Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138942You misunderstood me. The book starts with the "hero" allowing children to be sold into slavery, and gets worse from there. The book expects the reader to believe he is heroic for doing this and the other atrocities he commits, which include genocide. This is pretty normal for Kratman's works. They're fascist apologia.



What I mean is: Why does it become okay to actively endorse genocide when it's against fictional people like orcs or whatever? Should our fiction actively endorse genocide by contriving situations like that? It certainly reads like colonialist or fascist apologia.

  I did not get any sort of heroic tone from that.  Seemed more to me a means to communicate nihilism is pretty fucking horrible, and men who were good before might not stay that way in a war.    He also "allowed" the defeated to be judged by the Sharia.  Now if you are saying Sharia law is really barbaric, I think that is another charge.  I feel I got a completely different tone and message from how those characters interacted than you did.  But also, again, no genocide.  You do realize that when groups of people go to war, a lot of horrible shit happens right?

I can also say, if I found the guy who murdered my wife and kid, and the people who helped him do it, slavery is not in their future.  Neither is a quick death.

Late to the party as usual... however, I've been concerned about all of this ever since RPG Pundit made me aware of the problem's depth years ago.  Anyway, I have a petition to get WotC to remove their legacy content disclaimer.  Feel free to sign (by commenting on my blog post) the petition if you're also disgusted by what's going on: http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/07/wotc-disclaimer-sign-petition.html

Thanks,

VS

Quote from: oggsmash;1138947I did not get any sort of heroic tone from that.  Seemed more to me a means to communicate nihilism is pretty fucking horrible, and men who were good before might not stay that way in a war.    He also "allowed" the defeated to be judged by the Sharia.  Now if you are saying Sharia law is really barbaric, I think that is another charge.  I feel I got a completely different tone and message from how those characters interacted than you did.  But also, again, no genocide.  You do realize that when groups of people go to war, a lot of horrible shit happens right?

Why da hell does that context even matter when these nihilistic books about fucked up situations are obviously endorsing these things by virtue of their psychologically damaged protagonist (with nothing left to live for now that his family is dead) taking any role in these atrocities?

Quote from: VengerSatanis;1138952Late to the party as usual... however, I've been concerned about all of this ever since RPG Pundit made me aware of the problem's depth years ago.  Anyway, I have a petition to get WotC to remove their legacy content disclaimer.  Feel free to sign (by commenting on my blog post) the petition if you're also disgusted by what's going on: http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/07/wotc-disclaimer-sign-petition.html

Thanks,

VS

Dunno if WOTC will listen, but signed.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138957Why da hell does that context even matter when these nihilistic books about fucked up situations are obviously endorsing these things by virtue of their psychologically damaged protagonist (with nothing left to live for now that his family is dead) taking any role in these atrocities?

My point is, I dont read it, but I also dont read porn.  Both seem to have an audience.  The point is the dude said genocide, linked a passage, and no genocide.  I do not read YA fantasy either, but people do.  I do not care how dark something someone writes.  Or irresponsible their characters are.  If you take inspiration for real life action from imaginary characters, we are about to launch into Jack Chick land.  Been there did that in the 80's, dont care to do it again.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138959My point is, I dont read it, but I also dont read porn.  Both seem to have an audience.  The point is the dude said genocide, linked a passage, and no genocide.  I do not read YA fantasy either, but people do.  I do not care how dark something someone writes.  Or irresponsible their characters are.  If you take inspiration for real life action from imaginary characters, we are about to launch into Jack Chick land.  Been there did that in the 80's, dont care to do it again.

Yeah, I was just being sarcastic. This whole thing is silly and desperately looking for imaginary signs of bigotry and "endorsements" of atrocities (by virtue of being written in a work of FICTION exploring such dark circumstances) that apparently don't even exist to be offended about.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138947I did not get any sort of heroic tone from that.  Seemed more to me a means to communicate nihilism is pretty fucking horrible, and men who were good before might not stay that way in a war.    He also "allowed" the defeated to be judged by the Sharia.  Now if you are saying Sharia law is really barbaric, I think that is another charge.  I feel I got a completely different tone and message from how those characters interacted than you did.  But also, again, no genocide.  You do realize that when groups of people go to war, a lot of horrible shit happens right?

