Quote from: Tristram Evans;947275I find it to be meaningless pandering to a juvenile outlook. If the art is good, if it evokes the setting and inspires gaming, then the subject matter is irrelevant. For anyone that is not the case, they arent interested in roleplaying anyways, just making a social statement.

Hmm, I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to.  I know you're an artist and a warhammer fan, so I'm fairly certain you're not saying a Slaaneshi demon with tits is "meaningless pandering to a juvenile outlook", but I don't know what you think is doing the pandering.  The statement?  Are you just saying if it's good art that fits with the setting it doesn't matter whether everyone is fully armored or skyclad?

I don't why there's no such thing as an accurate depiction allowed, it has to be pandering to 13 year old hormones, or being some SJW lunatic.
If I ask you to draw me a group of daemonettes is every single one going to have a bra?

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947242What are your thoughts on nudity and inclusivity in RPGs?

Have we really reached the point where showing a bare cock or three in your art defines a roleplaying game as 'inclusive?'

And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.

Hmm.  My first-gloss reaction is that I prefer "non-explicitness" in my games in terms of both sex and violence.  In combats I don't go into exquisite detail about how horrible and violent it is, nor do I go into detail about how my minotaurs are hung like bulls. And for that matter married characters tend to say things like "we've been separated for a month, so we spend the next three days in our cabin" and leave it at that.  And I don't go into people having to shit, either.

If other people want to, no problem for me, it's a null as far as I'm concerned.  It neither really adds or subtracts, it's just unnecessary.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947269Glad to hear everyone's opinions on it. We've always aimed for contextual appropriateness in the artwork. For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.

For clarification, however, the only nudity we have up to this point is restricted to the bestiary.

While I can concede to the 'inappropriateness' of sexualized nudity in the book for those who wish to expose their little ones to ZWEIHÄNDER, I personally believe that it's no different than having a discussion with them about emulated violence in a game that's intended to be violent. Frankly, ZWEIHÄNDER - and Warhammer in general - is and has always been for mature audiences.

Spoken like someone that does not have kids... if you truly believe that a discussion about "emulated violence" and why your lust demon has a pee pee and boobies is the "same", you do not have kids.

Why not just step up and just say our game is not for children and be done with it? I guess that would be making a real courageous statement about your game rather than your faux social justice preening ("Hey look! We have Trannies Too!").

Even if you put a parental warning sticker on the book, I'm sure it will find its way into the hands of enough pubescent lads not to hurt your sales, maybe more.

But if you want to compare the art work in your book to the level of violence found in an episode of the Powerpuff Girls or Jake and the Neverland Pirates (which I can with "No Thank You, Evil!), Just GTFO! Seriously, that is just moronic and retarded. I'm so sick of this pseudo European superiority argument of "our nudity is not as bad as your violence"  like we are force feeding 5 year olds to watch Quentin Teratino movies.

Honestly, I might actually be interested in buying your game but please don't make intelligence insulting statements like that. Just present your work and I will know for myself if it needs to go on the top shelf or not at my house.

Quote from: san dee jota;947253"why sure the post-apocalyptic bandit lady has a perfect body with naturally perky C-cup breasts, despite a life of never wearing a bra"

There was an article posted on FB about one of the great 40s/50s pinup girl artists.... Vargas, perhaps, but I can't swear to it.  Though his paintings were nudes, his models were wearing underwear -- and he painted them exactly as he saw them.  Thus, you ended up with women with C and D cup breasts who were painted nude, but the breasts were painted as "naturally perky" because the model was wearing a bra.

I don't know if that's where it started, but I thought it was interesting.  Having seen C and D cup breasts in the wild, they don't look like that when they're roaming free.

Quote from: Spike;947270Well, since you asked, I might point out that the actual mythological minotaur was pretty much a rape monster, and the product of an interspecies rape at that.  Believe it or not, historical cultures weren't always quite so squeamish about uncomfortable (sick, or for that matter juvenile) commentary.   Actually... now that I think about it, NOT putting penii (penisuses?) on minotaurs is historical white-washing, and should be offensive to someone as a form of cultural appropriation...

No that wasn't at all what I asked. I asked what that bit of information was supposed to bring to a group of people playing a game?

But I can promise you if it brings a half ass lecture about "cultural appropriation"  in a game that is all about culturally appropriating tropes, characters, races, etc.  to build a game world; then not only are my players out, so am I.

