Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1137179If people are concerned about content, it is much better to persuade readers about their positions, than get the material removed using social media pressure (which doesn't even seem like an honest barometer of public sentiment).

Like I said earlier. This isn't about education or anything like that. They simply do not want WOTC to profit from "racism". Preventing people from buying OA legitimately is their entire goal.

https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1277239086072422400

It's an effective tactic. If RPG companies can be pressured into only making woke products, then normal people can't vote with their wallets as they'll have no non-woke alternative. Of course, people can just walk away from the RPG industry just like they did for comics, but that doesn't seem matter to them.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1137184Like I said earlier. This isn't about education or anything like that. They simply do not want WOTC to profit from "racism". Preventing people from buying OA legitimately is their entire goal.

https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1277239086072422400

It's an effective tactic. If RPG companies can be pressured into only making woke products, then normal people can't vote with their wallets as they'll have no non-woke alternative. Of course, people can just walk away from the RPG industry just like they did for comics, but that doesn't seem matter to them.

You are ignoring half of my statement

Do note that their end goal is "firing the fans" - i.e. removing existing "problematic" gamers from the hobby, and replacing them with an entirely new, presumably more politically acceptable demographic. This idea emerged on RPGNet and smaller indie forums in the late 2000s, and has been simmering in the background ever since. The assumption is that this is socially desirable, and no big loss business-wise, since the new fans will be diverse, hip, and more numerous. ("Go woke, go broke" is the opposite hypothesis).

Quote from: Tyberious Funk;1137118In this particular example?  No, you are right.  But conservatives are complaining that a company shouldn't be able to do whatever they like with their own product.  

My argument is that the Asian podcast that is calling for this ban are a small minority who do not necessarily represent the larger base of consumers, and are operating from an ideological position with a warped view of reality.

In the end, WOTC can burn all of their TSR products and delete all the digital copies and post a picture on their website of a dog pissing on Gary Gyxax's grave. I think those would be terrible ideas, and I'll talk about it as long as I'm able.

I guess I should put it in my sig, since I seem to have to explain it over and over again. Just because someone has a right to do something, doesn't mean it's a very good idea.

QuoteBut you are suggesting that the SJW can't choose to not sell a product that they've already produced.  Unless you are suggesting that WotC and DTRPG are in fact not SJW companies.

I think WOTC are very likely to cave to activist pressure and remove OA from the digital marketplace. And I can think of similar reasons to ban all of TSR's products.
As a consumer, I don't like that. And I'm going to talk about why it's a terrible idea for as long as I'm able.

Quote from: Melan;1137192Do note that their end goal is "firing the fans" - i.e. removing existing "problematic" gamers from the hobby, and replacing them with an entirely new, presumably more politically acceptable demographic. This idea emerged on RPGNet and smaller indie forums in the late 2000s, and has been simmering in the background ever since. The assumption is that this is socially desirable, and no big loss business-wise, since the new fans will be diverse, hip, and more numerous. ("Go woke, go broke" is the opposite hypothesis).

So they want 70+ year old hippies to play the game, people who were actually around to protest the Vietnam War? Maybe they could get high on LSD as they sit in their rocking chairs and roll the dice!

Seriously though. The games are trying to be less diverse by doing this, not more so.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1137194My argument is that the Asian podcast that is calling for this ban are a small minority who do not necessarily represent the larger base of consumers, and are operating from an ideological position with a warped view of reality.

In the end, WOTC can burn all of their TSR products and delete all the digital copies and post a picture on their website of a dog pissing on Gary Gyxax's grave. I think those would be terrible ideas, and I'll talk about it as long as I'm able.

I guess I should put it in my sig, since I seem to have to explain it over and over again. Just because someone has a right to do something, doesn't mean it's a very good idea.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1137194My argument is that the Asian podcast that is calling for this ban are a small minority who do not necessarily represent the larger base of consumers, and are operating from an ideological position with a warped view of reality.

In the end, WOTC can burn all of their TSR products and delete all the digital copies and post a picture on their website of a dog pissing on Gary Gyxax's grave. I think those would be terrible ideas, and I'll talk about it as long as I'm able.

I guess I should put it in my sig, since I seem to have to explain it over and over again. Just because someone has a right to do something, doesn't mean it's a very good idea.

When do the copyrights expire? Maybe there ought to be a rule that if the owner of a copyright deliberately suppresses his work, he loses the copyright and it goes into the public domain. The purpose of a copyright is so the owner can earn money off of it, if he refuses to earn money, and simply owns it to suppress it, he should lose the copyright as the purpose of copyrights is not to suppress free speech.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1137184Like I said earlier. This isn't about education or anything like that. They simply do not want WOTC to profit from "racism". Preventing people from buying OA legitimately is their entire goal.

https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1277239086072422400

It's an effective tactic. If RPG companies can be pressured into only making woke products, then normal people can't vote with their wallets as they'll have no non-woke alternative. Of course, people can just walk away from the RPG industry just like they did for comics, but that doesn't seem matter to them.

It matters. If they can cancel our fun, they count that as a win. Collapsing the RPG industry would be that kind of victory for them, even though we could continue playing with the books we already have.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137199When do the copyrights expire? Maybe there ought to be a rule that if the owner of a copyright deliberately suppresses his work, he loses the copyright and it goes into the public domain. The purpose of a copyright is so the owner can earn money off of it, if he refuses to earn money, and simply owns it to suppress it, he should lose the copyright as the purpose of copyrights is not to suppress free speech.

Well, that's a whole nother can of worms, and I'm no expert on copyright law, or how such a situation could or would be enforced.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1137184Like I said earlier. This isn't about education or anything like that. They simply do not want WOTC to profit from "racism". Preventing people from buying OA legitimately is their entire goal.

https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1277239086072422400

It's an effective tactic. If RPG companies can be pressured into only making woke products, then normal people can't vote with their wallets as they'll have no non-woke alternative. Of course, people can just walk away from the RPG industry just like they did for comics, but that doesn't seem matter to them.

Well you know, if they don't want to profit from "racism" they could always forfeit their copyright to public domain so anyone can publish it. The purpose of a copyright is not to suppress certain written works but to profit from them, if they chose not to profit, then they should give up their copyright and then their conscious will be clear because they won't be earning a profit from it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1137201Well, that's a whole nother can of worms, and I'm no expert on copyright law, or how such a situation could or would be enforced.

Copyrights are to encourage the writing and printing of books, not surpress them. If the owner does not use his copyright over a certain period of time, then copyright law is not serving the purpose of encouraging the free flow of information, then there should be a law where the copyright owner loses his copyright. This is comparable to a broadcaster that owns the right to broadcast on a certain frequency but does not use it in order to surpress competing radio stations.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1137201Well, that's a whole nother can of worms, and I'm no expert on copyright law, or how such a situation could or would be enforced.

Trademark has a use it or lose it provision built it.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137202Well you know, if they don't want to profit from "racism" they could always forfeit their copyright to public domain so anyone can publish it. The purpose of a copyright is not to suppress certain written works but to profit from them, if they chose not to profit, then they should give up their copyright and then their conscious will be clear because they won't be earning a profit from it.

The purpose of copyright is to encourage the creation of creative arts by giving creators the exclusive right over how copies are made and distributed. For more this is a mean of profiting from one's own creative efforts. Others have different priorities.

While Trademarks have a use it or lose it provision, this has never been the case for copyright. The closest copyright came is when the US and other countries where copyright was granted for x time and you could extend it if you applied for a renewal. The old 28 years plus 28 years on renewal. Which is why some golden age sf authors and some conan stories are now public domains because the magazines in which they first published their stories were never renewed and expired prior to 1964.

I am personally in favor of going back to the old 28 plus 28 term as being long enough for an author to profit off of their works. I also thing when the 28 year renewal comes up only the original author is allowed to do it and all rights are restored to the author when it occurs. This is to check the abuse of novice authors and musicians by publishers and recording studios.

Within that time however I think the author should not have to worry about losing copyright. Trademark style loopholes only benefit large corporations with the resource to fund a large legal department.

The only way to win this fight is through counter pressure. Show that this is an effort by a small number of people not an issue for the larger hobby.  I don't think that OA is a great supplement for using the myths and legends of eastern Asia for AD&D or fantasy campaigns. But it never came across as racist or drawing on racist source material like the old stereotype of the yellow peril that riddled golden and silver age comic books. It is a bland mishmash of several myths and legends of China, Japan, and SE Asia.

One problem with using terms like Oriental, Far East, etc, is their lack of precision. Thanks to the explosion of interest in the culture and history of many Asian countries like Japan, China, and Korea, we have a better idea of what makes each distinct including their myths and legends. Another it is long association with institutions that were in existence during the age of imperialism in Asia.

As others have pointed out, D&D is a mishmash of european medeival wargames, Hammer horror films, fantasy books themselves based on european mythology, and a sprinkling of older mythologies.
It's no more or less "accurate" than Oriental Adventures was.

Remember: these people are bookburners. Perhaps cowardly ones who have not lit up a pile of forbidden literature yet, but the intent is there.



Sure, at this point, at least a few Mensheviks are raising concerns about going this far. But RPGNet is a pretty Menshevik place all things considered.