Yeah the edit without notification of change while palming this new edition off as the original is a bit dirty in context. Had it been done at any other time I doubt we'd be having so heated a discussion.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1143335The censorship being imposed is much more subtle, but eventually equally draconian.

The state I am living in has had parliament suspended. The state Premier has the power to, with just two other members of Cabinet, make regulations overriding any legislation and large parts of the state constitution. Members of Parliament electoral offices have been closed - if they're members of the Opposition, but not the government. Most businesses have been closed down, and we not permitted to go more than 5km from home, and even that for only one hour a day. There is an 8pm-5am curfew. People have been arrested and fined for going for a drive, or going fishing on their own. Police can stop and search people without cause, and enter their homes and search them without warrants. People organising protests against all this have been arrested for "incitement."

I'm not worried about someone changing a pdf file they themselves wrote. There are many real-world examples of oppression far, far more significant than this. This is a scandal on par with "but Han shot first!"

Flying Buffalo has now gone back in the PDFs of the older editions of T&T and added a note on the dedication page 2?, from Ken St. Andre stating the spell name has been changed and why. I don't have a problem with this now that there is a note stating it is not as it was originally published.

That's good news. With the note the situation is downgraded from a 1984 memory hole to just a regular book burning. Assuming the unaltered version is unavailable for those who want it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1143615There are many real-world examples of oppression far, far more significant than this. This is a scandal on par with "but Han shot first!"

You had me up until that final quote.

Because THAT was an important fucking issue!

Quote from: Mr_X;1143967That's good news. With the note the situation is downgraded from a 1984 memory hole to just a regular book burning. Assuming the unaltered version is unavailable for those who want it.

This is total nonsense. No books are burned. PDFs are not fucking physical books. If the PDFs stopped being sold tomorrow that would also not be the same as burning books. This sort of hyperbole persuades zero people of anything.

Quote from: sharps54;1143788Flying Buffalo has now gone back in the PDFs of the older editions of T&T and added a note on the dedication page 2?, from Ken St. Andre stating the spell name has been changed and why. I don't have a problem with this now that there is a note stating it is not as it was originally published.

I like the replies to my question about the spell name change. Who the fuck is Jerry N? Is that one of the retard progressives who posts on this board? Surely it's not Jerry Nadler...

Quote from: Mistwell;1144015This is total nonsense. No books are burned. PDFs are not fucking physical books. If the PDFs stopped being sold tomorrow that would also not be the same as burning books. This sort of hyperbole persuades zero people of anything.

It is denying people going forward access to (using the term loosely here) knowledge by destroying the source, therefore keeping people in the future from having access to these 'dangerous ideas'.  It's censorship.  It's trying to hide/destroy/obfuscate points of view the self-elected moral police have deemed bad.

If you want to be honest, you could say "Fuck the people coming up, I got mine."

You're hung up on the Hyperbole, and either a born contrarian or the self-elected devils advocate for the board, because you get off on the martyr complex of everyone calling you out on your bullshit.  I'm new here, and it took me about a half a day to get your number.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1143335The censorship being imposed is much more subtle, but eventually equally draconian.

WotC has declared your books contain various dangerous -ists that offend the SJW ideology.
Everyone knows -ists are EVIL.
Thus, what is a person who owns EVIL books? Or worse, plays the EVIL games?

The slippery slope has been greased. Thus, how long until the disclaimer is not enough?

As you see from the Tunnels & Trolls self-censorship, the author (a retired librarian) panicked and changed his own work to hide his past "sins" from the torch wielding goodthinkers.
And watch how the self-censorship affects what new games and settings are created. How many game designers will NOT use the woke checklist before turning in their drafts?

My guess? Very few.

Ehh? It's been this way since very nearly from the beginning. D&D is bad because there are no limits on what evil can do. D&D is not to be trusted simply because it is new, there's a catch to the game, and if you get caught playing wrong, you'll regret it. D&D is about teaching kids how to be evil. etc. et al. It's a sin to play D&D.

I have heard these allegations repeatedly since D&D and RPGs began, and it's like any other well made tool, It can be used exactly as the user desires to either improve law, ethics, and morales, or destroy it. The people making these allegations most often, don't actually play the game. The new twist is that they do, ...well, ...not exactly. They want to play an RPG game, just not the one that promotes freedom. They want to play some variant where they control the narrative instead of the players. They want to control the narrative to the detriment of the players because then they have control of the players, it's that simple. They (sjw, and their ilk) are like cultists, where you are obligated by the group to worship the idea, or ideal or rule or method or way. It's not about whether the method, way, rule,  or idea is good, it's about whether you are a good sheep and are following the Shepard.

No thank you. Got enough of that going around in real life. certainly don't need it in my fantasy RPGs.

Not sure what to make of the self-censorship of Ken St. Andre. Didn't know he was still making new Tunnels and Trolls.

The best defense is to keep playing your favorite game with the rules and supplements that were originally used, without making any changes.

Does this make me a 0D&D purist?

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144064It is denying people going forward access to (using the term loosely here) knowledge by destroying the source, therefore keeping people in the future from having access to these 'dangerous ideas'.  It's censorship.  It's trying to hide/destroy/obfuscate points of view the self-elected moral police have deemed bad.

If you want to be honest, you could say "Fuck the people coming up, I got mine."

You're hung up on the Hyperbole, and either a born contrarian or the self-elected devils advocate for the board, because you get off on the martyr complex of everyone calling you out on your bullshit.  I'm new here, and it took me about a half a day to get your number.

But in this case, T&T, it isn't. The explanation Ken added has the old spell name in it so there is nothing 'lost to history' in this case.

Quote from: sharps54;1144096But in this case, T&T, it isn't. The explanation Ken added has the old spell name in it so there is nothing 'lost to history' in this case.

He's been beating this drum about the topic in general.  IF you feel you 'have to' take a knee, then he's done the honest thing by not doing a Stalinist style revision.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144064It is denying people going forward access to (using the term loosely here) knowledge by destroying the source, therefore keeping people in the future from having access to these 'dangerous ideas'.

Except for thousands of books out there which already exist. Which, up until 20 years ago, was all the world ever had for any books of any kind. PDFs are not books that can be burned. They're bits. So not the same thing. And they even have a note in them telling you what used to be there - so even the bits don't deny the knowledge.

QuoteYou're hung up on the Hyperbole

Yes, I am. You should be too. It hurts society, it hurts discussion, it makes you unpersuasive and uninformative, and it's just an assholish attention whoring thing to do. That you think hyperbole is something to shrug over tells me you're not getting it. Changing the name of one thing in a PDF which didn't even exist a few years ago, with no harm to the existing thousands of actual books, is not the same as book burning.

It does however damage history. It does make it more difficult to impress on people what actual book burning is about and the real damage it did.

It's just a really fucked up kind of hyperbole to diminish actual book burning with your twaddle exaggeration so that what, people will pay attention to you. You feeling lonely and unappreciated? Feel better with people noticing your bullshit?

If anything book burning is an understatement. The unaltered version has been made completely unavailable, burning a few physical copies is small potatoes by comparison.

Quote from: Mistwell;1144244It does however damage history. It does make it more difficult to impress on people what actual book burning is about and the real damage it did.

It's just a really fucked up kind of hyperbole to diminish actual book burning with your twaddle exaggeration so that what, people will pay attention to you. You feeling lonely and unappreciated? Feel better with people noticing your bullshit?

Outside of antiquity, where there were so few copies of a book that accidental burning, or burning as collateral damage in a general conquest, could cause a work to be lost forever to everyone - has any book burning in our era ever done more than remove a few copies while leaving the work largely available?  I.e., symbolic?  What was the real damage from actual book burning?

Note - I don't support book burning.  I'm trying to figure out what the real damage that book burning did that was so different and also not symbolic.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144064It is denying people going forward access to (using the term loosely here) knowledge by destroying the source, therefore keeping people in the future from having access to these 'dangerous ideas'.  It's censorship.  It's trying to hide/destroy/obfuscate points of view the self-elected moral police have deemed bad.

If you want to be honest, you could say "Fuck the people coming up, I got mine."

You're hung up on the Hyperbole, and either a born contrarian or the self-elected devils advocate for the board, because you get off on the martyr complex of everyone calling you out on your bullshit.  I'm new here, and it took me about a half a day to get your number.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144106He's been beating this drum about the topic in general.  IF you feel you 'have to' take a knee, then he's done the honest thing by not doing a Stalinist style revision.

Quote from: Mistwell;1144244Except for thousands of books out there which already exist. Which, up until 20 years ago, was all the world ever had for any books of any kind. PDFs are not books that can be burned. They're bits. So not the same thing. And they even have a note in them telling you what used to be there - so even the bits don't deny the knowledge.



Yes, I am. You should be too. It hurts society, it hurts discussion, it makes you unpersuasive and uninformative, and it's just an assholish attention whoring thing to do. That you think hyperbole is something to shrug over tells me you're not getting it. Changing the name of one thing in a PDF which didn't even exist a few years ago, with no harm to the existing thousands of actual books, is not the same as book burning.

It does however damage history. It does make it more difficult to impress on people what actual book burning is about and the real damage it did.

It's just a really fucked up kind of hyperbole to diminish actual book burning with your twaddle exaggeration so that what, people will pay attention to you.

QuoteYou feeling lonely and unappreciated? Feel better with people noticing your bullshit?

It seems to work for you.

I dunno if you think I'm the topic starter, if I've given you the impression that I agree 1=1 this is book burning, whatever.

If you'd take the time to read entire posts and not skim for the latest hot-button you can play contrarian over, you'd see that I commented on the specific T&T bit.  I quoted it above.

My issue, is like the worst of the SJWs you're hung up on the language to the point that you aren't even acknowledging the ACTUAL POINT the obvious exaggeration was trying to point out. As far as I can tell, your pro-censorship, since you've been nothing but pedantic about the phrasing on the thread.

I have this mental image of you going from click-baity website to click-baity website bitching in comments that CLEARLY this is NOT the best value....  Why I DO BELIEVE what she looks like now...  ad infininum.