Quote from: SHARK;114270Ethics come from God.

I won't argue religious ethics since those are deeply personal and, yes, relative. I won't be critical of one's religious views so I'd rather not continue this side of the debate.

I'm a religious person myself, so I get it spiritually but not intellectually.

By the way. As of fairly recently there was a discussion of late kickstarters.

One of the publishers came forward and related why one of their games was late.

The officials in China had deemed the books "anti China" and... burned the whole shipment. The publisher had to get the books printed elsewhere. This isnt the first time either.

Our books will be fine. You don't know the power of the Old School side!

[video=youtube;9MRHbGjW-J8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MRHbGjW-J8[/youtube]

Quote from: SHARK;1142703Greetings!

I disagree. My philosophy class distinguished Ethics being different from Morals. The idea of "Moral Relativism" is cultural poison. Ethics come from God. Otherwise, if everything is merely relative, then such an argument only appeals to might and is just a dressed up version of the law of the jungle. Person A can kill person B because. There is objective truth, and moral absolutes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

A society where person A can kill person B "because" soon falls apart. That's why human societies  evolved rules against killing one another "because," rules that are violated but exist everywhere.

Quote from: Omega;1142743By the way. As of fairly recently there was a discussion of late kickstarters.

One of the publishers came forward and related why one of their games was late.

The officials in China had deemed the books "anti China" and... burned the whole shipment. The publisher had to get the books printed elsewhere. This isnt the first time either.

Wait what?

Where was this? A link?

Quote from: SHARK;1142703Person A can kill person B because. There is objective truth, and moral absolutes.

I just want to note that people kill each other all time for various reasons, many of them deemed ethical or moral. Greek philosophy and Western civilization was founded on the concept of the "pursuit of happiness" of the individual. What achieves happiness for Person A might not be what achieves happiness for Person B.

If enough people decide on that what's best for a certain society, in a particular moment in time, then laws can be codified. These laws are neither moral nor just by their sheer existence. Slavery 160 years ago and segregation 45 years ago were considered both lawful and moral. Today, things have changed. Tomorrow, things will change again.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142413Can we be critical of the criticism? Can we try to make our voices heard at WOTC that we don't agree, and are unhappy with the direction they are taking with the disclaimers?

Yes, but this isn't a good forum to communicate to WOTC. It's a fine place to incubate and refine whatever message you want to send I'd think, but it causes zero actual communication to WOTC, if that is your intent.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1142436This is the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Woah. You REALLY need to get out more.

Quote from: Mr_X;1142469It'd be interesting to see if their sales went down after they made the change. I'd bet they're lower. What year did they decide unsexy sells?

Not sure if you are talking about T&T or D&D. Assuming D&D, 5e is selling more than any other edition of D&D ever apparently. Even apparently the golden age of AD&D 1e (though the accounting books are very iffy on total sales from that era) and definitely better than all modern versions of the game (3e, 3.5e, 4e) despite earlier versions having a lot more "sex sells" in them.

As for T&T, I am only recently interested in that game for reasons which have nothing to do with this topic (I found the old solo adventures and quite like them). I've been a fan of Flying Buffalo since the 80s, played many of their PBM games, and even went to a PBM convention of theirs in Scottsdale, Arizona, and would always talk to Rick at conventions where I saw him. I was sad when Rick Loomis passed away. He was sort of a fixture of gaming in my mind, and the idea he wasn't still plugging away on his ancient computer system spitting out PBM sheets to the few remaining players out there was a blow.

Illuminati, Lost Worlds, Nuclear War, Battle Plan, these are all great games! I always wanted to play Starweb and read the rules many times, but never made it into a game. I think I played Ace of Aces a few times? I'd like to read Starfaring some day.

Somehow I doubt Rick Loomis cared about these kinds of issues or would have wanted anything changed. But, I can't say for sure.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142759Wait what?

Where was this? A link?

