I do agree no one should ever be held liable for the sins of the father,  I also agree I read nothing about Genocide.  I think all out war has happened A LOT in Human history, and I do not remember every single entity waging it was fascist.  I will bring this to my earlier point, if you really think people are really inspired to act based on imaginary actions and imaginary characters, we are headed to Jack Chick territory, and that is exactly what you are conflating regarding orcs and imaginary space Muslims.

Quote from: Omega;1138966You'd like to think that. But the OSR had been showing SJW infiltration over the years. This on top of some if its own problems of elitism and game theft under the aegis of the OSR. Theres a reason its occasionally called LOSR.ahem.

The promotion of the OSR as an ironclad alternative to SJW infested RPGs also misses the point that, aside from the OSR already having SJWs in it (AFAIK), not everyone wants to play old D&D clones or games derived from Basic. I didn't like Basic even in the old days and used to get into arguments with Basic-philes all the time.

QuoteOriginally Posted by WOTC

Simply put, we messed up and we're sorry. Wizards of the Coast is constantly working to be better, and we have a lot of work to do, especially so in repairing trust with our community. Thank you for continuing to use your voice so that we may continue to make meaningful change."

How I can I trust white racist bigots to fix the damage such a disgusting work produces in the RPG community.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138946What I mean is: Why does it become okay to actively endorse genocide when it's against fictional people like orcs or whatever? Should our fiction actively endorse genocide by contriving situations like that? It certainly reads like colonialist or fascist apologia.

Are Orcs just Humans wearing rubber Orc masks?

If they are then you can treat them like Humans.

To be fair most players treat the different races as Humans wearing a rubber mask.

So I guess a campaign to sail to a new land where savage cannibal orcs who torture and enslave the conquered to establish a colony is off the table?  Because I dont want people to be doing their fun wrong.  I want them to win bigly, and that badwrongfun is no good.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138974I also agree I read nothing about Genocide.

I was looking for a quick example and I got Kratman's novels confused. I didn't give myself the time to read through them all, as otherwise it would have taken me a few weeks to reply.

Caliphate definitely depicts genocide, but I haven't read ADCP enough to confirm that it also has it. But I would consider what happens in the prologue to be a form of genocide, as it involves selective murder and cultural destruction.

Also, Kratman has a reputation for writing deliberately provocative content.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138974I think all out war has happened A LOT in Human history, and I do not remember every single entity waging it was fascist.  I will bring this to my earlier point, if you really think people are really inspired to act based on imaginary actions and imaginary characters, we are headed to Jack Chick territory, and that is exactly what you are conflating regarding orcs and imaginary space Muslims.

I don't think that people are inspired to act on what they read in fiction. I think people are being increasingly indoctrinated to be mindless consumers with no interest in analyzing the content they consume, especially anything which could remotely considered "political".

This applies to all sides of the political spectrum. For example:

• She-Ra and the Princesses of Power endorses an abusive co-dependent relationship and nobody has a problem with it because the relationship is between two lesbians.
  
• Terra Formars depicts Martian cockroaches in painfully obvious blackface and fans in the Anglosphere say that it isn't blackface.
  

Quote from: Shasarak;1138981Are Orcs just Humans wearing rubber Orc masks?

If they are then you can treat them like Humans.

To be fair most players treat the different races as Humans wearing a rubber mask.

To be fair, I cannot name any campaign setting in which we are expected to lead genocidal crusades against the humanoids. I can't remember any stories of games where a party did that.

The only time I've ever heard of that coming up is when (to paraphrase a poorly remembered example) the party paladin objects to preemptively attacking some orcish raiders because he mistakenly thinks the other party members are endorsing genocide.

The orc genocide dilemma seems to be more of a running joke than anything else.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138989So I guess a campaign to sail to a new land where savage cannibal orcs who torture and enslave the conquered to establish a colony is off the table?  Because I dont want people to be doing their fun wrong.  I want them to win bigly, and that badwrongfun is no good.

Too late. That's the plot of WarCraft 1 and 2.

WC1 and 2, Those were before the new woke age, where we can apply critical theory to all things, and disern what people should or should not take in as entertainment. Luckily it seems we have some good citizens who are willing to step right up and help us out with that.  So indoctrination is a problem these days in entertainment?  But it does not influence people's behavior?  Confused.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138997WC1 and 2, Those were before the new woke age, where we can apply critical theory to all things, and disern what people should or should not take in as entertainment.

There were tons of discussions in the Scrolls of Lore community about ignoring the retcons from WC3 and speculating on orcish culture beyond caricature.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138997So indoctrination is a problem these days in entertainment?  But it does not influence people's behavior?  Confused.

People ignore problematic (or just plain incompetent) content in their consumed media when it fits their political screed. This tendency has been exacerbated by modern political polarization and it makes nuanced debate impossible.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139000There were tons of discussions in the Scrolls of Lore community about ignoring the retcons from WC3 and speculating on orcish culture beyond caricature.


People ignore problematic (or just plain incompetent) content in their consumed media when it fits their political screed. This tendency has been exacerbated by modern political polarization and it makes nuanced debate impossible.

  So people's behavior is affected by entertainment they consume, or it is not?

Quote from: oggsmash;1139001So people's behavior is affected by entertainment they consume, or it is not?

I never said it was. I'm not remotely qualified to even begin to answer that question.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1139002I never said it was. I'm not remotely qualified to even begin to answer that question.

 Well, what is indoctrinating them?  You said they ignore problematic behavior in imaginary entertainment.   You seem quite qualified to point out problematic behavior in entertainment, to what end I am not certain of, so what is indoctrinating them then?