In my opinion these are several basically unrelated subjects.

Racial inclusivity depends a lot on your world. Is it based on a historical time period and region in real life? Then I think it's dishonest to portray diversity that wasn't in that region at that time. Not only dishonest in the sense that your misconstruing the time, but also in the sense that you're potentially misleading your customers, as your setting implies a setting that may differ from what you're getting if you focus on inclusivity for its own sake. When we're talking about higher fantasy, where all regions and cultures are original, I don't see much place for real life races at all. I think that if your nations and cultures are original, or only loosely based in real life, so too should be your ethnic groups. I do like the idea of considering geographic gradients as a starting point for ethnicities. In real life, more sun correlates strongly to more melanin for practical biological reasons. In Exalted, the people from the east, the cardinal direction of the element of wood, have pointier ears. Of course, you can and should also throw in stuff with no clear explanation, like the purple eyes of Valyria, or the blonde hair of certain melanesians. You should absolutely not default your races to a European/American melange, because that's both marginalizing and boring, but I don't think there's any obligation to have direct representations of various real life races.

Gender inclusivity is, to me, a similar but different topic - perceptions of gender are cultural. Some cultures do not recognize transgendered or intersex individuals, and some consider them only in very specific contexts. For those that do recognize them, it's similar to looking at gender roles in your fictional cultures: The two primary criteria are what that role stipulates for individuals of the gender, and how strong those roles are. Of course, this is purely worldbuilding. When it comes to art, I would avoid focusing on these individuals overly much simply because it's easy to put on a pedestal, and non-binary folks are statistically pretty minor. That doesn't mean that you should avoid non-binary people entirely, of course, but don't make that the defining feature of an individual or culture.

Nudity is separate entirely from the above concerns in my opinion. Rather than nudity, I would look at it from a cultural context: What are the standards of modesty? I don't think that every culture should cleave to our real-world sensibilities. But as with the other concerns mentioned here, it's very easy to do this "wrong". Nudity that fetishizes the human body (except where that makes sense, like the lust demon) is not really an appropriate standard, and focusing on sexual parts of the body runs the risk of being pornographic. Porn isn't something I'm going to denounce in general here, but when you're making a game that's probably not your goal. So you need to make sure that the genitals look normal, a simple part of the body and not overly emphasized. This is something that I think y'all Zweihänder folks have actually dropped the ball on. Those penises don't look fully flacid and they aren't drawn with the same level of rough sketchiness that the rest of the designs are. Especially look at the smooth blending on that satyr glans (why is he even circumsized?) compared to the hair everywhere else. It makes the dick stand out like the art is saying "Look! A penis! Aren't we transgressive!". I don't think that's really appropriate for a dude just standing there with his axe. Why not make it a normal flaccid penis, the sort that (given his dense hair) should probably only barely peek out, with hair-clad scrotum framing it from behind and drooping almost as low as the shriveled foreskin typical of an unaroused individual. Alternately, go for the "mighty fucking bullcock" Black Vulmea mentioned, and make it explicitly a rape monster like the minotaur of lore, but the current half-measure is weird, it feels at best like an artistically unskilled addition, and at worst like the childish perversity that some other posters have perceived it as.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information?

It's not the penis itself that's relevant - though the current art emphasizes it - but the nudity. Nudity implies (but doesn't denote) barbarism, a culture with less focus on modesty or propriety. It thereby signifies an enemy that you are unlikely to reason with, or an ally/neutral party who is unlikely to be swayed by or desire to interact with society. The penis itself is there because, well, that's something you see when a humanoid male is naked. The semi-erect penis depicted by the art does lean towards your three unsavory possibilities, but that's not an inherent feature of penises.

Although as for the first one, a rapist isn't necessarily "eek how scary he might rape me!" but rather, a moral abomination which is fundamentally disgusting and must therefore be killed.

Well, on the miniatures end of the thing I'd rather naked Celts had their junk intact than not.  One of my friends meticulously clipped the dangling bits from a couple dozen old Ral Partha Collector's Series Orcs.  Then there's Hasslefree that revels in naughty figures.  I expect they sell well but then it drifts over to Other World's stuff and their minotaur and manticore and many other figures are dangling loose in the breeze.  I don't quite know what to make of their straight out of Where The Wild Things Are bugbears with their boys hanging low.