I didn't say that genocide happened in the first chapter (although erasing the culture of the slaves without killing them is within one of the possible definitions of genocide). I was using Kratman's works as examples of fiction that endorse genocide in fictional contexts, which is popularly known as "hard men making hard decisions." While you and I don't perceive the protagonist as a hero, Kratman's fans do. He's a controversial author.

Anyway, my overall point is that contriving a setting to actively endorse genocide is just that and resembles fascist apologia. This is different from depicting genocide and acknowledging it as bad, or writing a satire of fascism.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138949I can also say, if I found the guy who murdered my wife and kid, and the people who helped him do it, slavery is not in their future.  Neither is a quick death.

The Blue Djinn sold teenage girls into sexual slavery. I can understand if you forgot that part and I'm quite sure that you're not seriously suggesting that you would torture children to death.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138961Yeah, I was just being sarcastic. This whole thing is silly and desperately looking for imaginary signs of bigotry and "endorsements" of atrocities (by virtue of being written in a work of FICTION exploring such dark circumstances) that apparently don't even exist to be offended about.

Kratman is a controversial author because he's not trying to be nihilistic. His books are a reflection of his extreme political views. The guy does not like Muslims.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1138814So the upshot of all this baby whinging is that now there's going to be a disclaimer on some of their retro 'edgy' products. Fine... I'd rather that then the product taken down or 'edited'.

Disclaimers are the first step. Then it will upgrade to editing. Which has allready happened. Or cut out the middle man and to straight to removal from shelves and possibly banning from conventions.
We've seen this over and over in other media. Because its never enough.

I have doubts seeing a scenario where children would help kill my wife and kids, but a super smart person like you knows this, so straw man away.  

   The Blue Jinn did what the MULLAH DECREED.  SHARIA LAW DETERMINED THE FATE OF THE FALLEN.  I think that is a point the muslim hating author is also making.  But I guess you forgot that part.  Do you eat crayons?

Quote from: The Exploited.;1138859I hope so too... The OSR is pretty untouchable for gaming at the moment. And it does'nt seem to be concerned with the few crybabies.

You'd like to think that. But the OSR had been showing SJW infiltration over the years. This on top of some if its own problems of elitism and game theft under the aegis of the OSR. Theres a reason its occasionally called LOSR.ahem.

So this Tom Kratman guy...

What D&D books did he write?

Quote from: VengerSatanis;1138952Late to the party as usual... however, I've been concerned about all of this ever since RPG Pundit made me aware of the problem's depth years ago.  Anyway, I have a petition to get WotC to remove their legacy content disclaimer.  Feel free to sign (by commenting on my blog post) the petition if you're also disgusted by what's going on: http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/07/wotc-disclaimer-sign-petition.html

Thanks,

VS

You'd need to send it to Hasbro. WOTC will just idnore it or use it as PR fuel for the outrage fire. "Look at how racist and horrible these people are. They hate minorities so much they petitioned against our warning you about all the "problematic" stuff in those nasty old games. This is proof we are in the right!"

Quote from: oggsmash;1138965I have doubts seeing a scenario where children would help kill my wife and kids, but a super smart person like you knows this, so straw man away.  

You didn't specify the context in which your family was killed, so I assumed it was one of those mass killings like in the book. Either way, the children were innocent and just happened to be born into the wrong families.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138965The Blue Jinn did what the MULLAH DECREED.  SHARIA LAW DETERMINED THE FATE OF THE FALLEN.  I think that is a point the muslim hating author is also making.  But I guess you forgot that part.  Do you eat crayons?

That doesn't absolve the Blue Jinn of any wrong doing.

Quote from: TJS;1138968So this Tom Kratman guy...

What D&D books did he write?

He didn't. It's just a tangent that I got tangled up in.