Quote from: David Johansen;1139096Something that occurred to me recently is that the Social Justice Warriors must really hate pulp and that it's the pulp elements of D&D that they hate.  I'm not sure what it means, but I doubt Doc Savage, The Shadow, Tarzan, or John Carter would get a pass if they were more popular.

There was bitching about "white mans burden" in John Carter till we pointed out to these nutcases that in fact its all about a person going totally native, (or possibly was for all intents and purposes native to begin with. He isnt exactly human.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;1139200If they replaced every instance of "Race" with "Species" in every RPG, would that shut you the fuck up with your idiotic delusions about how calling Orcs "savage" is like calling black people "savage"?

Of course it wont. Because next iteration of this mental disease they will just claim "Well you know species is just a replacement for 'race' and that is racist and must be 'fixed'!" Because theyve done it before.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139146That description, however, fits a ton of cultures. Including those Western civilization regards as its revered forefathers. Not really an argument, much less so in a fantasy RPG.

Full stop.  No, they don't.  My ancestors didn't drag slaves to the top of a pyramid and cut hearts out to keep the sun from going out. I don't buy into moral relativism. Moral relativism CERTAINLY does not belong in D&D - alignments are baked in, and a real 'thing' the Aztecs were an Evil culture by D&D standards  (I'm leaning to Lawful Evil).  That does not mean every member of the society was, in fact, most probably weren't.

The world used to be (still is in places) much more of a nasty, zero-sum place, where for you to get more, somebody else had to lose something.  I'll come back to that.

Every culture has blood on its hands, true.

QuoteThe problem you can see here is twofold:
a.) Explicitly conflating "race" or species if you will with culture.
b.) Intentionally writing a culture so that it has no redeeming features and you can feel good about killing its members. I don't really want or need such a thing.

There are plenty of games that can provide that.  Play something completely human-centric then, or something like Ironclaw with anthros.  Orcs and similar critters fill an 'ecological' niche in the dungeon-crawl derived games, they're the classic mooks, the imperial stormtroopers, Agents of Hydra, nameless faceless fucks that get between you and the big bad.  

You want the angsty woe-is-me I'm treated like a monster... we have half-orcs for that.  

QuoteThere is no and I would argue there cannot be any real human culture (for whatever 'a culture' is anyway) or society that would make me feel alright about slaughtering anyone born into it, including children. And if you write a fictional culture with the intention of making it so, I would ask you: Why?

Definition of culture
the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time  

So you can HAVE the hordes of evil rapacious monsters that the heroes fight.  Otherwise you end up playing Power Rangers where the mooks are just made of clay, or where all the villains minions 'happen' to be robots like a children's afternoon television show.  

QuoteOrcs in Tolkien were basically robots created to do evil. Or clones, if you will. There is no indication whatsoever that they had a society, families or that they were in the terms discussed here a "race". They are simple, if intelligent tools created by an evil wizard.

And that's fine by me.

So you agree that this nonsense about 'orcs are people too' is exactly that nonsense?  

QuoteBut if you depart from that in fantasy RPGs and make them a "race" or a culture, that concept no longer works.

I agree - they're in the Monster Manual

QuoteBecause then you inevitably get questions like "Are they all like that? Why? Are there any ones among them who want to change that? Are they born like that? If you raised their children different, would they not be like that? If you overpowered them and taught them better ways, could they see the benefit?" and so on.

Some groups would enjoy the nuance and trying this; in some settings I could see an attempt similar to the American Indian Boarding schools of the 19th century - the Misbegotten Realms seems to have endless resources available to the 'good guys'.  In other settings, the merciful thing is to kill the young so they don't starve.  

The flip side of this is what happens if you try, and the little orc whelp bites the fingers off the nursemaid?  And keeps doing it?  What do you do?  What if as soon as they're old enough they strangle and eat the smaller, weaker whelps?

Different DMs have different answers for which way it works in their campaign.  MOTC shouldn't answer this question one way or the other in their core books - they want to write Kumbaya settings, go for it.  

QuoteAnd if your answer is that you don't care and you just want enemies to murder without any second thoughts, then I'd ask why they need to be a 'race' or a 'culture' instead of the original concept outlined above?

