Quote from: Shasarak;1138711Is there no difference between Orcs and Muslims in your mind?

To Box apparently fictional people and fictional actions = the real thing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138714I remember when "they're going to take away our gaming books!" was a ridiculous leap of logic. Yet here we are.

Well, at least you won't have to worry about the Game Police kicking down your door and sentencing you for Doing It Wrong.

/bookmarked for later reference

So the upshot of all this baby whinging is that now there's going to be a disclaimer on some of their retro 'edgy' products. Fine... I'd rather that then the product taken down or 'edited'.

I hope these SJWs enjoy their pyrrhic victory, because it's not as if WotTC give a shit. I mean, if they had a conscious and were genuine about this stuff they'd have done it years ago. It's simple cooperate knee bending... $$$$$

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138705A Desert Called Peace is a good starting point. In the prologue, the "hero" sells teenage girls into sexual slavery.

Why don't you reference the context, crayon boy?

For those of you who aren't eating crayons, Kratman's protagonist does in fact sell the wives and daughters of a very specific enemy into slavery. In fact, they are the female contingent of the al-Qaeda expy group that killed his family with a 9/11-esque attack. Kratman's protagonist (Carrera) swears a very specific, very direct revenge, and goes on the warpath.

Note that he does reach an accord with other Muslims (I believe they're supposed to be Pashtun Afghani expies), which is how he disposes of the women. The al-Qaeda menfolk are crucified.

Is it extreme? Yes. But one might note it's kinder than what happens in another Kratman novel, Caliphate, which sees Islam being systematically wiped out after nuclear attacks against the U.S. and Britain.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138821Why don't you reference the context, crayon boy?

For those of you who aren't eating crayons, Kratman's protagonist does in fact sell the wives and daughters of a very specific enemy into slavery. In fact, they are the female contingent of the al-Qaeda expy group that killed his family with a 9/11-esque attack. Kratman's protagonist (Carrera) swears a very specific, very direct revenge, and goes on the warpath.

Note that he does reach an accord with other Muslims (I believe they're supposed to be Pashtun Afghani expies), which is how he disposes of the women. The al-Qaeda menfolk are crucified.

Is it extreme? Yes. But one might note it's kinder than what happens in another Kratman novel, Caliphate, which sees Islam being systematically wiped out after nuclear attacks against the U.S. and Britain.

  He doesnt really do it though.  The Mullah pronounced sentence under Sharia law.   He had them decide the fate of the conquered.  So it was more like Muslims sold apostates into slavery and pronounced death sentence.   Which really makes it a hard sell to call that genocide IMO.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1138814So the upshot of all this baby whinging is that now there's going to be a disclaimer on some of their retro 'edgy' products. Fine... I'd rather that then the product taken down or 'edited'.

I hope these SJWs enjoy their pyrrhic victory, because it's not as if WotTC give a shit. I mean, if they had a conscious and were genuine about this stuff they'd have done it years ago. It's simple cooperate knee bending... $$$$$

That's an upside. We can be the "bad boys" of RPGs, buying all the stuff with warning stickers and smoking behind the shop building.

Quote from: WOTCA disclaimer has been added to several legacy titles on our partner distribution sites. We'd like to talk about why we've added that disclaimer, what it means, and other steps that are being taken to address a legacy of ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice in some old products.

This is an early step and not done in a vacuum. It's not enough to evaluate ourselves. As outlined in our original diversity statement (http://spr.ly/6184GTbpj), we're undergoing the process of reviewing our content and practices and hiring external consultants to review with us.

These processes take time to implement, and we'll continue to provide future updates. Unfortunately, our disclaimer was added before we were ready to fully communicate the steps we are taking. We apologize for failing to handle this situation with the care and grace it deserves.

Lastly, we want to make it clear that we condemn the harassment or bullying of those raising their concerns about our content, past or present. D&D wants to be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space. Those who do not reflect those values are not welcome in our community.

Simply put, we messed up and we're sorry. Wizards of the Coast is constantly working to be better, and we have a lot of work to do, especially so in repairing trust with our community. Thank you for continuing to use your voice so that we may continue to make meaningful change."

This is only the beginning.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138831That's an upside. We can be the "bad boys" of RPGs, buying all the stuff with warning stickers and smoking behind the shop building.

Hah... Makes me feel twenty years younger - Parental Advisory Explicit Content! A badge of honor to be worn with pride.

Quote from: JeffB;1138835This is only the beginning.

Watch this space and vote with your wallet.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1138849Hah... Makes me feel twenty years younger - Parental Advisory Explicit Content! A badge of honor to be worn with pride.

Considering how fed up people are getting with all of this Politically Correct bullshit getting shoved in their faces, I'll bet we see a marked increase in OSR gaming - like when D&D was the focus of the Satanic Panic. It doesn't hurt that a lot of games currently out there just plain suck.

Quote from: jeff37923;1138856Considering how fed up people are getting with all of this Politically Correct bullshit getting shoved in their faces, I'll bet we see a marked increase in OSR gaming

I hope so too... The OSR is pretty untouchable for gaming at the moment. And it does'nt seem to be concerned with the few crybabies.

