts, and eight women's legs arranged like the legs of a spider, or octopus tentacles but with nipples instead of suction cups.
I'm saying you can get creative and original with it.
Don't just stick Halloween horns and tentacles on a generic hot chick though. That's boring and lazy.
Because they're supposed to evoke lust:)? That's why the incubus and succubus are the same demon: it's shapechanging so it could evoke the lust of people attracted to either sex.
If you see a dripping tongue with groping hand, I'd personally just go "slimy rosy tentacle, stab it to death - a spear from a distance preferred, or cut off the tentacles first";). Anything remotely sexual will simply not register for me.
Your other suggestion is even worse. Gaping anus...how do I know it's an anus and not just Generic Demonic Mouth-Replacing Opening? By the contents?
If the contents match, then, with all due respect, you've just designed a shit demon, not a lust demon:D!
Quote from: Nexus;947775Speaking personally, it would depends on if the lust demon was supposed to be tempting or exotic but attractive
What's the difference between "tempting" and "exotic but attractive"?
Quoteor an example of sexuality twisted into something inhuman and monstrous (body horror, IOW).
The problem with body horror is that it only translates into one emotion: aggressive disgust. While fitting for a Warhammer-inspired game, that's not really what Slaanesh would want you to feel...:D
QuoteA figurative pantheon could easily contain several types, "traditional" succubi/incubi and hentai tentacle rape beasts and then some varying according by what they're meant to invoke (lust, revulsion, terror, etc).
Exactly.
QuoteOf course, if look at some of the porn floating around on the internet you can never tell exactly what a particular image might inspire in some viewers ;)
I'll give you that:D!
But let's just say a demon that's not a shape-changer would have a hard time being attractive to most mortals if it looked like some the porn you referenced.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947781Well, just to be clear - its not a hot chick, look closely and you'll see that its a skinless octopi thing with a hot chick's skin grafted onto it.
Yeah, that was an excellent touch, IMO;)!
(I always try to add IMO when discussing art, because it's even more subjective than games, IME:D).
Quote from: AsenRG;947818What's the difference between "tempting" and "exotic but attractive"?
Degree of anatomical difference mostly. An attractive figure with say, small horns might be tempting, a crimson skinned, goat legged, forked tailed but otherwise attrative humanoid might be considered "exotic but attractive". Like most other standards of appearance its largely subjective. Some people found Dren from Splice Exotic but attractive, others found her to be horrific.
QuoteThe problem with body horror is that it only translates into one emotion: aggressive disgust. While fitting for a Warhammer-inspired game, that's not really what Slaanesh would want you to feel...:D
Depends on the viewer really. Tristam's Lust Demon isn't unlike some creatures depicted in more unusual porn. Eye of the Beholder and all that. Some body horror is overtly sexual. Its the mixture of attraction and revulsion that gives it impact.
QuoteBut let's just say a demon that's not a shape-changer would have a hard time being attractive to most mortals if it looked like some the porn you referenced.
Beats me, I've never taken or seen a poll. People find many strange things attractive, often more than they admit too publicly.
I took the time to read the entire thread before I went and looked at the art that is supposed to be featured. That art is not very appealing, and the dicks have nothing to do with it. It just looks rather crappy to me. Oh well, it's not like I was ever going to by z-hander in any event, but now I won't even fish for free downloads if the art is going to be that bad.
Quote from: Nexus;947331I have to wonder what the reaction to the art would have been without the statement in the OP.
Quote from: Wraith;947563Good job blatantly politicizing your product and alienating a lot of potential customers. :rolleyes:
I'm sorta in the same boat.
So @ZWEIHÄNDER, exactly what were you trying to achieve with this, and did you succeed?
Tristram, I absolutely love your Daemon of Secrets!!
One of my favorite depictions of a lust demon was in In Nomine, I believe Superiors II. The art was of a wholly clothed, gender ambiguous human leaning against an entryway with their shirt slightly open and giving the viewer smoldering bedroom eyes and a smirk. The model was very reminiscent of Jaye Davidson, from The Crying Game & Stargate, yet with homage to the painting of Ophelia.
Sometimes less is very much more.
Quote from: Spike;947266Eh. I'm just fine with seeing tits and cocks all over the place, I guess. I'm not too worried about the artistic statement behind inclusion, and frankly I AM a bit tired of everyone trying to decide for me if I can, or cannot be trusted to see tig ol' bitties and whatnot.
I'm a bit... headscratching... over the Transgender and Intersex inclusion, unless you're referring to things like the lust demon, as the rate of occurrence is far far lower than the current mania for talking about transgender and intersex would have you believe, at least in any world remotely like the real one. Its a bit like that weird couple of paragraphs in the 5e D&D book, it doesn't really add anything meaningful in and of itself, it's just a bit of virtue signalling and pandering that is more annoyance than anything else.
Dunno why I'm even commenting, since I didn't even know you were flogging a game until I read the first post. For all I know this is the RPG based on Corruption of Champions/deviant art, and I'm way off base, in which case, rock on and let your freak flag fly high and proud.
Otherwise it feels like that SNL skit about Cheetos.
I love you Spike. I knew about his game because he pimped it everywhere even in my 57 home churches. But the church thing is totally my issue. It's an Obrimos thing... all about those pesky yantras you never need to bother your brain about it. From what I have read it's actually solid for Warhammer most recognize. Haven't seen the magic though and that's the make or break thing for me.... obviously.:)
Quote from: AsenRG;947818I can't say anything about "better", too much eye of the beholder*, but I can say that I, myself, like it better.
:) I mainly try to please myself (which I do sometimes for a short period at least), but when I do finish my game I hope my stuff appeals to an audience substantial enough to justify a print run.
QuoteWhat's the difference between "tempting" and "exotic but attractive"?
Rum vs tequila?
Quote from: Spinachcat;947846Tristram, I absolutely love your Daemon of Secrets!!
thanks, that one was just so random, originally I'd done just a giant hand with an eye in the palm, mouths on each of the fingertips and then a dozen small feet, which was fun but didnt turn out to well. May give that another pass someday. I really liked the snake for arms, I may use that again at some point.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;947833So @ZWEIHÄNDER, exactly what were you trying to achieve with this, and did you succeed?
Read within:
Quote from: KickstarterHey gang,
We appreciate everyone's feedback on the recent batch of artwork for the bestiary. It's a critical part of our design process, and a way for us to self-check ourselves against the needs and wants of the community.
Following this, we spent the weekend revising a number of creatures from the bestiary. This includes dialing back the explicitness, and revamping a handful of creatures whose images could be taken out of context. The changes manage to 'sanitize' some of the images, while keeping with our vision of the bestiary.
The following includes revised images and a handful of ones we haven't made public yet. Kickstarter's interface won't allow us to dial in the image size correctly, so they may appear to be of lower quality than they actually are.
We'll work on releasing Professions and Races images later this week, as to better explain our approach to real-world racial and gender inclusiveness in the character artwork.
