Not sure it has been mentioned already but saw a petition created to remove the disclaimer labels has been mentioned on a few RPG website blogs:
(Hope a support link is o.k. under forum guidelines)

https://www.change.org/p/company-wizards-com-wizards-of-the-coast-should-remove-the-disclaimer-statement-on-all-of-its-legacy-products?recruiter=270799341&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=G%3ESearch%3ESAP%3EUS%3EBrand%3EGeneral%3EExact&recruited_by_id=86b23ed0-dae2-11e4-9805-49c312064746&utm_content=fht-23389549-en-us%3A0

Has 286 signatures so far.  Honestly, I expect far more, but I'll add my John Hancock.

While it's a long shot for it to change the WOtC ship from inevitably steering into the iceberg, I think they should be made aware that their actions do have consequences from those who actually buy items from their product line (perhaps not anymore?).

While showing opposition on this forum of this event is cathartic (it is for me), it might be better to show our discontent in a collective sense:  Company doesn't alter course, they don't get any money or support.  Get enough people signing, they might actually take notice.

Even if you're not playing D&D, the whole thing sets a bad precedent for the hobby.  Most of the younger players shouting their support for disclaimers don't remember the 'Satanic Panic' and how ironic this whole turn of events is as history repeats itself.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139093Yes. "News" and SOCIAL Media (you know, stuff that deals with the real world) demonstrably has an influence on people. ENTERTAINMENT Media (esp. FICTION), on the other hand, has been scapegoated for every social ill people can't be bothered to take responsibility for, for centuries since the time of Shakespeare. And in all that time the conclusive evidence that it actually has any long term psychological effects or influence over people's believes has been basically zero.

Because it isn't REAL.



I agree. With proper training, humans may develop a limited capacity for empathy, love, and compassion.

In real life.

And people who don't get that training (or are trained to the contrary) tend to grow up to be fucked up human beings. I am confident that if more intelligent species evolved in this planet this would be more true for some species than others, but likely true of all of them to some extent. If orcs were real they would probably need more training than humans do. Halflings? Maybe less.

And right now we are being trained for the opposite of empathy, love, and compassion.

By the people presuming themselves to be the guardians of empathy, love, and compassion (and "equality").

Orcs are not real. They are not written by speculative biologists as a thought experiment. They are a fictional construct created for the purpose of being killed for xp and loot in a multiplayer tabletop game. The way they are typically described takes obvious cues from colonialist propaganda. Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

I think we should be able to calmly discuss and incorporate constructive criticism into our fiction intended for broad audiences. Failing to do so will only worsen the flame wars.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Orcs are not real. They are not written by speculative biologists as a thought experiment. They are a fictional construct created for the purpose of being killed for xp and loot in a multiplayer tabletop game. The way they are typically described takes obvious cues from colonialist propaganda. Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

I think we should be able to calmly discuss and incorporate constructive criticism into our fiction intended for broad audiences. Failing to do so will only worsen the flame wars.

   Every person alive today has had a distant relative who has suffered at some form of colonialism or being conquered.  So this is just again, bullshit.   Especially since the people who suffered from "modern...white" colonialism are your only concern, it is worth noting anyone who suffered from more modern colonialism, age of sail forward, had conquered, killed, enslaved, genocided, or colonized the area they were in before they fell to a stronger entity.  This is just bullshit.  The cycle of all human history is someone getting their asses kicked after kicking someone's ass.

Quote from: oggsmash;1139105Every person alive today has had a distant relative who has suffered at some form of colonialism or being conquered.  So this is just again, bullshit.   Especially since the people who suffered from "modern...white" colonialism are your only concern, it is worth noting anyone who suffered from more modern colonialism, age of sail forward, had conquered, killed, enslaved, genocided, or colonized the area they were in before they fell to a stronger entity.  This is just bullshit.  The cycle of all human history is someone getting their asses kicked after kicking someone's ass.

If you're upset about how vikings and visigoths are depicted as caricatures in media, then you should start petitions for them to be depicted respectfully in media.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139109If you're upset about how vikings and visigoths are depicted as caricatures in media, then you should start petitions for them to be depicted respectfully in media.

Or grow a pair and move on. This reminds me of the Muslim thing: 'Don't worry we can't depict your prophets as drawings either'.