People don't seem to be arguing that entertainment affects behaviour so much any more.  I use to see that more but these days the argument (to the extent there is one - ie. very little) seems to be that people will feel unsafe or unwelcome by racist depictions in rpgs.  Leaving aside how ridiculously broad the definition on "unsafe" has become, it is not prima facie ridiculous that a clearly racist element may make someone feel unwelcome.

The problem is that you can't meaningfully discuss this without some concept of the reasonable person - ie. would a reasonable person see this element as being racist.  Even if we acknowledge that the reasonable person may need to be in some cases a person from a particular minority that criteria still needs to apply.  After all two people from the same minority may disagree about whether something is racist.  The sensible and fair thing to do would be to listen to both and to make a judgement about who is the more reasonable.   This is of course potentially very flawed but is really the best we can do.  The current thinking seems to be that something is racist if any person from a minority claims it to be.  (In some cases not even that - sometimes it seems something is racist if any argument or interpretation can be put forward at all that suggest racism - this is about like the ontoligical argument for god - I can imagine god therefore he exists; I can make an narrative about why this is racist - therefore it is).

Which is a shame, because if there is genuine racism, it gets lost in all the nonsense and exaggeration.

Quote from: TJS;1139005People don't seem to be arguing that entertainment affects behaviour so much any more.  I use to see that more but these days the argument (to the extent there is one - ie. very little) seems to be that people will feel unsafe or unwelcome by racist depictions in rpgs.  Leaving aside how ridiculously broad the definition on "unsafe" has become, it is not prima facie ridiculous that a clearly racist element may make someone feel unwelcome.

The problem is that you can't meaningfully discuss this without some concept of the reasonable person - ie. would a reasonable person see this element as being racist.  Even if we acknowledge that the reasonable person may need to be in some cases a person from a particular minority that criteria still needs to apply.  After all two people from the same minority may disagree about whether something is racist.  The sensible and fair thing to do would be to listen to both and to make a judgement about who is the more reasonable.   This is of course potentially very flawed but is really the best we can do.  The current thinking seems to be that something is racist if any person from a minority claims it to be.  (In some cases not even that - sometimes it seems something is racist if any argument or interpretation can be put forward at all that suggest racism - this is about like the ontoligical argument for god - I can imagine god therefore he exists; I can make an narrative about why this is racist - therefore it is).

Which is a shame, because if there is genuine racism, it gets lost in all the nonsense and exaggeration.

  I remember a HUGE stink about pearl clutching fears that the Joker movie was going to lead to mass shootings by incels taking inspiration from the movie.  So I am not so sure you are right about this.  I think people *might* view some things as propaganda to normalize some problematic behaviors.  The reactions around RPGs seems reminiscent of bible beaters thinking their kids are going to try to summon demons.

  I agree with what you are saying, and it seems to be an application of critical theory to constantly deconstruct all the things...so they can be re made in a non problematic image I guess, so people can stop being abused by the problematic stuff they see in their political entertainment (like killing orcs.....) I guess.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138996To be fair, I cannot name any campaign setting in which we are expected to lead genocidal crusades against the humanoids. I can't remember any stories of games where a party did that.

The only time I've ever heard of that coming up is when (to paraphrase a poorly remembered example) the party paladin objects to preemptively attacking some orcish raiders because he mistakenly thinks the other party members are endorsing genocide.

The orc genocide dilemma seems to be more of a running joke than anything else.

There are a couple of TSR settings but you are probably too young to remember them.

Quote from: oggsmash;1139003Well, what is indoctrinating them?  You said they ignore problematic behavior in imaginary entertainment.   You seem quite qualified to point out problematic behavior in entertainment, to what end I am not certain of, so what is indoctrinating them then?

Schools, of course.

I have no idea how else people can think that the concepts of male and female are unrelated to gametes. Yes, that is an actual thing people believe now.

I don't know how media influences people, but considering all the stupidity on all sides of the political spectrum... I have a suspicion it does something.

Quote from: TJS;1139005People don't seem to be arguing that entertainment affects behaviour so much any more.  I use to see that more but these days the argument (to the extent there is one - ie. very little) seems to be that people will feel unsafe or unwelcome by racist depictions in rpgs.  Leaving aside how ridiculously broad the definition on "unsafe" has become, it is not prima facie ridiculous that a clearly racist element may make someone feel unwelcome.

The problem is that you can't meaningfully discuss this without some concept of the reasonable person - ie. would a reasonable person see this element as being racist.  Even if we acknowledge that the reasonable person may need to be in some cases a person from a particular minority that criteria still needs to apply.  After all two people from the same minority may disagree about whether something is racist.  The sensible and fair thing to do would be to listen to both and to make a judgement about who is the more reasonable.   This is of course potentially very flawed but is really the best we can do.  The current thinking seems to be that something is racist if any person from a minority claims it to be.  (In some cases not even that - sometimes it seems something is racist if any argument or interpretation can be put forward at all that suggest racism - this is about like the ontoligical argument for god - I can imagine god therefore he exists; I can make an narrative about why this is racist - therefore it is).

Which is a shame, because if there is genuine racism, it gets lost in all the nonsense and exaggeration.

It is a shame. Racism should be pretty easy to spot, since anybody can be subject to it.

I think I know an easy way to determine whether something is racist: pretend it's a human being.

For example: "with proper training, humans may develop a limited capacity for empathy, love, and compassion."

That's either racist or insanely cynical.

Quote from: Shasarak;1139011There are a couple of TSR settings but you are probably too young to remember them.

Well that's certainly disturbing.