Thanks everyone, and happy gaming!
-d.fx
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1817859 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1817859)
The new Taurus I think is a step backward. The new Carnal Demon I like better than the original. The Nephelim I could go either way on.
They seem dull to me.
Why ditch the nudity?
Quote from: HappyDaze;947830I took the time to read the entire thread before I went and looked at the art that is supposed to be featured. That art is not very appealing, and the dicks have nothing to do with it. It just looks rather crappy to me. Oh well, it's not like I was ever going to by z-hander in any event, but now I won't even fish for free downloads if the art is going to be that bad.
Yeah - it's a bit subpar as far as RPG artwork goes even aside from being black & white. (though far better than I could do :P) Maybe it's in part because they have (apparently - from another post in this thread) well over 600 pages to scatter artwork over, so they can't afford to get high end stuff. Really good art is expensive.
Quote from: Nexus;947929They seem dull to me.
Yeah, they're nice enough drawings but nothing about them is catching my interest. At least the nudity of the previous versions suggested a certain 'otherness' to the creatures. I'd suspect it's the art direction more than the artist though.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947936Yeah - it's a bit subpar as far as RPG artwork goes even aside from being black & white.
What is 'par' for RPG artwork these days?
To me they're competent drawings, consistent style on the 'gritty' end of the spectrum. They've got nothing on the old Warhammer artwork, especially in the Lost & Damned books, but I certainly prefer them to a lot of what I've seen of bland-as-fuck 5e and Pathfinder artwork.
Quote from: Nexus;947929They seem dull to me.
I like the style okay, and I like the Facedancer (the Nosferatu is way too WoD, not remotely classic Warhammer or setting appropriate), but some of them are just direct rip-offs of Warhammer, which seems...
ill advised to me, especially in regards to that Skaven.
For all the etheric mood from the smoky shading, it constrast so heavily with the stark outline detail. And the "now with added wang!" seems almost like a comedic afterthought. Especially so since most of these creatures are assumed extra-dimensional.
"Now with more tits & wang!" is not really doing service to these works. They somehow take an etheric/astral horror, already rather grounded by fine line detail amid hazy tones leaving little to the imagination, and demystify them further as everyday biology beasties. There's no distortion, no mystery, no menace.
Something about the mood is off. And I think, as much as needless grafted content is an issue, it has something to do with the tension between the art's high detail & hazy value. They are both competing for the idea of the monster, but unlike it spilling forth stark from a smoky portal, it's too overlapping and feels like a bait 'n switch. It's more like a porn show passing off like bad burlesque: *blam* "there it is! mysterious, isn't it?" "not anymore, really..."
edit: About the new stuff, I dig the formorian crone. The nosferatu looks like more tired White Wolf. I am still conflicted on the art style. It feels like it is not taking advantage of its chiaroscuro leanings. Or maybe a white background really messes with that mood for me, as the sketch is almost a negative drawing of what the chiaroscuro painting could be?
Quote from: Marleycat;947865I love you Spike.
I know.
Quote from: Spike;947953I know.
Does this mean you're going to be frozen in carbonite now?
Quote from: Opaopajr;947952There's no distortion, no mystery, no menace.
Yeah! What he/she/they said!
For whatever it is worth, stylistically I don't really care for the art. Not bad art, just not for me. Besides that, I'm not offended by the depiction of dicks and tits per se, but it does/did seem a bit gratuitous and over-emphasized. As far as the statement is concerned, maybe I'm just a jaded asshole, but I'm just so fucking sick of the idea that "everyone has got to accept everything and make everything acceptable to everyone" attitude that is permeating society. Granted, I'm in a grouchy fucking mood right now, but Jesus-titty-fucking Christ I am so sick of the friggin SJW/Politically Correct/Accept Everything horseshit.
Okay. I'm an asshole. Oh well. I don't like everything. I'm ok with that.
I don't mean anything against you personally, Zweihander, but the statement just kinda set me off.
Otherwise it sounds like your project is a good one with a lot of effort by dedicated people, and that is admirable.
Ignore my shit-fit and fight the good fight. I played some WFRP 1E decades ago and thought it was interesting and a nice change of pace on occasion.
So the Carnal Demon, ie. The Supernatural, Evil creature embodying all of humanity's sexual desires, from vanilla to Sodom & Gomorrah levels, now has its nipples covered because that's just Beyond the Fucking Pale.
Instead of "adding cocks to everything" you go with "sanitizing the game to get a G rating"? Your KS comments are already telling you you went too far back the other way. Why you're listening to people who have no idea what the fuck the Warhammer world is, or admit they aren't going to buy the product is beyond me, but whatever.
Quote from: AsenRG;947818I can't say anything about "better", too much eye of the beholder*, but I can say that I, myself, like it better.
Yeah, I just meant I liked it better. The lack of painted-on cocks certainly helps.
Quote from: Nexus;947956Does this mean you're going to be frozen in carbonite now?
Y'know... someone's got a smiley for that.
Quote from: Nexus;947826Degree of anatomical difference mostly. An attractive figure with say, small horns might be tempting, a crimson skinned, goat legged, forked tailed but otherwise attrative humanoid might be considered "exotic but attractive". Like most other standards of appearance its largely subjective. Some people found Dren from Splice Exotic but attractive, others found her to be horrific.
Depends on the viewer really. Tristam's Lust Demon isn't unlike some creatures depicted in more unusual porn. Eye of the Beholder and all that. Some body horror is overtly sexual. Its the mixture of attraction and revulsion that gives it impact.
Never able to understand the revulsion part, have I been:). What revolts me, makes me either indifferent or aggressive, not horny.
QuoteBeats me, I've never taken or seen a poll. People find many strange things attractive, often more than they admit too publicly.
True, but not all of them find the same strange things attractive;).
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947899Rum vs tequila?
Rum:D!
Quote from: CRKrueger;948000So the Carnal Demon, ie. The Supernatural, Evil creature embodying all of humanity's sexual desires, from vanilla to Sodom & Gomorrah levels, now has its nipples covered because that's just Beyond the Fucking Pale.
Instead of "adding cocks to everything" you go with "sanitizing the game to get a G rating"? Your KS comments are already telling you you went too far back the other way. Why you're listening to people who have no idea what the fuck the Warhammer world is, or admit they aren't going to buy the product is beyond me, but whatever.
Beats me as well, but such is publishing these days, it seems;).
Quote from: S'mon;948014Yeah, I just meant I liked it better. The lack of painted-on cocks certainly helps.
+1
Quote from: AsenRG;948034What revolts me, makes me either indifferent or aggressive, not horny.
While I'm supposed to say "arousal is subjective" and all that sort of stuff, there comes a point where it's okay to call a paraphilia a paraphilia.
Quote from: AsenRG;948034Never able to understand the revulsion part, have I been:). What revolts me, makes me either indifferent or aggressive, not horny.
