Quote from: Mistwell;1139921None of that ruins your life. They didn't pull any books they put up a meaningless disclaimer. But even if they had pulled some old PDFs it would not "ruin your life". Particularly since it wasn't that long ago that these books were not even for sale. You're being a drama queen. Admit your life is not ruined by any of this bullshit if you want to be taken seriously.

Where did I say any of this "ruined my life?"
Are we only allowed to post about life ruining things? Where are your rules so I can post in a way you approve of?

Stop being a drama queen over other people's posts. We're concerned about WOTC taking a piss on our hobby, and are going to talk about it. Not sorry if that gets your panties in a bunch.

Quote from: Mistwell;1139922You ARE behaving like SJWs if you endorse a message of "don't play 5e even if you like it" and "you're ruining my life" by putting a disclaimer on a PDF of an old book almost nobody is buying.  If you don't like the comparison, then don't behave like whiny little entitled shits maybe? Because you are in fact just the other side of the same coin with SJW the way you're behaving right now. There is nothing smart about this kind of bullshit behavior.

Everyone on this thread, except perhaps for you (shock) has expressed concern about WOTC actions towards old editions. Some people are discussing the best way to express this concern to WOTC. Hey, sunshine! Boycotts are a valid way of communicating dissatisfaction.
Are you afraid it might get results?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1139967Everyone on this thread, except perhaps for you (shock) has expressed concern about WOTC actions towards old editions. Some people are discussing the best way to express this concern to WOTC. Hey, sunshine! Boycotts are a valid way of communicating dissatisfaction.
Are you afraid it might get results?

His cognitive dissonance about how gaming and politics intersect is getting too much for him to handle.

Quote from: Mistwell;1139923Brad, the tactic of "Don't play games you like because the company that makes them is morally objectionable to me" is in fact just as bad as what SJW do. WOTC is not in fact trying to "destroy your life" by putting a stupid disclaimer on their old PDFs, and endorsing that kind of message is just as whiny as any of the bullshit SJWs do. If you think behaving exactly like SJW is the way to beat SJWs, good luck with that. And yes, I do have the fucking moral high ground on both SJWs and the weak ass whiny bullshit moral policing going on in this thread simultaneously. It's not hard, as y'all are all hanging in the gutter together at the moment. Be better. Call out your own when the behave like this. It's what we'd want those on the left to do to SJWs, right?

I never said don't play 5th edition, ever. WTF do I care what people choose to play? I won't be buying any more WotC crap, though, if they're going to shit all over the older games and essentially tell me I'm a racist for not thinking OA is "problematic". I'm not endorsing any message, simply pointing out that SJWs have been demonstrably shown to keep pushing and pushing and pushing until what they dislike is totally destroyed.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139958Okay... not that I'm not critical of those podcasters/twitter heroes, their arguments and their goals: But that is quite far from what they actually want, namely for WotC to pull or demonetize the book. Which is fitting, seeing as how they apparently got it from [download site name redacted] themselves.
That is less of a slippery slope argument and more of a slippery chasm argument.

You sure about that? Are you? Cf. Seattle and Portland, BLM, "we just don't like confederate statues", etc...they're not going to stop.

I wouldn't ever imply to someone that if they keep using a game they no longer support commercially going forward, because they like the game itself, that they're not being sufficiently helpful to the cause.

I also wouldn't imply to someone, that if they no longer want to serve as a feeder point into the system they no longer commercially support going forward, that they're akin to what they oppose.  That's the sort of position a lawyer in the entertainment media industry would take.  Holding one side to their rhetoric while the other side trashes that rhetoric is exactly what the other side desires; they're the only ones presenting as an economic bloc to the corps.  "No war, no peace" is about the single most idiotic strategic position a party can take.

Quote from: Brad;1139975You sure about that? Are you?

Hmmm... yes.

Look, I've listened in to some of these guys' podcasts. They are ignoramuses, but they are not that delusional.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1139420Because we have the urge to kill humans who are different from us. So in our fantasy (including modern zombie films and games) we want something which is human enough to satisfy the urge to kill humans who are different from us, but inhuman enough that we don't feel guilty about it.

This is exactly why stormtroopers wear helmets.

Gamers feel great killing almost-human monsters, but there's a fraction who aren't as good and easy with killing human opponents. It's one of the reasons humanocentric games and settings have a smaller fanbase. In Traveller and Cyberpunk, you mostly pop fellow humans and those games have a less of a following than Shadowrun where you pop a mix of humans & monsters.  

Quote from: Mistwell;1139509How about this for a principal: "Don't tell others it's badwrongfun to play games they like."

This is a free speech forum. We can say whatever we like.