That's not the point. Because you feel uncomfortable (immensely subjective and not possible to enforce with any measure of justice or equality) it has to be changed for you, and you demand everybody else play by your rules.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Orcs are not real. They are not written by speculative biologists as a thought experiment. They are a fictional construct created for the purpose of being killed for xp and loot in a multiplayer tabletop game. The way they are typically described takes obvious cues from colonialist propaganda. Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

I think we should be able to calmly discuss and incorporate constructive criticism into our fiction intended for broad audiences. Failing to do so will only worsen the flame wars.

Obvious cues from colonialist propaganda?  I disagree.  There are only so many ways you can label the 'other'; you buying into the narrative means you're also on some level seeing them as some sort of primitive, abused human group.

What's actually happening, is they're trying to re-define what an orc is.  It's not even about race (species if you'd rather), it's about culture.  Any culture can produce something of value, but not all cultures are worth defending.  

The Aztecs had amazing art, complex language and mythology, and were conquering assholes that dominated their neighbors and engaged in blood sacrifices.  Those headhunters sure were neat folk, clever how they figured out how to shrink a head down.

I wouldn't want either group as my neighbor.

Orcs are anthrophagic rapists that have no art, science, and worship a bunch of bloodthirsty gawds and gawdesses that encourage them the do the same.  Nature or nurture?  Well, when BOTH are pushing you to be a 'might makes right' survival of the fittest sociopath, it's hard to tell.

I'm not even opposed to exceptional individuals, loving marriages between the species etc. etc.; all the way back when Roger Moore (not the shitty James Bond) wrote the Gods of the Orcs, there was a small tribe Lawful Neutral tribe that worshiped a peaceful gawdess... to squeeze in a Miss Piggy joke, but what the hey...

Yes - we can (and have to, barring other examples) equate orcs to our own history and cultures; and we can have conversations about it, but the revisionists aren't listening and are shouting their -ists and -isms.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Orcs are not real. They are not written by speculative biologists as a thought experiment.

That does not preclude speculating about their nature, or observing that some species in real life are more driven to aggression or more capable of empathy than others, and concluding that therefore the same might be true of more intelligent and advanced species (particularly since some of the more intelligent non-human species can also be some of the most aggressive, meaning that intelligence does not preclude aggression).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104They are a fictional construct created for the purpose of being killed for xp and loot in a multiplayer tabletop game.

No, they were a fictional race created to represent the corruption of the human spirit (or elves, which are basically exalted humans) and basically becoming part of the "war machine" (a topic very relevant to the era on which Tolkien lived), which were later extrapolated into tabletop fantasy games where they basically represented the same thing AND you could kill them for XP and loot.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104The way they are typically described takes obvious cues from colonialist propaganda.

Your personal interpretation of media is not self-evident fact.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

I think we should be able to calmly discuss and incorporate constructive criticism into our fiction intended for broad audiences. Failing to do so will only worsen the flame wars.

It's impossible to have calm constructive discussions that begin with the premise of accepting some people's histrionic subjective opinions and interpretation of media as settled fact, and that certain works of fiction where bigoted because they said so, with the added implication that you are probably also a bigot (or at least too privileged to know the difference) if enjoyed those creative works or find no fault with them.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1139118The Aztecs had amazing art, complex language and mythology, and were conquering assholes that dominated their neighbors and engaged in blood sacrifices.

That description, however, fits a ton of cultures. Including those Western civilization regards as its revered forefathers. Not really an argument, much less so in a fantasy RPG.

QuoteOrcs are anthrophagic rapists that have no art, science, and worship a bunch of bloodthirsty gawds and gawdesses that encourage them the do the same.  Nature or nurture?  Well, when BOTH are pushing you to be a 'might makes right' survival of the fittest sociopath, it's hard to tell.

The problem you can see here is twofold:
a.) Explicitly conflating "race" or species if you will with culture.
b.) Intentionally writing a culture so that it has no redeeming features and you can feel good about killing its members. I don't really want or need such a thing. There is no and I would argue there cannot be any real human culture (for whatever 'a culture' is anyway) or society that would make me feel alright about slaughtering anyone born into it, including children. And if you write a fictional culture with the intention of making it so, I would ask you: Why?

Orcs in Tolkien were basically robots created to do evil. Or clones, if you will. There is no indication whatsoever that they had a society, families or that they were in the terms discussed here a "race". They are simple, if intelligent tools created by an evil wizard.