True, but not all of them find the same strange things attractive;).
Good thing I didn't say they did...
"What I find erotic is exciting and sexy, what you find erotic is a twisted perversion." is pretty common attitude. There's almost nothing harder to "get" than someone else's kinks and turn ons and almost nothing easier to judge. There's a ton of them I don't understand, some of that gives me the creeps but are, nonetheless, popular. Humans are weirdos.
Quote from: CRKrueger;948000So the Carnal Demon, ie. The Supernatural, Evil creature embodying all of humanity's sexual desires, from vanilla to Sodom & Gomorrah levels, now has its nipples covered because that's just Beyond the Fucking Pale.
Instead of "adding cocks to everything" you go with "sanitizing the game to get a G rating"? Your KS comments are already telling you you went too far back the other way. Why you're listening to people who have no idea what the fuck the Warhammer world is, or admit they aren't going to buy the product is beyond me, but whatever.
This is a case of American prudish instincts. Boobs are alright, but when it comes to dicks, suddenly people are uncomfortable.
Regardless, there are cases of nudity still in the Bestiary. However, the more pernicious ones we showed the public were eliminated to meet both the community's needs and to satisfy our distributor. In brief: rated X became rated R - we just had to get a little more clever with penises and breasts in the work.
At this point, I'd like to see a rpg that openly included nudity and sexually explicit material in a manner that complimented and felt like a part of the world and was handled in an entertaining evocative manner (even if its was "just" for titillation). I'd also like a unicorn that craps gold bricks. ;) Just getting people to agree what those criteria would mean would be Hell of a feat.
I think this thread indicates that people are more offended by the announcement than they are by minotaur penises. It's an odd landmark in the internet age.
Quote from: Nexus;948044At this point, I'd like to see a rpg that openly included nudity and sexually explicit material in a manner that complimented and felt like a part of the world and was handled in an entertaining evocative manner (even if its was "just" for titillation). I'd also like a unicorn that craps gold bricks. ;) Just getting people to agree what those criteria would mean would be Hell of a feat.
Isn't that what Venger Satanis' RPGs are all about? I've only read the reviews, but sleaze is ingrained into the work and world he presents. Basically, Heavy Metal, if it were turned into an RPG.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948048Isn't that what Venger Satanis' RPGs are all about? I've only read the reviews, but sleaze is ingrained into the work and world he presents. Basically, Heavy Metal, if it were turned into an RPG.
I haven't had the opportunity to look at them though I've heard of them.
Quote from: David Johansen;948046I think this thread indicates that people are more offended by the announcement than they are by minotaur penises. It's an odd landmark in the internet age.
That and the weird relationship rpgs have had with concepts of moral guardianship since at least the late 70s/early 80s. But it's really glaring. Must be doubly so as a game writer/publisher, as even a lack of statement is considered a statement, and not including nipplage/genitalia where some expect it might be construed as cowing to (possibly imagined) pressure. There seems to be no good option. My guess is that the best policy is to just have a little blurb in your book saying something like, "much discussion has occurred in this industry over questions related to gender, sexuality, gratuitous use of sex and nudity (especially in artwork), and other socio-political issues. This product wishes to be an apolitical product, while recognizing that that is impossible." Or something to that effect, although that to might cause an uproar.
I don't have any real advise to you ZH. My gut tells me that including nudity is more trouble than it is worth. Certainly dismissing something as "American prudish instincts" isn't going to make them go away. Either way, you have my sympathies on this conundrum.
'Probably would have been less of an issue if it had been better communicated during the actual campaign that the artwork would be NSFW (as in, full-on sexual nudity).
I don't really care either way (I love James Raggi's stuff and Kingdom Death is awesome) but I was kind of surprised when the announcement came out of nowhere.
I'll admit that all the cries of "PURITANS! PRUDES! CUCKS!" is pretty hilarious. I wasn't aware that GRIM DARK meant "cocks everywhere".
meh...controversy sells. My distributor tells me that the badly edited and largely unplayable T5 sold way more copies than it would have if it'd been perfect out of the gate.
As for grim dark, not just penises everywhere but vast penises from which there is no escape as they blot out the sun and wail the battle cries of their dark gods.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;948051My gut tells me that including nudity is more trouble than it is worth. Certainly dismissing something as "American prudish instincts" isn't going to make them go away. Either way, you have my sympathies on this conundrum.
Barbarians of Lemuria freed the nipple, so did Spears of Dawn, I don't recall anyone giving a shit. If Fox had kept his mouth shut it wouldn't have been auch a thing, but I suspect he's doing the "there is no bad publicity" thing where for every hundred people screaming on the internet who isn't buying your product, their noise reaches the few who do.
Quote from: Necrozius;948052'Probably would have been less of an issue if it had been better communicated during the actual campaign that the artwork would be NSFW (as in, full-on sexual nudity).
I don't really care either way (I love James Raggi's stuff and Kingdom Death is awesome) but I was kind of surprised when the announcement came out of nowhere.
I'll admit that all the cries of "PURITANS! PRUDES! CUCKS!" is pretty hilarious. I wasn't aware that GRIM DARK meant "cocks everywhere".
cucks?
Quote from: Nexus;948058cucks?
4chan slang. Short for 'cuckolds'.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948042This is a case of American prudish instincts. Boobs are alright, but when it comes to dicks, suddenly people are uncomfortable.
Hahaha oh wait, you're serious.
First rule of producing a commercial work: know your customers.
Second rule: don't insult them.
Quote from: David Johansen;948054meh...controversy sells. My distributor tells me that the badly edited and largely unplayable T5 sold way more copies than it would have if it'd been perfect out of the gate.
Maybe - but I doubt that would have been the case if they didn't already have a market from T1-T4. (And since when does bad editing = controversy?)
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948042This is a case of American prudish instincts. Boobs are alright, but when it comes to dicks, suddenly people are uncomfortable.
OR apparently not every red blooded A-M-E-R-I-CAN is confused on which bathroom to use as the media would have you believe. When I pop open a PBR and read that statement "Boobs are alright", I'm like, Fuck an A they are!
Don't forget all of those Puritans came from jolly ole holier than thou England! I mean the English were on a losing streak (almost an entire damn empire) for centuries and then finally...
Jethro Tull, a right proper metal band. (Ok, they didn't totally bend over for Hitler either but let's face it their empire is pretty much reduced to a bunch of sheep shit islands in the south Atlantic they are fighting to keep from a bunch of 3rd rate Mexicans).
So maybe since we are talking about a game based on a game that was first produced in jolly ole England, maybe they could use some advice from America on how to correctly do blood/gore/death violent (and how to speak damn English for that matter).
It starts with not having your manhood hanging out there to be cut/shot/bitten off! And it is called a truck, say it T-R-U-C-K, not a lori. It rhymes with fuck and we use gas, not a liter of petrol (or we use diesel if your truck has actual balls hanging from it like they do in my part of this blessed nation).