From an artistic perspective, it's weirder when they're missing.  Take the Mutant Chronicles Razide, kind of a molten metal heavy weapons carrying critter with bird feet.  The absence of things makes them particularly alien and weird looking, but they put a loin cloth on the new ones and one can't but wonder why bother?

Heck, you know what, even thinking about it this much is weird.

Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines. The minotaur is drawn in fuzzy charcoal grays, except for the lines delineating his penis, which are stark black and sharp (the tip of the snout and horns are similar, but blend in more gradually). Same with the carnal demon, and in addition the demon is dressed in bizarre very modern-seeming fetish gear, has silicone tits, and that back leg is horrible. The nephlim is okay and the apparition is fine (though given the haggy face those are mighty perky boobs), but dicks on everything else makes it weird that the bog thing and especially the jabberwork are so obviously sexless (the poses make it hard to miss).

Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947282There was an article posted on FB about one of the great 40s/50s pinup girl artists.... Vargas, perhaps, but I can't swear to it.  Though his paintings were nudes, his models were wearing underwear -- and he painted them exactly as he saw them.  Thus, you ended up with women with C and D cup breasts who were painted nude, but the breasts were painted as "naturally perky" because the model was wearing a bra.

Interesting factoid (seriously!)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947282I don't know if that's where it started, but I thought it was interesting.  Having seen C and D cup breasts in the wild, they don't look like that when they're roaming free.

That was kind of my point.  I mean Degenesis is a -gorgeous- -gorgeous- set of books, setting my current standard for "best art in an RPG".  But unrealistic cheesecake is unrealistic cheesecake.

Quote from: CRKrueger;947277Hmm, I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to.

only the initial post, still digesting the rest of the thread.

Quote from: Pat;947286Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines.

Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.

Yup - definitely looked like someone said "hey, draw a dick on that daemonette!"

Quote from: Black Vulmea;947278Have we really reached the point where showing a bare cock or three in your art defines a roleplaying game as 'inclusive?'

And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.

LOL indeed.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267As a political statement I find "look how inclusive we are, too" to be pretty boring in any media format but especially in fantasy RPG art.

Seriously.

Quote from: Simlasa;947264I'm tired of everyone tripping over themselves to be 'family friendly', PG-13, and PC... so any R or X-Rated content that isn't there merely to titillate but makes sense in the setting gets a thumbs up from me.

I don't see "everyone" doing so. However, plenty of films strive for a PG-13 vs R rating because you cut your audience down significantly otherwise. And we are talking games here, so "family friendly" is generally a good thing.

You can talk about minotaur rape fantasies at your table, but for those not into it, there's nothing to be gained from minotaur dick pics.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;947260What does the nudity add to the presentation of the game? Does it have a purpose other than just existing for shock value?

If you don't have a compelling reason for it, Then you really don't need it.

Bingo.

Then again, I think you can suggest themes without having to be on-the-nose.

Or the cock.

Quote from: CRKrueger;947265Isn't "Accurate depiction of the subject matter" always a good enough reason?
Why must it be "compelling?"

Shock value is a juvenile reason for nudity. It's deliberately attention grabbing in the cheapest way possible.

I don't object to nudity in games in general. But the motivations for having said nudity in the first place are important.

After all. We are talking about a communicative medium. And what is communicated definitely an an important componant.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947269For fans of Warhammer, the context is readily apparent. For others that are unfamiliar with the work, you have to read into the creature's descriptions to get a good feel for why a handful of creatures have their naughty bits exposed.

Doubtful.  Something rapey, something lusty, something about not being limited by the social mores of others.  Does that cover it all?  

I mean, I respect you're trying to run with a home-brew unlicensed version of Slannesh (it wouldn't be a Warhammer clone without that!), but using the phrases "naughty bits" and "mature audiences" in the same post is probably not a good way to convince me this isn't an exercise in light-hearted juvenalia.  Which is fine (really, I'm all for rolling dice and smacking orcs and telling crude jokes), but it shouldn't be confused with being more than it is.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;947278And your Minotaur looks like he's swinging a circumcised human dick, not a mighty fucking bullcock.

Actually, having grown up in farm country I found that bulls and stallions are "growers," not "showers." When non aroused the penis is almost completely hidden up in the sheath.