Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947327Check out the cover to the BECMI D&D Creature Crucible.... over burdened with gear and dragging the wizard into the dungeon kicking and screaming.

Another favorite of mine! Preach on brother. Hard to find a good copy of that cover on the net.

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Here is the Bloodstone Lands one you mentioned, I always dug it too. It's the cover for The Savage Frontiers by Paul Jaquays, one of gems buried in the FR supplements.

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Here's an Elmore from the 2e PHB I always liked. It has that bit of grit and detail you mention.

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And another, my fav portrait of a cleric.

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Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947322White European and American males aren't the only folks who play tabletop RPGs. Sorry that our approach doesn't appeal to you.

If I was trying to pick a fight, I might ask what white european and american males' got to do with a cut willie with a minotaur drawn around it.
I'm not opposed to frontal nudity artwork. Do it right, and it will work very well. Do it wrong, and you will be rightly mocked. So far, I don't find your anatomically accurate art as right as it could be.

Ok, I've taken in the whole thread and here are my thoughts:

1) I am just way too old & jaded for these kind of marketing ploys. The entire purpose of this "announcement" just reads to me as "look how PC we are, but also, look how edgy we are." Its not a news story, its not an attempt to gage the reaction from a community, its advertising. And I realize Zweihander has done extraordinarily well based on the neverending efforts of the authors to plug the game on forums and social media the last 4 years, but personally I find this particular "controversy-mongering" tactic insulting.

2) I have no problem with nudity, I don't like porn. I don't think I need to define the difference, if its one and appropriate to the material, I wouldn't bat an eye. If its the other, then its pretty much the opposite of "maturity".

3) As I said before, quality (and by that, I dont necessarily mean technical skill) is the only lens through which I view RPG art. If its really important to the game's creators to be "inclusive", this isn't going to make any difference as long as its not a glaringly inappropriate projection of modern culture onto the setting. Of course, glancing over my WHFRP 1st edition material, I'll note this is not a problem with that particular game that needed any fixing. Zweihander wont be doing anything special or new. But I also cant help but ponder why, if they are confident in the quality and presentation, does this require any virtue signalling on their part? Why can't the work speak for itself, and the audience be allowed to draw their own conclusions?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;947335In fairness, the expressed reason was "Enough with the shameless ZWEIHANDER promotion, already!"

Gotta hustle to get the word out.

A friend of mine suggested I do a postmortum on the success of my SEO & marketing to get a relatively unknown RPG known to practically every one who owns a copy of WFRP. But that was a necessity to achieve my goal of putting a fantastic RPG into folks' hands. ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG been a labor of love and I am excited to show the world what all the fuss is about, naughty bits and all.

Quote from: Voros;947338Another favorite of mine! Preach on brother. Hard to find a good copy of that cover on the net.

Thank you for the pics. Nice assist even when I was miss-remembering some title names.

I don't mind tasteful nudity or representations of a variety of different races in RPG art (I don't believe you could possibly represent 'all real world races' though). I would not buy a game from people who thought it appropriate to make a statement like the one in the OP. I cut down on my Paizo purchasing because of their political stance in their game products, and this seems to dial it up a couple notches.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947341Gotta hustle to get the word out.

I think you crossed the line between "SEO hustler" and "annoying shill" back there somewhere. Waaaaay back there.

This thread just confirms it.

FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".

Quote from: Voros;947317In what version of the myth did you reads this? As I recall in Ovid Minos is supposed to sacrifice a bull sent by the Gods and because he doesn't they make his wife fall in love and sleep with the bull and give birth to the Minotaur. So it is bestiality but not rape. And I don't recall any suggestion that the Minotaur rapes his victims, he eats them. Certainly there are subtextual suggestions of rape in the material but nothing overt. And as you say it's not like Ovid or the Greeks were shy about including rape in their stories.

Sadly I don't know which version of most greek myths I know, because these days most of the time you're getting smaller isolated stories out of translated sources.  The version I know is that the bull is sent to Crete by the gods, and since it is holy they cannot kill or harm it, and it escapes and pretty much goes on a big ol' rape spree, starting with the queen.  Being semi-divine and royal, they can't exactly kill the minotuar either, but since it's a rape-bastard and a monster (and I believe its hinted at that it's lust for the ladies is just like papa's, though maybe not so explicitely told), they build the labrynth to hide that sucker in without offending the Gods.

That could be I got it from some version of the Founder Myth of Theseus, but a quick glance at Wiki for the Minotaur pretty much tells me I'm smoking crack and you've got the more classic tale down. I probably got some version written by some guy called 'Not-Greek' stuck in my head like the real thing.  I withdraw my comment, etc...

frankly Zwei, I don't care if there are naked beings in the book, you already have my money.  I typically prefer there not to be nudity, as I typically do my deepest reading of RPG books on the toilet, and that can lead to... plumbing issues.
HOWEVER, that being said, I would think context and tastefulness need to be your watchwords.  the lust demon and minotaurs mentioned earlier, fine. but if I need to say to myself, "that isn't how you ride a horse..."

also, where transgenderism is involved, I feel it would have to make sense.  What I mean by that is if the setting's medical technology is one where leeches and bloodletting are the standard, and treatment for a badly broken leg is amputation, gender reassignment surgery isn't going to be a thing.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;947340Zweihander wont be doing anything special or new. But I also cant help but ponder why, if they are confident in the quality and presentation, does this require any virtue signalling on their part? Why can't the work speak for itself, and the audience be allowed to draw their own conclusions?

Because it's a fan-brew reprint of a game that you can get for cheap, with better production values, on eBay, and it needs every drop of faked up attention it can get?

I mean, I'll give the OP credit for passing himself off as legit in order to hawk his wares.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;947358FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".

Hermaphroditic hedonistic monstrosity = transgender.  Duh!

Seriously though, I was wondering the same and thought "surely the OP is talking about -other- art in the book or something".

Quote from: remial;947364also, where transgenderism is involved, I feel it would have to make sense.  What I mean by that is if the setting's medical technology is one where leeches and bloodletting are the standard, and treatment for a badly broken leg is amputation, gender reassignment surgery isn't going to be a thing.

Surgery isn't essential to be trans.  Of course, there's the issue of how do you tastefully depict such in art (it's easier in fiction).  And -then- there's the issue of if transgenders aren't over represented in RPGs at this point.

In certain settings, like Japan for instance, there is a lot of historical precedence for trans characters.

transgender can just mean cross-dressing, not necessarily a surgical procedure?

Yeah. Before modern science people didn't have much choice. Even today most people don't do a full transition.

I'm finding the implication that transgender = some kind of fetishized freak in this thread to be really offensive.

Transgender people come in all shapes and sizes. And they go through life being treated like freaks way too much already.

Feeling like one has been born in the wrong body is not a personal choice. It is a state of fundamental existential crisis for that person. One that way too often results in suicide.

But getting down to the artwork in this game? It's being as exploitive as any freak show is. That's my problem with it. It's a freak show. And that's why I find it offensive.

Freak shows are not about inclusiveness or appealing to diversity. They are entirely about exploitation.