They don't, but that's the direction MOTC is moving in, and that's what I'm arguing against.  I honestly suspect we're most of the way to agreement, but are getting hung up on pedantics.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1139239My ancestors didn't drag slaves to the top of a pyramid and cut hearts out to keep the sun from going out.

Paging Geeky Bugle! :p:cool:

I'm sure ALL of us have ancestors who did shitty things to innocent people somewhere in our family tree.

But regardless, we are NOT responsible for their actions. Only our own.

That's much of my hatred for WotC's woke nonsense because they are pushing "collective guilt" on D&D players, as if we are all responsible if (and I do mean if) anyone in the past was excluded from the hobby because of their sex junk or skin color. The whole "we must do better" means we - as the collective hobby community - did something deemed "wrong" in the past. And by "wrong", I mean whatever -ist is most popular on Twitter today.

Based on my experience with the RPG community over 4+ decades, we did just fine and as a whole, we went out of our way to be welcoming to all (which apparently was also our mistake).

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139242Paging Geeky Bugle! :p:cool:

I'm sure ALL of us have ancestors who did shitty things to innocent people somewhere in our family tree.

But regardless, we are NOT responsible for their actions. Only our own.

That's much of my hatred for WotC's woke nonsense because they are pushing "collective guilt" on D&D players, as if we are all responsible if (and I do mean if) anyone in the past was excluded from the hobby because of their sex junk or skin color. The whole "we must do better" means we - as the collective hobby community - did something deemed "wrong" in the past. And by "wrong", I mean whatever -ist is most popular on Twitter today.

Based on my experience with the RPG community over 4+ decades, we did just fine and as a whole, we went out of our way to be welcoming to all (which apparently was also our mistake).

Greetings!

Indeed, my brother! I totally agree. The RPG hobby has always been open, friendly, and welcoming, to most anyone and everyone. Men, women, and people of whatever colour and race. Jackasses have never been entirely welcome, and in the time we find ourselves in now, it seems to have become crystal clear that we have to be more *exclusive*--not merely gatekeeping the rude jackass out, but also the SJW crowd. All of their Marxist bullshit is toxic and poisonous to our society as a whole--we shouldn't therefore be surprised that precisely such socially retarded, brainwashed Marxists are also toxic and poisonous to our own game hobby.

The Marxist SJW's, the BLM mob, all of these social misfits must not only be shunned and excluded from our hobby in general, but also the various game development companies and publishers, as well as the conventions. They need to be kept out, because they are not genuine gamers--they are Marxist activists seeking to corrupt, poison, and destroy everything that they can get their hands on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: LiferGamer;1139239Full stop.  No, they don't.  My ancestors didn't drag slaves to the top of a pyramid and cut hearts out to keep the sun from going out.

Of course I don't know exactly who your ancestors were but under the IME reasonable assumption that you identify at least a major portion of them as Anglo-Saxon, Germanic or Celtish/British/Gaulish you're correct - because they did not build pyramids.
Sacrifice humans for religious ceremonies - they absolutely did. And how.

And of course, I was also referring to Roman culture, which prided itself of not having human sacrifice but practiced the brutal slaughter of prisoners and slaves under other pretenses - which is what I would call moral relativism. Your definition of moral relativism seems to be an entirely defensive one - i.e. simply the opposite of your personal moral certainties. I don't see that as helpful or relevant because it is simply a rephrasing of 'I know what's right'.

QuoteSo you agree that this nonsense about 'orcs are people too' is exactly that nonsense?

No, orcs in D&D are indeed presented as people. Tolkien orcs aren't.

QuoteSo you can HAVE the hordes of evil rapacious monsters that the heroes fight. Otherwise you end up playing Power Rangers where the mooks are just made of clay, or where all the villains minions 'happen' to be robots like a children's afternoon television show.

What would be the problem if they were all made of clay? Or grew from spores, as WH40K Orks do?

QuoteThe flip side of this is what happens if you try, and the little orc whelp bites the fingers off the nursemaid?

There is no indication that they are capable of doing that. But more relevantly, there is no reason why they should. If you posit that they just behave like wild animals (who don't behave like that, actually, but oh well...) then how did they ever become any kind of culture in the first place?