See there it is... for too long have we let the internet be ruled by nancy boys jumping peter first on hand rails, tethering bottle rockets to their junk, and generally smacking each other in the nuts. We were told that this is perfectly acceptable "art" to have twigs and berries exposed to such atrocities.
Enough! No more madness! And that goes for having drawn peckers wagging around in a war game just waiting to be mutilated. That is not the American way. Keep it secret, keep it safe. Don't draw them; then we do not have to think about losing them. Man parts are to be cherished and kept out of the way. Boob plate it to be lovingly painted with utmost attention on every miniature. We keep safe the things we cherish....
And one more thing for thou condescending Euros, Aussies or what the Hell ever asses.....now we have DONALD J TRUMP as president so we kick foreigners back to their own countries to us as toilets!
Signed,
Americuh! Bitches.
Quote from: Nexus;948058cucks?
A relatively meaningless term. well, it has a meaning (the one that Cave Bear mentioned), but in reality just means 'person I dislike or want to imply should not be respected.'
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948063Maybe - but I doubt that would have been the case if they didn't already have a market from T1-T4. (And since when does bad editing = controversy?)
Controversy might not be the right word. However, a lot of people, who had previously been bad-mouthing the project from taking too long immediately switched over to badmouthing the decision to release the edition at that point. It was definitely the most visible thing to happen to Traveller in recent memory.
Quote from: san dee jota;948039While I'm supposed to say "arousal is subjective" and all that sort of stuff, there comes a point where it's okay to call a paraphilia a paraphilia.
Of course they are. There are also things that are neither paraphilias, nor arousing to someone with my tastes:).
Quote from: Nexus;948040Good thing I didn't say they did...
"What I find erotic is exciting and sexy, what you find erotic is a twisted perversion." is pretty common attitude. There's almost nothing harder to "get" than someone else's kinks and turn ons and almost nothing easier to judge. There's a ton of them I don't understand, some of that gives me the creeps but are, nonetheless, popular. Humans are weirdos.
See my reply above. But my point is that a demon of lust should be attractive to everyone, which implies shape changing, or at least to as many people as possible.
And that, IME, would mean
not having the characteristics of both sexes;).
Now, if you are going for a demon of lewdness, things
might be different, but it was advertised as a demon of lust!
Quote from: AsenRG;948077But my point is that a demon of lust should be attractive to everyone, which implies shape changing, or at least to as many people as possible.
Maybe the 'demon of lust' isn't meant to inspire lust but to embody it... it lusts for everything... it's ready to fuck or be fucked by all comers. Maybe it exudes pheromones that make it irresistible regardless of it's variant hardware.
Quote from: AsenRG;948077See my reply above. But my point is that a demon of lust should be attractive to everyone, which implies shape changing, or at least to as many people as possible.
That assumes that is the only one kind of lust demon, perhaps there sorts for all types of fetishes and perverse tastes. Maybe it has pheromones or magic that inspire lust (Slaneesh deamonttes have some similar, IIRC) or its not meant to inspire lust but to embody it, in all forms, with as many possible...
And you have more of a problem with a hermaphrodite than an octopus wearing the skin of a woman as far as not many people lusting after it? I've seen much more futanari and pre op transexual porn than Leatherface the Octopus porn. :D
I mean there's fertility Godd/esses and other mythological figures depicted as hermaphrodites as objects of sexual desire and fertility.
Or as monsters. Or both, So a demon meant to be an example of humanity's sexual excesses and transgressions being dual gendered doesn't seem unreasonable.
People are weird.
I get that that particular concept for a Lust Demon doesn't arouse you (and others. Truthfully it doesn't do much for me either). Some would be appalled by the new one. Others would disagree and some quite strongly I can understand that but I don't feel that eliminates it as a concept for lust demon. Tristram Evan's lust demon concept works too for the same reasons. Hell, if you want to pick nits then the only concept that would be acceptable would be shapeshifter as there's no single form that's going to appeal to absolutely everyone.
I liked the original because it was alien and "other" yet close enough to human for the intent to be clear even if you find it repulsive. The revised version is okay just seems a little "generic" in comparison. I could see them existing in the same setting though.
Hey gang,
Slight change of plans - Kickstarter Live isn't working at the moment. Instead, we're going to livestream from my Facebook profile at 2PM CST today. You can ask any questions in the comments section, and we'll be sure to upload the AMA to our site following the conversation.
Today, I will speak more about ZWEIHÄNDER's progress, shipping updates and clarifications regarding late pledges and the distribution of the illustrated PDF.
Adam Rose - our lead playtester - will also be joining us to help answer any questions related to clarify rules, character creation and helping solve some of the more unusual exceptions-based rules you may have about ZWEIHÄNDER.
Tune in today (Feb 28th) from 2-3PM CST on Facebook, as we go live to answer your questions.
See you all soon!
https://www.facebook.com/mformoniker
-d.fx
I'm surprised that no one brought up this (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2017/02/13/the-dickballs-advocate) comic in this whole thread - since it just came up a couple weeks back.
Quote from: Cave Bear;9480614chan slang. Short for 'cuckolds'.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;948068A relatively meaningless term. well, it has a meaning (the one that Cave Bear mentioned), but in reality just means 'person I dislike or want to imply should not be respected.'
Ah, thought it might have been a typo given the topic of conversation. :D
As a consumer I am getting sick of it being equated that: Grimdark = Mature. Because that is anything but the truth.
Being a sufferer of manic depression. I can certainly tell you how destructive grim material and imagery can be to one's psyche.
Grimdark by its very nature is not a mature point of view. It is a product of adolescent hopelessness and feelings of alienation.
Think there for a moment. Adolescent. As in: Not grown up. As in: Not matured.
Beating the hope and optimism out of someone is something that absolutely shouldn't be given praise. It's cruel act of terrorism to deliberately force a distorted worldview on someone. It's an act of assault on that person.
I'm going to share a story now that is pertinent to this.
It's been a couple of decades since this happened. I would GM at a local comic book store. We did Champions. It was during what I call my formative years as a gamemaster. The tradition at that store was.: As long as someone paid part of the electricity and heating with donations. They could stay. The store owners basically overruled the GM on that. Not the best environment in which to play. But it was the only one we had.
We had a player. Older guy. Former police officer. He wrote extremely detailed character background stories. Being naive`, and generally trusting in police and former officers. I accepted his material.
To say it was graphic is an understatement. It contained things that generally weren't even shown in the gore filled horror movies of the day. It was like watching a car accident. I wasn't able to stop reading that stuff. I had never seen anything like it before or since. It was horrible.
I stopped GMing for three years because of that guy's material. I became literally afraid of sitting in the "big chair" for fear of encountering something similar. It was something I couldn't un-see.
The timing of this was before White Wolf arose to prominance as a game company. So I wasn't used to horrible imagery. My upbringing had been relatively sheltered in that regard during my childhood. And I would freak out over classic movies like "The Blob". So movies with high gore and horrible imagery I did not view as being a common or normal thing. As in: It did not have any true sense of immediacy on my life.