I don't know if it's the book Omega was talking about, but this happened to The Sassoon Files. Google the name and you should be able to find plenty of articles and videos.

https://rollingboxcars.com/2020/01/22/an-attempt-to-destroy-the-truth-the-sassoon-files-review/

Quote from: Mistwell;1142787Yes, but this isn't a good forum to communicate to WOTC. It's a fine place to incubate and refine whatever message you want to send I'd think, but it causes zero actual communication to WOTC, if that is your intent.

Yep. So far we've been hashing over the merits and flaws of certain approaches. Some posters get a bit hyperbolic but then lots of people get that way sometimes when trying to make a point.

Quote from: Kael;1142701I didn't. Morals being relative is the core philosophical lesson of entry-level courses.

Please tell me the nonreligious reasons why morals or ethics are absolute.

And right there tells me exactly the sort of education you received, and exactly why Western society is so fucked right now.

Quote from: Brad;1142823And right there tells me exactly the sort of education you received, and exactly why Western society is so fucked right now.

Explain to me the nonreligious reasons why morals/ethics are absolute. Your statement above goes against millenia of Western philosophy and I feel very sorry for whomever educated you and the money you wasted.

Western civilization was founded on the basic principles of individual happiness. "Know thyself" and the "pursuit of happiness" for the individual are core tenets of Western civilization and thought. Plato, Socrates, et al. all valued the happiness of the individual above all else. Morality and ethics are relative to yourself. This isn't controversial at all. This is basic stuff. Religion throws those things out of the water, and I don't want to get into religious discussions.

At best, we humans adhere to a loose form of utilitarianism that varies across time and cultures.

Quote from: SHARK;1142703Person A can kill person B because. There is objective truth, and moral absolutes.

I just want to note that people kill each other all time for various reasons, many of them deemed ethical or moral. Ancient Greek philosophy and Western civilization was founded on the concept of the "pursuit of happiness" of the individual. Your statement above goes against millenia of Western philosophy. What achieves happiness for Person A might not be what achieves happiness for Person B.

If enough people decide on that what's best for a certain society, in a particular moment in time, then laws can be codified. These laws are neither moral nor just by their sheer existence. Slavery 160 years ago and segregation 45 years ago were considered both lawful and moral. Today, things have changed. Tomorrow, things will change again.

Quote from: Kael;1142856Explain to me the nonreligious reasons why morals/ethics are absolute. Your statement above goes against millenia of Western philosophy and I feel very sorry for whomever educated you and the money you wasted.

Western civilization was founded on the basic principles of individual happiness. "Know thyself" and the "pursuit of happiness" for the individual are core tenets of Western civilization and thought. Plato, Socrates, et al. all valued the happiness of the individual above all else. Morality and ethics are relative to yourself. This isn't controversial at all. This is basic stuff. Religion throws those things out of the water, and I don't want to get into religious discussions.

At best, we humans adhere to a loose form of utilitarianism that varies across time and cultures.





I just want to note that people kill each other all time for various reasons, many of them deemed ethical or moral. Greek philosophy and Western civilization was founded on the concept of the "pursuit of happiness" of the individual. Your statement above goes against millenia of Western philosophy. What achieves happiness for Person A might not be what achieves happiness for Person B.

If enough people decide on that what's best for a certain society, in a particular moment in time, then laws can be codified. These laws are neither moral nor just by their sheer existence. Slavery 160 years ago and segregation 45 years ago were considered both lawful and moral. Today, things have changed. Tomorrow, things will change again.

Greetings!

Yes, man's estimation of what is good and evil changes with the winds. In *man's* view, morality is "relative." I like the fact that God says "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever." God's laws, God's ethics remain the same. The principles laid out in the Holy Scriptures are a "lamp unto our feet" and show us the way we should go, and how we should consider things. While I certainly do love our ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, the Judeo-Christian ethics have formed the strong and enduring foundation of Western Civilization. I think that Judeo-Christian ethics and principles are the best for a civilized society.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Kael;1142856Western civilization was founded on the basic principles of individual happiness. ...

No.

Western civilization was built on three foundational pillars: Christianity, the European nations, and the Greco-Roman legacy.

Remove or erode any one of those three pillars, then Western civilization will erode/fall with varying degree's of speed.