Generally, I ignore all the SJW muck, but as it's starting to encroach to other titles you can't help notice it more and more. Having said that I think we will also see another wave of push back with any luck.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138821Is it extreme? Yes. But one might note it's kinder than what happens in another Kratman novel, Caliphate, which sees Islam being systematically wiped out after nuclear attacks against the U.S. and Britain.

Okay, so to make this slightly more on-topic: I could see where the complainers re:OA and other earlier works are coming from if any of the old material contained that kind of shit. But it doesn't. A somewhat haphazard, patchily researched and occasionally eyebrow-raising work like OA - that without a doubt came from a place of genuine, positive interest in the cultures it drew from - is in a whole different league.

And it is precisely this idea - that basically everything that gets any cultural inspiration (beyond bog standard European-ish medieval-ish fantasy) "wrong" needs to be considered on the same level as genuine racist and/or jingoist drivel - that I find so toxic. Because a.) in the end that just means that the only "safe" thing to write about is aforementioned bog standard fantasy and b.) this is a perfect solution fallacy in action. I can name many people, including myself, who would never have developed a deeper interest in other cultures and languages blossoming into travel and international friendship if we had not been inspired in our childhood and youth by books that, while enthusiastic, were frequently badly researched and wildly misrepresentative. But that is how that works. Research, knowledge, understanding improve. To demand perfection from the beginning is idiotic, to do so retroactively doubly so - especially if, as I said, the only two categories are "perfect from the complainers' viewpoint" or "to be condemned".

Quote from: oggsmash;1138710I read the prologue, the hero does not sell anyone into slavery, he  turns the fates of the defeated over to the Mullahs, and they, in accordance with Sharia law.....place the women into sex slavery and take the kids away.  The hero seems simply to abide by Islam.  I suppose that could make him a villian....so is he a bad guy for allowing the Sharia law to decide their fates, or is Sharia law bad and he should stop these people from practicing their religion?  I am confused how it is genocide, since he seems to be working directly with Muslims in the prologue.  Very confusing this genocide.

You misunderstood me. The book starts with the "hero" allowing children to be sold into slavery, and gets worse from there. The book expects the reader to believe he is heroic for doing this and the other atrocities he commits, which include genocide. This is pretty normal for Kratman's works. They're fascist apologia.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138711Is there no difference between Orcs and Muslims in your mind?

Are Muslims a purely fictional race?

If we use my logic then there is a difference between using a purely fictional Orc and using an extremely real Muslim.

Do you have any other examples?

What I mean is: Why does it become okay to actively endorse genocide when it's against fictional people like orcs or whatever? Should our fiction actively endorse genocide by contriving situations like that? It certainly reads like colonialist or fascist apologia.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138821Why don't you reference the context, crayon boy?

For those of you who aren't eating crayons, Kratman's protagonist does in fact sell the wives and daughters of a very specific enemy into slavery. In fact, they are the female contingent of the al-Qaeda expy group that killed his family with a 9/11-esque attack. Kratman's protagonist (Carrera) swears a very specific, very direct revenge, and goes on the warpath.

Note that he does reach an accord with other Muslims (I believe they're supposed to be Pashtun Afghani expies), which is how he disposes of the women. The al-Qaeda menfolk are crucified.

Is it extreme? Yes. But one might note it's kinder than what happens in another Kratman novel, Caliphate, which sees Islam being systematically wiped out after nuclear attacks against the U.S. and Britain.

Why the hell should that context matter? Kratman's protagonists are psychotically insane either way.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138710I read the prologue, the hero does not sell anyone into slavery, he  turns the fates of the defeated over to the Mullahs, and they, in accordance with Sharia law.....place the women into sex slavery and take the kids away.  The hero seems simply to abide by Islam.  I suppose that could make him a villian....so is he a bad guy for allowing the Sharia law to decide their fates, or is Sharia law bad and he should stop these people from practicing their religion?  I am confused how it is genocide, since he seems to be working directly with Muslims in the prologue.  Very confusing this genocide.

You misunderstood me. The book starts with the "hero" allowing children to be sold into slavery, and gets worse from there. The book expects the reader to believe he is heroic for doing this and the other atrocities he commits, which include genocide. This is pretty normal for Kratman's works.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138711Is there no difference between Orcs and Muslims in your mind?

Are Muslims a purely fictional race?

If we use my logic then there is a difference between using a purely fictional Orc and using an extremely real Muslim.

Do you have any other examples?

What I mean is: Why does it become okay to actively endorse genocide when it's against fictional people like orcs or whatever? Should our fiction actively endorse genocide by contriving situations like that? It certainly reads like colonialist or fascist apologia.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138821Why don't you reference the context, crayon boy?

For those of you who aren't eating crayons, Kratman's protagonist does in fact sell the wives and daughters of a very specific enemy into slavery. In fact, they are the female contingent of the al-Qaeda expy group that killed his family with a 9/11-esque attack. Kratman's protagonist (Carrera) swears a very specific, very direct revenge, and goes on the warpath.

Note that he does reach an accord with other Muslims (I believe they're supposed to be Pashtun Afghani expies), which is how he disposes of the women. The al-Qaeda menfolk are crucified.

Is it extreme? Yes. But one might note it's kinder than what happens in another Kratman novel, Caliphate, which sees Islam being systematically wiped out after nuclear attacks against the U.S. and Britain.

Why the hell should that context matter? Kratman's protagonists are psychotically insane either way.