I've heard the term: "Squick" used to describe exposing someone to terrible shocking imagery to provoke a usually horrified reaction. I obviously don't like that term or the act it describes. It's an act of the purest cruelty to me.
Later in life as I got more into White Wolf's games. And managed to get my hands on their infamous "Eternal Hearts" novel. I read through that book. And it still wasn't as bad to what I had been exposed to by that ex-cop.
But I look back at the innocence I lost as being tragic.
Part of why I got into RPGs in the first place was as an escape from a pretty rough real world existence. It was my outlet. An escape from the horrors of my real life. I was chasing a more optimistic point of view and existence than the one I actually lived. I was running toward hope.
If I could say anything to that ex-cop, these more than two decades later. I would tell him how much of a scumbag I thought he was for psychologically raping me. By exposing me to what he did. And I would also tell him. That I reject all of it. That I have done everything in my life as a writer and a GM to never inflict on others what he did to me.
In the end, I came full circle and found myself. I'm back to the beginning. Writing material that chases optimism and hope. Because I truly believe the world needs more that does.
Wow... You rose to nothing and instead you went deeper into shelter land. This should be nothing more than water on a ducks back and yet you let it effect you deeply.
That is weak. Your weak. You carried a grudge cause the ex cop had a backstory you didn't like. Seriously the only one in the wrong is you.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948123As a consumer I am getting sick of it being equated that: Grimdark = Mature. Because that is anything but the truth.
Being a sufferer of manic depression. I can certainly tell you how destructive grim material and imagery can be to one's psyche.
Grimdark by its very nature is not a mature point of view. It is a product of adolescent hopelessness and feelings of alienation.
Whats mature is being to able to enjoy grimdark for the inherent silliness.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948126Whats mature is being to able to enjoy grimdark for the inherent silliness.
I prefer not to get more jaded toward what I read than I already tend to be. That's an edge I would rather not fall off.
I mentioned that I chase hope with what fiction I produce. That doesn't mean a lack of darkness. No. I write about characters who overcome the dark elements in their lives. Instead of submitting to them.
To me, that's heroic.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948128I prefer not to get more jaded toward what I read than I already tend to be. That's an edge I would rather not fall off.
Being able to seperate fantasy from reality is also a sign of maturity. And sanity.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948131Being able to seperate fantasy from reality is also a sign of maturity. And sanity.
I'll tell you a secret: A good fiction writer needs to have a touch of insanity to truly make their characters feel alive and vibrant. To create that illusion of life so vital to making their characters compelling.
The writer needs the ability to exist within the mind and point of view of the characters they create. So that the dialogue from those characters properly flow in a natural way. It's something one can't do from a third party perspective and make it believable.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948123If I could say anything to that ex-cop, these more than two decades later. I would tell him how much of a scumbag I thought he was for psychologically raping me. By exposing me to what he did. And I would also tell him. That I reject all of it. That I have done everything in my life as a writer and a GM to never inflict on others what he did to me.
I've deleted my original response to Darrin here.
Normally, I'd never do this. If I screw up in a post, I'll let it stand. This is a little different.
What I originally posted was some ranting, epic-level stupidity on my part. After I cooled down, I realized how stupid it was. I may disagree with Darrin, and may do so strongly, but that's no reason for me to vomit the kind of melodramatic garbage on this thread that I did. I could leave the original post here, but I feel it'd just hang here stinking up the place like the mental fart it was. I don't want to add to the pollution.
I am not anti-cop. Anyone who knows me, knows I am one of the most supportive people toward police officers I can be. One of my Vietnam veteran uncles was a Police Detective who had served the department for decades.
I am also the survivor of a murder attempt made against me when I was four years old by my scumbag father. It left me with major medical conditions that plague me to this very day. That prevent me from actual conventional employment. Sticking me with the humiliation of a meager disability income.
So don't think you can preach to me! You don't have that right.
RPG groups are not the appropriate place to spill one's mental and emotional problems. Therapists and Psychiatrists exist for that. Forcing them on people who are woefully unequipped to deal with it isn't doing anybody any favors. If that ex-cop wanted therapy, he certainly had the time, opportunity, and money to get it. I wasn't the proper person to dump his memories of atrocity on!
What did I do to that ex-cop in the end? I removed him from the group for being disruptive. And tried my best to continue on for the sake of the rest of the group. Which I failed in the end to do. I was in so much mental and emotional shock, that I couldn't touch a GM's chair for three years.
Do you even get how entirely messed up that is? Being terrified of doing an activity I loved is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. It made me useless at one of the few things in my life I saw myself as being really good at.
Nobody in this hobby should ever be made to feel like that.
And again, another deleted post. My original reply to Darrin here was a little more sane, but certainly wasn't constructive.
My reasons for deletion are the same as in my post upthread, #212. However, I'll add that I thought this was Pundit's forum at the time. I didn't realize it was the general roleplaying forum. Not the best place for this nonsense on my part. So, I'm policing myself here.
Sometimes you have an off day. All you can do is correct whatever mistakes you can.
I've got this scar on my knee from when I fell down on a sharp rock...
Quote from: Simlasa;948150I've got this scar on my knee from when I fell down on a sharp rock...
You've seen some
things, dude, and some
stuff. :)
Simlasa, you're a scholar and a gentleman (or gentle lady). Thank you.
So one person incapable of handling their own shit triggered someone else who couldn't handle their own shit?
Urg.
If I had any sense, I would have stayed out of this one. If I had any better sense I would have realized this was the general RPG sub-forum, and not Pundit's forum, and I just hijacked this thread with my ranting.
Apologies to all.
I take strong exception to most of what you wrote, Darrian. For reasons I think one might understand. I disagree with both the tone as well as the assumptions you seem to hold on this matter regarding your condemnation of this ex-cop. From my POV, he did nothing wrong and your reaction is unjustified.
However...
As a rule, I don't like getting into this subject matter, but I've been breaking that rule lately, and I really should stop.
Darrian, I apologize if I offended you. I was too strong in my writing. I'll leave you the last word on this, and step away from this thread.
EDIT (some time later): I've edited out my original two posts above. Reasons are explained there, but the short version is that was some high-level idiocy on my part that has no place on this thread. Not doing this because I feel bad about looking like an idiot (I do that all the time, so I'm cool), but I won't tolerate a certain level of toxicity from myself regarding certain subjects. Best if cleaned up and thrown in the trash where my earlier rants belonged.
Quote from: CRKrueger;948155So one person incapable of handling their own shit triggered someone else who couldn't handle their own shit?
That's exactly right. See my post upthread.
EDIT: And thanks to CRK and Simlasa for having more common sense here than I did.
Quote from: Simlasa;948079Maybe the 'demon of lust' isn't meant to inspire lust but to embody it... it lusts for everything... it's ready to fuck or be fucked by all comers. Maybe it exudes pheromones that make it irresistible regardless of it's variant hardware.
