Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 05:07:36 PM4) In 5th edition (2014), they did away with NPCs being generated by PC rules.

This is actually a really common claim about 5e that is not true.
Now, you may not be interested in the details, because your overarching point is about monster manual entries (or similar).

DMG92 tells us "When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels."

This explicitly states that class-and-level is a way to design NPCs in 5e.  The upper right of that page then goes into details about this, even pointing out that there's two additional class options for evil player characters and NPCs (note that this means that Death cleric and Oathbreaker paladin actually have alignment restrictions for player characters unless the DM houserules otherwise) contained in the DMG.

NPCs do not exclusively use statblocks in 5.0 D&D, and there's legitimate creative effort spent towards showing how a DM can make detailed characters using character classes.

Wow so I'm the only GM left who makes complete character sheets for my (primary) NPCs? Full background. Description. Personality traits. Combat tactics.

Stat blocks IME were furiously incomplete.

I knew I was OCD but I guess "crazy" will have to do, going forward.

I don't know if this is relevant for this thread and I don't even play 2024, but one huge problem seems to be magic spells.

Instead of having spells some NPCs - including mage types - apparently have "powers" with similar functions, that cannot be counter-spelled.

Why I see that in complex systems such as modern DND it is useful to have different rules for NPCs, this is ridiculous IMO.

Yeah, having human(oid) spellcaster NPCs immune to Counterspells seems... jacked up, TBH.  Not sure the rationale or justification there.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 10, 2025, 05:31:30 PMI don't know if this is relevant for this thread and I don't even play 2024, but one huge problem seems to be magic spells.

Instead of having spells some NPCs - including mage types - apparently have "powers" with similar functions, that cannot be counter-spelled.

Why I see that in complex systems such as modern DND it is useful to have different rules for NPCs, this is ridiculous IMO.

Quote from: Brigman on February 10, 2025, 07:30:21 PMYeah, having human(oid) spellcaster NPCs immune to Counterspells seems... jacked up, TBH.  Not sure the rationale or justification there.

I know there is a whole discourse within the 5e scene about counterspell being a problem, though since I don't play 5e, I couldn't say why.

I don't mind non-human NPCs having "powers" instead of spells, if it's a way to represent their magical abilities deriving from a different source than the way PCs learn magic. It makes sense that something like a Dragon's fear aura acts like a spell but really isn't. But if the powers are just representing a different kind of spell, then they should probably be subject to a lot of the same rules.

It sounds like a continuation of the "spell-like abilities" concept in 3.x. I can't recall how counterspelling worked in that game, but I think "spell-like abilities" could at least be interrupted.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 05:07:36 PM4) In 5th edition (2014), they did away with NPCs being generated by PC rules. Instead, NPCs should just be written up as stat blocks without having to conform to the rules for PCs. The 5E MM had no entries under "dwarf" or "elf" or "human", but instead had a separate section for NPC stat blocks. NPC stat blocks are generic to race, there is just "scout" that is described as "Medium Humanoid (Any Race), Any Alignment". The DM is instructed to modify it for an elven scout versus a halfling scout vs a human scout.

5e, like BX and AD&D had it both ways wctually. You had these generic blocks. But in modules alot of NPCs were straight up classed just like a PC. Gygax in particular did this alot. But I have seen it in alot of different modules.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 05:07:36 PM4) In 5th edition (2014), they did away with NPCs being generated by PC rules. Instead, NPCs should just be written up as stat blocks without having to conform to the rules for PCs. The 5E MM had no entries under "dwarf" or "elf" or "human", but instead had a separate section for NPC stat blocks. NPC stat blocks are generic to race, there is just "scout" that is described as "Medium Humanoid (Any Race), Any Alignment". The DM is instructed to modify it for an elven scout versus a halfling scout vs a human scout.

Quote from: Venka on February 10, 2025, 12:48:06 PMDMG92 tells us "When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels."

This explicitly states that class-and-level is a way to design NPCs in 5e.

Quote from: Omega on Today at 01:46:25 AM5e, like BX and AD&D had it both ways wctually. You had these generic blocks. But in modules alot of NPCs were straight up classed just like a PC. Gygax in particular did this alot. But I have seen it in alot of different modules.

OK, good points - Venka and Omega. From what I've seen, citing a MM stat block is the norm for NPCs in official modules, but I'm not surprised that some NPCs are explicitly written up as PCs.

Still, writing NPCs up as 5E PCs not only takes a long time, but the end result is a character with a lot of fiddly options that are a pain to manage in play for a GM. That's why the NPC stat blocks don't have a lot of the fiddly PC options like a half-dozen class abilities that can be used N times per long rest.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 09, 2025, 02:54:10 PMThere's two different concerns to address. Entries in the MM are there to address the need of a DM to be able to grab a block on the fly and plug it into their game. Kit-bashing guidelines don't address that. They address the need of DMs to build NPCs to a unique power/skill level.

Optimally you have both. You have a comprehensive list of monster/npc entries, with power-tiers where appropriate for NPC types that should have a lot of variance with in them. And then you would also have a comprehensive "build a stat block" section, preferably a modular system with good guidelines on how to build NPCs to certain power levels relative to PC levels. Time, energy and pagecount are limited, though, so you have to balance thoroughness with efficiency.

Quote from: estar on February 10, 2025, 10:32:28 AMThe solution is to have a Domesday Book like a Monster Manual. Not a AD&D style Rogues Gallery consisting of lists of stats block but a variety of entries as well thought out and coherent as a good monster manual.

For my Majestic Fantasy RPG, I will be fixing this, and I already did some of this for my basic rules.

For example, I have this for Swords & Wizardry covering Bandits and Brigands.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Bandits%20&%20Brigands%20Ver%2001.pdf

And another write up I did for D&D 5e to cover various types of medieval troops I use in my Majestic Fantasy Realms.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/NPCs%20for%20a%20Medieval%20Setting%20Rev%201.pdf

I agree that having a more extensive variety of NPC stat blocks is extremely useful. But if there are kitbashing "build a stat block" guidelines, then it's easy to use those to make prewritten stat blocks for the most common types of NPCs to be encountered. If you start with the guidelines, then it's easy to come up with more stat blocks.

Quote from: jhkim on Today at 12:45:23 PMI agree that having a more extensive variety of NPC stat blocks is extremely useful. But if there are kitbashing "build a stat block" guidelines, then it's easy to use those to make prewritten stat blocks for the most common types of NPCs to be encountered. If you start with the guidelines, then it's easy to come up with more stat blocks.

There are guidelines they are called character generation rules.

If character generation rules can't be used quickly to make NPCs then I submit there is an issue with the presentation of those rules.

For example, equipment. If you go with the default of presenting just a price list then it will be pain if you try to scale up character generation. Any step involving "picking from a list" doesn't scale.

The solution for equipment I found is taking what 5e did and what GURPS did a step further namely equipment packs and load outs. A straight-forward list of useful equipment combinations and gear combination.

Another specific to D&D is memorized spells. Again, this is another list problem. Like load outs and equipment packs, out of all the ways to memorize there are a few useful combinations that are useful and/or interesting.

For classic D&D I made a set of random tables along with a generator that allows me to generate spellbooks and memorized spells. Where I put some effort in is figuring out the odds which spells are likely to be memorized and gave those spells higher odds. As opposed to just giving each of 12 1st levels the same odds of being memorized.

https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Random%20Memorized%20Spells.pdf

And at the end the book I created assortment tables which are tables consisting of pre-generated combinations of memorized spells.

Also a well designed Domesday Book would have more than just a variety it would show how groups of NPCs with different character classes would inter-relate. Along how progression would work out. What would an apprentice mage look like, journeyman, master, and grandmaster.

For D&D I don't need to provide examples of the intermediate levels. If I wanted a 4th level medium foot solider for 5e, it more straightforward for me to start with the 2nd Level Medium foot Sergeant and tack on two levels compared to generating 4th level from scratch.

What it takes is a well-thought out selection as a starting point.

If you create a whole set of NPC guidelines the result will be yet another set of design tools with lists to wade through.