QuoteI honestly suspect we're most of the way to agreement

I don't see that.
It appears to me that your stance is exactly what I had described in my previous posting. Correct me if I'm wrong: You want orcs just as targets to be murdered. But apparently, at the same time you don't want them to be soulless automatons in the vein of Tolkien's orcs, because that would be 'like a children's show'.
So you want (in the game of course) to feel good about slaughtering orcs, but at the same time you want them to have families you thereby destroy and children you thereby orphan, in short you want them to be able to suffer; and you want your orcs to be tailor-written to be such justifiable targets of genocide.

Greetings!

Rats are mammals, like humans. They also have a society, social order, and mates, with offspring. Rats also possess intellect, social capacity, and emotions.

I don't feel remorse for having Rats exterminated from my property--every last one of them, at every opportunity. Rats, by their inherent natures of being *RATS* are predatory scavengers, that are cunning, vicious, and remorseless in their pursuit of food and territory. RATS do not care one bit if they bite and terrorize any nearby children, elderly, or beloved pets, such as dogs. Rats are a dangerous vermin. Rats can also corrupt food stores, spread disease, and damage facilities from wiring, textiles, and wood, if not more.

Orcs are much like Rats, except for being upright in a humanoid stature, and have the power of vocalized speech. They additionally possess the greater intellect to make use of armour and weapons, as well as other tools and war machines. They are in strong respects much like the Rats.

Therefore, no one should feel remorse about hunting down and killing Orcs, wherever they are found. Also much like Rats, on occasion, there is a particular offshoot breed or an individual Rat that demonstrates a pleasant and friendly character. In such circumstances, we customarily permit such friendly Rats to live under our guardianship. The rest of the Rat hordes? They are exterminated ruthlessly. Again, an apt analogy with Orcs seems quite appropriate.

The vast majority of Orcs are quite fit to be hunted down and killed at every opportunity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Okay, so why again do you want to portray your orcs like the Nazis portrayed Jews? I don't see what that gives me in game terms.

(And yes, I very much know that genocidal brutality in a game is not the same as in the real world.)

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139254Of course I don't know exactly who your ancestors were but under the IME reasonable assumption that you identify at least a major portion of them as Anglo-Saxon, Germanic or Celtish/British/Gaulish you're correct - because they did not build pyramids.
Sacrifice humans for religious ceremonies - they absolutely did. And how.

And of course, I was also referring to Roman culture, which prided itself of not having human sacrifice but practiced the brutal slaughter of prisoners and slaves under other pretenses - which is what I would call moral relativism. Your definition of moral relativism seems to be an entirely defensive one - i.e. simply the opposite of your personal moral certainties. I don't see that as helpful or relevant because it is simply a rephrasing of 'I know what's right'.

I'm not going to argue about moral relativism; I'm not the wordsmith that some folks here are, but I also haven't been educated beyond the level of my intelligence.

As for Rome, the descendants of the people conquered by Rome ended up with a higher standard of living, could achieve citizenship, and objectively better lives.  The Aztecs didn't assimilate, they continued to dominate.  But they were just an example since you didn't recognize an evil human culture, I offered one, and you responded by saying 'they all are'.  I should have gone with Democratic Kampuchea.


All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

Brought peace!

QuoteNo, orcs in D&D are indeed presented as people. Tolkien orcs aren't.


What would be the problem if they were all made of clay? Or grew from spores, as WH40K Orks do?

Then they wouldn't be D&D orcs would they?  They'd be some sort of construct, or Orks respectively.  

QuoteThere is no indication that they are capable of doing that. But more relevantly, there is no reason why they should. If you posit that they just behave like wild animals (who don't behave like that, actually, but oh well...) then how did they ever become any kind of culture in the first place?

Yes, there is.  They're EVIL.  Created by gawds who make them EVIL.  They don't feel compassion.  They're don't have a culture by the standards of civilized races - they're more akin to large wolf packs that have tools.  

Or they're not, depending on your setting/DM; like I said in the last post, MOTC should leave the baseline alone, and then have the DM decide which way to spin it, or publish their hippy lovefest setting thing where orcs are just another one of the civilized races.

QuoteI don't see that.
It appears to me that your stance is exactly what I had described in my previous posting. Correct me if I'm wrong: You want orcs just as targets to be murdered. But apparently, at the same time you don't want them to be soulless automatons in the vein of Tolkien's orcs, because that would be 'like a children's show'.