However, that's not what we're saying.

We are saying IF you are not happy with WotC and other woke publishers who are shoveling bullshit into the hobby, THEN it's high time to find other games to play AND there exists a phenomenal amount of great games waiting to be played.

Anyone who enjoys the SJW bullshit can keep guzzling it. It's still a free country.

We're ONLY talking to people who don't want to ride the woke train.

Quote from: Mistwell;1139509Here is another principal: "Don't tell others to make a sacrifice you're unwilling to make."

I agree with this.

Quote from: Razor 007;1139771Not buying from WOTC anymore, is an argument I understand.  Not playing 5E anymore with products I already own, is not an argument I understand?  I intend to use my own property.  They've already made and spent that money by now, anyway.

Let me explain.  

The concept I (and others) are suggesting has these steps.

1) Don't buy from woke publishers.
2) Take those dollars and do buy from not-woke publishers. (shift the economics)
3) Play / share / promote great stuff you discover from these not-woke publishers. (shift the focus)

I totally understand wanting to play with stuff you already bought, but here's the problem. We all have limited free time, thus limited gaming time. As RPGing is a social hobby, by playing the games of the woke publishers, we are enforcing their woke brand with our fellow players. This is especially true when running public game events as you effectively advertising whatever you are running.

In contrast, I suggest focusing our play time (and online promotion time) on whatever great and wonderful games are being made by not-woke publishers. Therefore, their not-woke brand gets shared and enforced with our players instead.  

AKA, we use our time, effort and money to evangelize for publishers we want to succeed.

Quote from: Shasarak;1139873Is it bad to say that a Zombie Baby could be useful resource?  You could make a little cage and bring it out when you need it.

We did that!! But as we couldn't find a soundproof box, the GM had us unable to get a good night's sleep because the dead baby kept crying and drawing attention to us. He was super creeped out that we captured the thing and planned to use it as a mascot/weapon.

So we left it nailed to a door of a house. Which upset the GM even more and we had to have THE TALK about not giving our group of players toys that you don't want us to have.

Quote from: Omega;1139920Or Weyland-Yutani in Aliens thinking that the aliens could be controlled and used.

One of the most fun Traveller-Aliens games I ran was a Weyland-Yutani extraction team whose job it was to capture aliens and eggs. There was even a traitor in the group, effectively an anti-Burke who tried to convince the mercs to betray the company and save Earth.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1140026Hmmm... yes.

Look, I've listened in to some of these guys' podcasts. They are ignoramuses, but they are not that delusional.

And you'd be wrong.  So profoundly, incredibly wrong.  

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1139967Are you afraid it might get results?

Im more afraid it will get exactly the wrong result.

A petition to WOTC was just so blatantly stupid a thing to do. Its like petitioning Hitler to stop being mean to the Jews.

WOTC will take this to Habro and spin doctor it as damning proof that WOTC is in the right and that these horrible older fans are all racists.

Initiate the Final Solution...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140028We did that!! But as we couldn't find a soundproof box, the GM had us unable to get a good night's sleep because the dead baby kept crying and drawing attention to us. He was super creeped out that we captured the thing and planned to use it as a mascot/weapon.

So we left it nailed to a door of a house. Which upset the GM even more and we had to have THE TALK about not giving our group of players toys that you don't want us to have.

I think that is a good lesson for DMs everywhere.

Quote from: Omega;1140041Im more afraid it will get exactly the wrong result.

A petition to WOTC was just so blatantly stupid a thing to do. Its like petitioning Hitler to stop being mean to the Jews.

WOTC will take this to Habro and spin doctor it as damning proof that WOTC is in the right and that these horrible older fans are all racists.

Initiate the Final Solution...

Godwin aside, if WOTC can successfully spin it like that, then nothing we do will make a difference. It's time to leave the Farm.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140028This is exactly why stormtroopers wear helmets.

Gamers feel great killing almost-human monsters, but there's a fraction who aren't as good and easy with killing human opponents. It's one of the reasons humanocentric games and settings have a smaller fanbase. In Traveller and Cyberpunk, you mostly pop fellow humans and those games have a less of a following than Shadowrun where you pop a mix of humans & monsters.

I don't think that's really the case. I just think that people tend to be more attracted to the fantasy stuff and having the option to play non-humans, than dealing with gritty realism or hard sci-fi. Standard mooks in SR still tend to be human, people just wanna play elves and trolls, or have street shammies who can talk with spirits in the alleyway.

Straight cyberpunk is also depressing (even though I love the genre) and harder to make compelling stories for. Everyone's just a cynical merc killing for money and there's no heroism, unless you can hit a decent rebel storyline, which still tend to get bogged down with people going crazy, betrayals, power going to the rebel leaders heads, etc. in traditional cyberpunk. People usually just want mindless heroics in games, not losing limbs left and right, or delving into the human condition and the depressing dark future that awaits us (and we're already kinda living).

FYI, I'm NOT calling for a boycott of woke publishers.

I'm calling for engagement with non-woke publishers.

AKA, why try to "fix" the crazy, self-destructive ex when the sweet new hotness is calling?

It's important to look at what shifting an economy means in real world terms.

If a mini-mall has a McDonalds and a mom & pop restaurant, most people will eat at the McDs. It's the name brand with generations of nostalgia baked into crapass product. If 100 people each week stop going to McDs, its a blip to their profit margin BUT if those same 100 people took their weekly business to the mom & pop, they would massively affect the mom & pop's profit margin.

Here's the real world math. A McDs franchises easily do $500k/month GROSS. The average mom & pop do $50k/month on average GROSS. 100 customers x $10/week equals a $4000/month. The economic shift means McDs loses .8% of its monthly revenue while the mom & pop gains 8% revenue.

AKA, the number of gamers sick of the SJW bullshit can't meaningfully affect WotC's bottom line, but can vastly increase the bottom line of a small publisher.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140061I'm calling for engagement with non-woke publishers.

Remember that the OGL is a thing now so it does not mater if Hasbro closes down the WotC RPG business because man it would be a real shame if Hasbro closed down the WotC PG business.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139961Well, playing is not really issue here, is it? Buying is. Buying means, essentially, economically and morally supporting a person or company whose actions you find reprehensible. And while I have a very high level of tolerance before I even consider such questions, your latter example would certainly beyond that level of tolerance.

If he's an accused child rapist, he is innocent until proven guilty, in which case I go ahead and buy. If he's a convicted child rapist, he's in prison so he can't benefit from his sales, in which case I go ahead and buy. Likewise with others. Criminal wrongdoing should be dealt with by the law, including membership of criminal or terrorist organisations. Any conduct short of that I don't care about outside my own social circle.

If material produced by someone with offensive ideology were good, I would buy it. But it usually isn't. And that's because a good game (or book, movie, etc) is made by someone whose main goal is entertaining people. But the ideologue doesn't want to entertain people, they want to convert them. They produce only propaganda. Propaganda well-done can be fun, see for example Top Gun or Rocky IV. But that's because though propaganda, they were also trying to produce entertainment - and entertainment came first.

Ideologues will struggle with this, so that most of what they produce will be shit. Which is why they want to get rid of offending texts, movies and so on - they can't handle the competition. Hot Wax and Whips by those two drongoes who hated Oriental Adventures will be lucky to sell a dozen copies, and will not be played by anyone, because the sort of people who'd buy a BDSM rpg don't have any friends. Only by getting rid of every other rpg in existence does theirs have any hope of even being reviewed.

I have never bought or played an rpg by anyone with truly offensive ideology. "Micro" aggressions like using "he" rather than "they" don't count, I mean ideology advocating mass murder and that sort of thing. But I've not bought of played them because they weren't any good.

1. Produce something good and
2. Sell it.

Ideologues struggle with the first of these two, and Kickstarters were invented for the people who don't understand capitalism and want to do the process backwards and get handouts and make promises they'll never fulfil (remember James M? and now Raggi?)

Quote from: SpinachatGamers feel great killing almost-human monsters, but there's a fraction who aren't as good and easy with killing human opponents.

Quote from: VisionStormI don't think that's really the case. I just think that people tend to be more attracted to the fantasy stuff and having the option to play non-humans, than dealing with gritty realism or hard sci-fi.

Both are true. People want a fantasy setting and they want to kill almost-human monsters.

Quote from: VisionStormPeople usually just want mindless heroics in games, not losing limbs left and right, or delving into the human condition and the depressing dark future that awaits us (and we're already kinda living).

Dark and gloomy done well will be popular. I mean, Z-Nation is goofy, and  is dark and gloomy - but which was more popular and ran for longer? The Walking Dead, because it was done well. I've seen just a few episodes of each, the goofy one looks like a fan film, the effects are poor enough to be distracting, the acting is hammed up; the dark and gloomy one has much better production values and acting.

Ideology, tone, whatever - these things are secondary to how well it's done. If you produce good stuff, people will watch, read, listen or play - even if it's giving them a message whose tone or details they don't normally go for. I can enjoy Rage Against the Machine even though I'm not a greedy capitalist hypocritically pretending to be an anarcho-syndicalist. Makes good workout music for the heavy days in the gym.