Maaaybe, but I'm not persuaded. I mean, are the pheromones enough to overwrite sexual orientation?
I'd say no, it can only make really horny for the next compatible human being you meet. That's why both the incubus and succubus are sexy.
Quote from: Nexus;948099That assumes that is the only one kind of lust demon, perhaps there sorts for all types of fetishes and perverse tastes. Maybe it has pheromones or magic that inspire lust (Slaneesh deamonttes have some similar, IIRC) or its not meant to inspire lust but to embody it, in all forms, with as many possible...
And you have more of a problem with a hermaphrodite than an octopus wearing the skin of a woman as far as not many people lusting after it? I've seen much more futanari and pre op transexual porn than Leatherface the Octopus porn. :D
Except it's actually not as easy to notice:). And a demon who wants to make you horny, possibly gets you alone, and then reveal its mass murderer's surprise:)?
That's totally a demon of lust, alright (though admittedly more of the kind that punishes you for being lustful - so, possibly a Church of Sigmar-approved devil testing the chastity of followers, instead).
QuoteI mean there's fertility Godd/esses and other mythological figures depicted as hermaphrodites as objects of sexual desire and fertility.
Fertility god/deses don't need to make you feel lust. They need to be able to procreate, often with themselves - so it makes sense.
QuoteOr as monsters. Or both, So a demon meant to be an example of humanity's sexual excesses and transgressions being dual gendered doesn't seem unreasonable.
To you, maybe not, but it sure seems so to me.
QuotePeople are weird.
True some are, but I'm talking about the majority.
QuoteI get that that particular concept for a Lust Demon doesn't arouse you (and others. Truthfully it doesn't do much for me either). Some would be appalled by the new one. Others would disagree and some quite strongly I can understand that but I don't feel that eliminates it as a concept for lust demon. Tristram Evan's lust demon concept works too for the same reasons. Hell, if you want to pick nits then the only concept that would be acceptable would be shapeshifter as there's no single form that's going to appeal to absolutely everyone.
Yeah, that's what I said: everything else is inferiour for those goals! See my previous post.
QuoteI liked the original because it was alien and "other" yet close enough to human for the intent to be clear even if you find it repulsive. The revised version is okay just seems a little "generic" in comparison. I could see them existing in the same setting though.
In a way, I like them all - but I'd rather pick the skin-wearing one for an RPG if we can't have a real shape-changer.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948123As a consumer I am getting sick of it being equated that: Grimdark = Mature. Because that is anything but the truth.
Some grimdark isn't mature, and some is.
Some optimistic material is mature, and some is the result of childishness:).
QuoteBeing a sufferer of manic depression. I can certainly tell you how destructive grim material and imagery can be to one's psyche.
Correction: you can tell us how destructive it can be to your psyche.
Other people get exposed to such materials and imagery in order to toughen up psychically (just like engaging in full-contact sparrings makes you better able to withstand pain, as a general rule). "Useful to prevent greater shocks disabling you" isn't destructive, it's a coping mechanism.
QuoteGrimdark by its very nature is not a mature point of view. It is a product of adolescent hopelessness and feelings of alienation.
For you.
QuoteBeating the hope and optimism out of someone is something that absolutely shouldn't be given praise. It's cruel act of terrorism to deliberately force a distorted worldview on someone. It's an act of assault on that person.
First: "assault" and "terrorism"? Let me put it in the gentlest possible terms: comparing being given reading material that you found too rough is not even close to the suffering of people who have been assaulted or became victims of terrorism. Please, stop using those words when talking about an imaginary experience! That's like saying "being mean to people on Internet is assault";).
Second: Who tells you that the view of the cop you mentioned is the distorted one? What he has seen, happens. The distortion only comes if the knowledge about it dominates your waking moments...but not even knowing that those things happen is equally distorted.
By telling people that "grimdark is not-mature, not-whatever"...you're basically telling them that it doesn't happen. A lie many believe willingly.
And then it's you who has imposed your distorted version of reality on people, and in the process, you made them easier targets for human predators. You know, the ones that would cause those people the kind of things the cop described for you.
Yeah, I don't find that a worthy goal.
Everybody around a game table has their own demons and problems. The group I was the GM of at that time was no different. And we set rules at our table that would accommodate that.
If there were subjects that anyone at the table had issues with, it would go on the list of forbidden subjects. Things the GM and the players were expected honor as being too loaded and triggery to ever even allude to.
As GM, I was the firewall that prevented material on that list of subjects from ever making it into the wild of the campaign. I was the gatekeeper. But it also meant, I got everything given by the players unfiltered.
The content given by that ex-cop triggered virtually every one of those forbidden subjects. A list of topics he had been notified as being off-limits from the moment he joined the campaign.
No. I wasn't prepared in the slightest for what he did. There was no way I could have been. No way anyone could have been.
But I have to hand it to the rest of the game group. When I fell down and told them I couldn't go on. They were absolutely understanding. They were thankful to me for bringing them the enjoyment I had. Every single one of them. And they wished me well in whatever I would do in the future.
Weak isn't falling down. Weak would have been: Letting that player roll over me and inflict what he did to me on the rest of the group. No. I wasn't weak by any definition. I took a shot for the team. Which put me out for quite some time. But I didn't quit.
Oh for fuck's sake....
Can we just go back to talking about sensible things like what a minotaur's dick would really look like? Futanari demons and the men/women that love them? Fun shit like that
Quote from: noman;948157Darrian, I apologize if I offended you. I was too strong in my writing. I'll leave you the last word on this, and step away from this thread.
The apology ends the issue for me. Thank you very much for it.
For me, it will be like this incident never happened. That's how I will treat it.
Quote from: AsenRG;948159Maaaybe, but I'm not persuaded. I mean, are the pheromones enough to overwrite sexual orientation?
I'd say no, it can only make really horny for the next compatible human being you meet. That's why both the incubus and succubus are sexy.
Maybe they put out intoxicating fumes as well... exuding supernaturally powerful scents of lotus and mandragora from their 'pink secrets'... labia coated in hallucinatory drugs... penises dripping venom that bring ecstasy and death.
Instant beer-goggles!
Could be magic. Just saying... :D
Quote from: Nexus;948161Oh for fuck's sake....
Can we just go back to talking about sensible things like what a minotaur's dick would really look like? Futanari demons and the men/women that love them? Fun shit like that
I concur:).
Quote from: Simlasa;948164Maybe they put out intoxicating fumes as well... exuding supernaturally powerful scents of lotus and mandragora from their 'pink secrets'... labia coated in hallucinatory drugs... penises dripping venom that bring ecstasy and death.
Instant beer-goggles!
Beer-goggles never worked for me, even the handful of times that I tried to put them on:D!
Quote from: Nexus;948166Could be magic. Just saying... :D
Such powerful magic is for the Exalted, not for demons, and you'd notice even the classical demons didn't have it;)!