That's right.  I find the stakes more interesting when opponents have a real investment, and a sense of self and/or purpose.

QuoteSo you want (in the game of course) to feel good about slaughtering orcs, but at the same time you want them to have families you thereby destroy and children you thereby orphan, in short you want them to be able to suffer; and you want your orcs to be tailor-written to be such justifiable targets of genocide.

Yes.  War is suffering.  Orcs -thrive- on it.  In fighting these monsters, our heroes become monstrous.  That's where I find my shades of grey in the game.  Spattered with blood.

What I want is orcs to fit into the world - they hunt, kill, eat and breed like any other living creature - I don't want endless video game enemies, and I damn sure don't want everything to be like a bad Shonen Jump, where the power of friendship solves all, and it turns out the villains were just misunderstood.

If you want compelling story gaming, it's out there; I just don't think a game designed with heavy combat, XP based on killing, and a long history of being JRR's work with the serial numbers filed off is the best choice for it.  You seem to want everything [50?] shades of grey, orcs are people too, and you filthy adventurers need to show some understanding, that priest of Gruumsh is just practicing his culture when he plucks your eye out.

Again, good and evil, gods and demons aren't metaphors, abstracts, or quaint old-fashioned ideas in D&D, they are real, legitimate and literally measurable forces - orcs have to date always been legitimately evil, anthrophagic, raping MONSTERS.

In regards to genocide vs. spare the young - I'll repeat that that is setting dependent.  In my campaign, a Lawful Good family would be hard pressed to take in an innocent orphan human, and would be putting their entire family in jeopardy because the resources just aren't there - a little green squealer would be out of the question.  In the Misbegotten Realms?  I'm sure El Monster has an orphanage tucked away somewhere for them.  

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139258Okay, so why again do you want to portray your orcs like the Nazis portrayed Jews? I don't see what that gives me in game terms.

(And yes, I very much know that genocidal brutality in a game is not the same as in the real world.)

Because UNLIKE jews, orcs are devouring, diseased, eat-their-own-young nasty creatures?

Quote from: SHARK;1139257Orcs are much like Rats, except for being upright in a humanoid stature, and have the power of vocalized speech. They additionally possess the greater intellect to make use of armour and weapons, as well as other tools and war machines. They are in strong respects much like the Rats.

Therefore, no one should feel remorse about hunting down and killing Orcs, wherever they are found. Also much like Rats, on occasion, there is a particular offshoot breed or an individual Rat that demonstrates a pleasant and friendly character. In such circumstances, we customarily permit such friendly Rats to live under our guardianship. The rest of the Rat hordes? They are exterminated ruthlessly. Again, an apt analogy with Orcs seems quite appropriate.

Its a bit more nuanced than that really. Orcs are more like people. There are good ones, and bad ones, or in OD&D, neutral ones and chaotic ones. The bad ones are no different from a bunch of bandits who rob and kill, or a evil warlord who razes cities to the ground for fun and profit or just because they can. According to the original players seems from the get-go D&D orcs could be... whatever. Its just that the majority were not exactly nice. Keep in mind too they were pre-2e a race of beast folk.

By 2e orcs were becoming increasingly humanoid.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139258Okay, so why again do you want to portray your orcs like the Nazis portrayed Jews? I don't see what that gives me in game terms.

(And yes, I very much know that genocidal brutality in a game is not the same as in the real world.)

off topic. But... I dont recall Jews laying waste to civilizations and carrying off the populace to eat. So not exactly the same thing there.

It is though still a poor comparison as orcs are not animals.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139258Okay, so why again do you want to portray your orcs like the Nazis portrayed Jews? I don't see what that gives me in game terms.

(And yes, I very much know that genocidal brutality in a game is not the same as in the real world.)

When Orcs have an austere religious scholar preaching for peace and up turning tables in the Temple of Gruumsh then we can compare them to the Jews.

Quote from: Omega;1139265off topic. But... I dont recall Jews laying waste to civilizations and carrying off the populace to eat. So not exactly the same thing there.

It is though still a poor comparison as orcs are not animals.

Greetings!