And that's fine by me. But if you depart from that in fantasy RPGs and make them a "race" or a culture, that concept no longer works. Because then you inevitably get questions like "Are they all like that? Why? Are there any ones among them who want to change that? Are they born like that? If you raised their children different, would they not be like that? If you overpowered them and taught them better ways, could they see the benefit?" and so on. And if your answer is that you don't care and you just want enemies to murder without any second thoughts, then I'd ask why they need to be a 'race' or a 'culture' instead of the original concept outlined above?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139123It's impossible to have calm constructive discussions that begin with the premise of accepting some people's histrionic subjective opinions and interpretation of media as settled fact, and that certain works of fiction where bigoted because they said so, with the added implication that you are probably also a bigot (or at least too privileged to know the difference) if enjoyed those creative works or find no fault with them.

Fucking THIS^. It's the intellectual equivalence of 'Racist says what?'. The arrogance and hubris of it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139162Fucking THIS^. It's the intellectual equivalence of 'Racist says what?'. The arrogance and hubris of it.

Yep.  Then it pours on a fine gravy of idiocy that permeates the whole thing, the kind of idiocy only a person carefully educated to be an idiot can believe.  (Note "believe".  "Think" would give the route to the notion too much credit.)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139083I never said it was foolproof.

I don't think saying "anybody who notices parallels between the way fictional races are described and real world racist caricatures are the real racists!" is any kind of improvement.

I definitely think there's room for reasonable debate.

I also think there's a distinct possibility that somebody could write a deliberate racist tract and conceal their intentions by replacing all mentions of real world people with fantasy races. Does that make their work suddenly not racist?

I'm not saying that we should barred from playing violent murder simulators. I love playing my copy of Postal 2. Sometimes it's cathartic to slaughter droves of innocent people with a machete.

If they replaced every instance of "Race" with "Species" in every RPG, would that shut you the fuck up with your idiotic delusions about how calling Orcs "savage" is like calling black people "savage"?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

Those "some players" can fuck off out of the hobby if orcs are just too much for them to handle.

The hobby loses nothing by their departure. If these losers freak out like retards being disturbed and repulsed about orcs, they're bound to freak about something else down the road. Who needs such garbage?

Everybody gains by showing them the door now, especially them because now they're safe from the scary orcs.

Greetings!

Anyone that is stupid enough to believe that Orcs or other fictional game humanoids are analogous to any "oppressed" or "colonized" culture in our own real world, thus signifying some inherent racism or "white supremacy" is just entirely too stupid and brainwashed by the Marxist BLM narrative. I'm sorry, but you have drank deep from the fucking Kool Aid, and your mind is already on the fast-track down to being a bowl of rainbow jello. There isn't any kind of "reasonable debate" to be had. If someone actually believes that such a position has any worthwhile merit what so ever, you have already lost. Embracing such Marxist narratives merely gives fuel to the fires of more stupidity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139104Some players who are part of groups historically victimized by colonialism find those descriptions disturbing and repulsive.

Greetings!

Hold the fucking phone! You have got to be fucking kidding me? Whoever these "players" are that find such descriptions "disturbing and repulsive" are obviously emotionally fragile nutjobs who have no business what so ever being at a game table playing D&D with fellow adult gamers. Why would you want someone that is that politically brainwashed to view politics and racist grievance studies bullshit into everything at your game table?

Talk about a fucking train wreck. Someone like that would never make it to my game table. One, I don't have friends that are brainwashed, Marxist activists; two, if they weren't my friends but someone casually met, they wouldn't survive the introductions and interviewing process. Third, if they did manage to get passed my better judgment and be allowed to join, as soon as they started sobbing at me with that Marxist bullshit they would be kicked to the curb in a second!

So, no, no one in the hobby needs to put up with these sobbing, manipulative, Marxist goons. Kick them all to the curb!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: kythri;1139091I haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet, so forgive me if this is already addressed, but:

Has anyone actually seen an edited PDF with this disclaimer, as of yet?

I ask, as my copy of Oriental Adventures from DTRPG, was last updated on 2014/02/03.  There's the new disclaimer on the product page itself, but it doesn't appear that they're actually editing the PDFs themselves (yet).

So far seems just on the product page. I see one right now on the BX D&D set. Which is just fucking disgusting to see.