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948138I'll tell you a secret: A good fiction writer needs to have a touch of insanity to truly make their characters feel alive and vibrant. To create that illusion of life so vital to making their characters compelling.
Yes, thank you for that hallmark greeting card non sequitur.
The point is, you are trying to define an area of entertainment through the lens of your personal issues. It doesn't make a genre "immature" because you can't separate a fictional theme from your emotional baggage, that implies the onus is on the genre to cater to your personal sensibilities. And frankly, that's not a mature worldview.
Quote from: Nexus;948161Oh for fuck's sake....
Can we just go back to talking about sensible things like what a minotaur's dick would really look like?
Cant see why it wouldn't look like a human dick, but cant wrap my head around who would go to the trouble of circumcising it. But then, the same question goes for the nipple rings. Between this, the daemonettes, and the "nosferatu", I just kinda get the feeling the artist is conflating "dark and edgy" with 90s fetish culture.
Quote from: Nexus;948166Could be magic. Just saying... :D
"Fizzbang's Spell of Foreskin Prunation"?
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948192Yes, thank you for that hallmark greeting card non sequitur.
The point is, you are trying to define an area of entertainment through the lens of your personal issues. It doesn't make a genre "immature" because you can't separate a fictional theme from your emotional baggage, that implies the onus is on the genre to cater to your personal sensibilities. And frankly, that's not a mature worldview.
Remember this is the guy who thought Wildfire is criminally guilty of fraud (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35904-When-a-game-company-treats-its-customers-badly&p=940013&viewfull=1#post940013) for not releasing a supplement before a new edition of Cthulhutech.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDERto better explain our approach to real-world racial and gender inclusiveness in the character artwork.
Which is
what exactly? How did any of this manage to be inclusive?
Quote from: David Johansen;948046I think this thread indicates that people are more offended by the announcement than they are by minotaur penises. It's an odd landmark in the internet age.
That's because at heart it's always been about proper
belief rather than manner. The #Internet just enables people to address that more directly.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;948051That and the weird relationship rpgs have had with concepts of moral guardianship since at least the late 70s/early 80s.
Only now the calls are coming from inside the house.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;948051even a lack of statement is considered a statement,
Though
less of one.
There's a reason politicians invented the phrase "no comment".
Quote from: Willie the Duck;948051There seems to be no good option.
There
isn't, which is why sticking to your guns and demonstrating integrity is often a better bet in the long run.
Quote from: David Johansen;948054My distributor tells me that the badly edited and largely unplayable T5 sold way more copies than it would have if it'd been perfect out of the gate.
This affects technical industries like programming too. For example, the most popular programming languages are the ones which get talked about the most, but the ones which get talked about the most tend to be the most broken or trendy, which is why they get talked about so much.
Have I mentioned how annoying that is? Because it's annoying.
Missed the apparently serious discussion of what a minotaur penis would really look like earlier. Oh, and maybe it is uncut 'cause he's Jewish.
Quote from: CRKrueger;948195Remember this is the guy who thought Wildfire is criminally guilty of fraud (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35904-When-a-game-company-treats-its-customers-badly&p=940013&viewfull=1#post940013) for not releasing a supplement before a new edition of Cthulhutech.
oh, lol, yeah didn't connect the two. Bloody hell. This site needs a wiki.
Quote from: Voros;948199Missed the apparently serious discussion of what a minotaur penis would really look like earlier. Oh, and maybe it is uncut 'cause he's Jewish.
Not a lot of Israelites running around in the ploytheistic Old World, from what I recall, but maybe Zweihander is doing its own thing.
Ha, yeah but apparently according to Wikipedia satyrs did have circumcised penises. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision)
Gotta love that footnote:
Hodges, F. M. (Fall 2001). "The ideal prepuce in ancient Greece and Rome: male genital aesthetics and their relation to lipodermos, circumcision, foreskin restoration, and the kynodesme". The Bulletin of the History of Medicine. 75 (3): 375–405.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948193Cant see why it wouldn't look like a human dick, but cant wrap my head around who would go to the trouble of circumcising it.
For me it depends on the creature. I didn't see write up for the Minotaurs in this setting. If they're a race circumcision and piercings could just be a part of their culture like it is with some human cultures. Maybe like a manhood ritual where young males have to prove their toughness by performing it on themselves, for instance. Body modifications don't have allot of practical function for humans (some do but not all) there's no reason they have to be innately logical for different races. If they're more one off creatures then it is harder to explain other than that's just what this one looks like perhaps due to a personal affectation.
QuoteBut then, the same question goes for the nipple rings. Between this, the daemonettes, and the "nosferatu", I just kinda get the feeling the artist is conflating "dark and edgy" with 90s fetish culture.
I can't make a call on what they were thinking but the imagery doesn't put me off or strike me as too modern but that's a personal taste issue. I like how Carnal Demon looked but I won't claim its objectively better than other concepts for such beings.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948194"Fizzbang's Spell of Foreskin Prunation"?
Ha!
I was referring to why Carnal Demon might attract even people of that find its nature unappealing, sorry. :)
Though, in a setting where its a common practice, I could imagine a utility spell of that nature probably incorporated into something more like magic for simple surgical procedures unless magic is very specific by nature. I guess in D and D terms it would only take a minor healing spell to make the procedure quick healing and infection free
Quote from: Voros;948199Missed the apparently serious discussion of what a minotaur penis would really look like earlier. Oh, and maybe it is uncut 'cause he's Jewish.
Sorry about that. I let some frustration spill over about the ensuing derail about psychological trauma inflicted by squicky character backgrounds.
Quote from: CRKrueger;948195Remember this is the guy who thought Wildfire is criminally guilty of fraud (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35904-When-a-game-company-treats-its-customers-badly&p=940013&viewfull=1#post940013) for not releasing a supplement before a new edition of Cthulhutech.
They advertised and teased said supplement for two years. Building up anticipation amongst their customer base all along the way. Then in a complete dick move, pulled the rug out from under the customers they had been promoting said book to for those
two years.
Two years of deliberately misleading their customers is not a mistake. It's not something to shrug off as if it were nothing. Bad business is bad business. That's what it was. And the customers shouldn't have to just suck it.
The moderators of the purple have habitually acted to suppress, derail, and outright troll threads that contained consumer complaints regarding bad business practices by RPG companies. Which gives the impression, to me, that they believe that said companies should be above being held accountable by their customers. And has led to my impression of that place as being anti-consumer.
That is one of among the many reasons I left the purple in my rear view mirror. And started posting here.
Quote from: Voros;948212Ha, yeah but apparently according to Wikipedia satyrs did have circumcised penises. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision)
Gotta love that footnote:
Hodges, F. M. (Fall 2001). "The ideal prepuce in ancient Greece and Rome: male genital aesthetics and their relation to lipodermos, circumcision, foreskin restoration, and the kynodesme". The Bulletin of the History of Medicine. 75 (3): 375–405.
That's a pretty interesting little article. Thanks or the link.
And I repeat: Humans are weird.
Quote from: CRKrueger;948055I suspect he's doing the "there is no bad publicity" thing where for every hundred people screaming on the internet who isn't buying your product, their noise reaches the few who do.
In other cases, I might think that was crazy talk. In this case, though, as I watch his "how many ads can I post in the main gaming forum before I get permabanned?" campaign over on TBP... Yeah, I think he's just attention-whoring in every way he can think of.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948145RPG groups are not the appropriate place to spill one's mental and emotional problems.
Some might suggest that the same is true of RPG forums.
Quote from: nDervish;948219Some might suggest that the same is true of RPG forums.
Sorry bub. Social issues regarding RPG groups are entirely on topic for any RPG forum.
And I'm not the type to tolerate being shouted down by an unsanctioned group of internet bullies who think they can dictate what and how i post my views, stories, experiences, and opinions.
Leave the moderating to the actual moderators.
Can we please take the "Let me show you were the bad origin touched me" discussion to its own thread? We have the Serious Business of Minotaur and Demeantte dicks to discuss here. Time is critical! :D
Quote from: Nexus;948227Can we please take the "Let me show you were the bad origin touched me" discussion to its own thread? We have the Serious Business of Minotaur and Demeantte dicks to discuss here. Time is critical! :D
It's over. And as far as I am concerned. It is staying over.
As for minotaur and daemonette dicks. Well someone could always create a fantasy hentai game. Which would actually be the most appropriate place for exposed genitalia.
But in standard fantasy? Any semi-intelligent monster has the good sense to protect the most vulnerable parts from attack. That's one of the most basic elements of even the most rudimentary combat training.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948193Cant see why it wouldn't look like a human dick, but cant wrap my head around who would go to the trouble of circumcising it.
I can't see why it
would look like a human dick. The rest of the lower body is bull-based, so it seems more appropriate to me that the dick would follow suit.
But, yeah, circumcising it doesn't really make much sense either way.
And, speaking of uncut dicks, I'm rather disappointed with the formorian being given pants. That seemed to be the one penis in the art that nobody had any issues with, aside from the "absolutely no penes, please, this is a family show" faction.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948193But then, the same question goes for the nipple rings.
How about a nose ring, then?
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948224Sorry bub. Social issues regarding RPG groups are entirely on topic for any RPG forum.
And I'm not the type to tolerate being shouted down by an unsanctioned group of internet bullies who think they can dictate what and how i post my views, stories, experiences, and opinions.
By all means, discuss social issues, share views, tell stories, relate experiences, and debate opinions. Just spare us the "OMG, it was soooooooo horrible and traumatizing that there's no way
anyone could have
possibly been prepared to deal with reading it!" routine. I don't know (and I don't care, so don't take this as a request) what was in that character background, but I can guarantee you that, no matter what it was, there are people out there who read exactly that kind of thing, if not worse, as light entertainment and enjoy every word of it.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948224Leave the moderating to the actual moderators.
You seem to have greatly overestimated the purpleness of this site.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;948193Cant see why it wouldn't look like a human dick, but cant wrap my head around who would go to the trouble of circumcising it. But then, the same question goes for the nipple rings.
The daemonette did it... in the kitchen... with a paring knife. She did some other stuff as well.
The nipple rings are their engagement rings... a promise the minotaur is keeping until after their forces have sacked the capitol and all the captives are writhing on poles, impaled and screaming out a suitable wedding march.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948119I'm surprised that no one brought up this (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2017/02/13/the-dickballs-advocate) comic in this whole thread - since it just came up a couple weeks back.
This is basically what people think we have been doing:
[video=youtube;ikaqYpGZT64]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikaqYpGZT64[/youtube]
For those who want to know more why the inclusion of tits and dicks, here you go:
[video=youtube_share;9kkGc0FB_NA]https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5069[/youtube]
Today during our AMA, I made a statement about why all the naughty bits, and a follow-up to inclusivity:
https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5070 (https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5070)
1:24:32 to 1:27 (3 minutes long)
Quote from: nDervish;948240By all means, discuss social issues, share views, tell stories, relate experiences, and debate opinions. Just spare us the "OMG, it was soooooooo horrible and traumatizing that there's no way anyone could have possibly been prepared to deal with reading it!" routine. I don't know (and I don't care, so don't take this as a request) what was in that character background, but I can guarantee you that, no matter what it was, there are people out there who read exactly that kind of thing, if not worse, as light entertainment and enjoy every word of it.
This is one of shticks I've seen him repeat many time over the years. Start on some rant about an imagined abuse he's suffered then when people either tell him its not abuse, its off topics or take it somewhere it is rant more about how he will not be silenced by the INTERNET BULLIES regardless of how the replies were phrased.
I like to imagine he paints his face and puts on the kilt...
Quote from: Simlasa;948243The daemonette did it... in the kitchen... with a paring knife. She did some other stuff as well.
Well, my knees slammed together. Anyone else?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948246This is basically what people think we have been doing:
[video=youtube;ikaqYpGZT64]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikaqYpGZT64[/youtube]
Totally unfair, it's not like you went back and drew dicks where there were none before.
Oh, wait. That's exactly what you said you did (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36166-Nudity-gender-inclusivity-and-racial-representation-in-RPGs&p=947460&viewfull=1#post947460).
Quote from: Pat;948272Totally unfair, it's not like you went back and drew dicks where there were none before.
Oh, wait. That's exactly what you said you did (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36166-Nudity-gender-inclusivity-and-racial-representation-in-RPGs&p=947460&viewfull=1#post947460).
Dig deeper.
QuoteToday during our AMA, I made a statement about why all the naughty bits, and a follow-up to inclusivity:
https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5070
1:24:32 to 1:27 (3 minutes long)
Random thought: The carnal demon's leather gear could have been crafted from the flayed skin of her most ardent lovers now bound to her (hir?) and eternally aware, feeling what she does and is done to her. The living suits provide some benefits such as protection and minor healing but crave sensation imposing even greater hedonistic hunger on the wearer not a big handicap when to the Carnal Demon but a mortal donning one would need as strong will not to be driven to sensual excess.
Plus removing them is essentially skinning the Carnal Demon so can usually only been done when its killed (or after allot of candy and sweet talk....
Edit: I wasn't able to find much about the history of leather fetishism and the subculture in an admittedly cursory search. It seems to be have put in an appearance in the 1940 as a semi organized subculture but I recall heaing that it stretches further back than that.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948274Dig deeper.
You started a thread. Responses go here.
Quote from: Pat;948277You started a thread. Responses go here.
I already answered it.
And not every question bears a response, particularly when it's already been answered numerous times in this thread and officially in my AMA.
Cheers,
Daniel
This thread seems all over the place and inherently political. Also Kickstarter announcements really ought to go in the News and Adverts section.