Well, indeed, Omega, throughout the various editions there have always been optional rules for Orcs to be whatever alignment the DM wants. However, going by the various official Monster Manuals, all Orcs--or the majority of the Orc populations, are of Evil alignment. Beyond their alignment, while Orcs are not *animals*--they are far *worse* than animals--Orcs are usually of an Evil alignment, and are *monsters* They are monstrous humanoids, savage, warlike, rapacious, greedy, cruel, and cannibalistic. They also worship savage, evil gods, and embrace human sacrifice and all manner of terrifying and horrific customs and practices. They immensely enjoy plundering, torture, slavery and conquest.

So, unlike natural *animals*--who, whatever their fierce and unsavory character, such as the much-maligned, dangerous, diseased Rats--Orcs actively grow, train, and scheme to bring war, slavery and death to human societies. Generation after generation.

Certainly individual DM's can choose to make Orcs deeply moral creatures, with a rich and complex civilization, fully capable of human-like culture, with the full spectrum of human emotions and morality. That is fine. That isn't really the baseline assumption or depiction of Orcs though. Whichever cultural depiction that a DM chooses for their campaign is of course appropriate. However, choosing one particular cultural or racial depiction doesn't make the other selection in some way wrong or "problematic."

In my own campaigns, set in the World of Thandor, I actually embrace both concepts. The vast majority of Orcs in my campaign world are savage, evil monsters. However, there are a few tribes, and a minority population of Orcs within a larger, evil Orc Kingdom that are of Neutral or even Good alignment. Such minority populations of non-evil Orcs in such an environment are moral misfits, and often oppressed, harassed, and thoroughly discriminated against, as they are considered "evil", weak, rejecting the ancient ways of the tribe, and so forth.

Most of the larger Orc populations in my campaign world are savage and evil monsters though, and implacable foes of humanity and all that is righteous and Good.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1139258Okay, so why again do you want to portray your orcs like the Nazis portrayed Jews? I don't see what that gives me in game terms.

(And yes, I very much know that genocidal brutality in a game is not the same as in the real world.)

Greetings!

Well, in my campaign world of Thandor, I portray the majority of Orcs, and the majority of whatever tribal societies and brutal kingdoms that they come from as savage, evil monsters that live for war, conquest, rape and plunder. They worship dark, evil gods, embrace slavery, human sacrifice, and all manner of torture and horrific customs and practices. Most Orcs eagerly take humans and other humanoids captive, torture them in horrific ways, before eating them. Sometimes such hapless captives are roasted slowly over crackling fires, as the hungry Orcs eagerly gather around in the shadows, anticipating such a great feast!

Most Orc societies are presented thusly as a symbol of the worst and most terrifying aspects of human nature, writ large. They thus provide constant danger, and struggle for survival. The Orcs are not Human, and do not have human morality and sensibilities. Orcs do not typically embrace Kumbiya. They embrace their own customs, their own cultures, their own brutal and savage ways--and do not feel remorse or guilty for doing so. Other races are generally viewed as slaves and food, and are deemed to be pathetic and weak, and deserve to be crushed ruthlessly under the Orc's boots. The majority of Orcs simply do not value what Humans value. They reject our moralizing, our desire for pace and harmony. Orcs view Humans as being weak, dirty animals that *need* to be kept as useful slaves, broken to the yoke of slavery and chains. Humans and their allies are viewed often as cunning, like snakes, and lovers of everything that is feminine and decadent. Talk, books, frilly clothes, worthless trinkets and baubles. The Humans shall pay, and they shall be crushed. Humans make for good meat, and those not devoured in the great feasts and are deemed favoured, are suitable for chains, and kept as breeding slaves. That is a core foundation for most Orc philosophy towards Humans in particular, but also other Good aligned races and cultures. I tend to enjoy the harsh contrasts between Human cultures and Orc cultures. Having more than a very few Orcs be all Kumbiya and sweet and nice, and just misunderstood by Humans and their allies--I think that tends to be loaded with too much philosophical sugar, and makes Orcs *more* like Humans, and less like Monsters. Monsters are dramatic, vivid, and different. Happy, sweet Orcs are just more of the same, and ultimately very boring and non-dramatic. Evil, savage, monster Orcs provide tension, drama, and cultural, religious, and philosophical contrast in stark ways that benefit the campaign milieu.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK