Quote from: Omega;1138607How long before they start editing the books to "fix" them?

Well, funny enough, all four core books of AD&D 1e are now finally available in Premium POD at the same time for the first time I can remember, so if you want to use those books at the table and keep your originals hermetically sealed, now's the time to buy them before they start doing just that.

The errata fixes were fine, but I don't want WOTC making any 'beneficial' changes to a dead man's legacy to the hobby.  Who knows, after some of the overeager editors might actually read these books in full for possibly the first time and realise that the writers were actually pretty open-minded and mindful.  Y'know, things like welcoming people at the game table, regardless of gender or race,  not dictating to their players the one 'true' way and the authors of these books encouraging players to do whatever they wanted with the material to make the gaming experience an enjoyable one for them.

Then, they may realise that all this recent manufactured gamer-gate, hyped outrage about D&D keeping certain people out of the hobby was bullsh*t.  Those who had it happen to them, blame the people you associated with, not the product that they used.  Stop trying to act like the written material was weaponized to keep you from the hobby.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1138612...the writers were actually pretty open-minded and mindful.  Y'know, things like welcoming people at the game table, regardless of gender or race,  not dictating to their players the one 'true' way and the authors of these books encouraging players to do whatever they wanted with the material to make the gaming experience an enjoyable one for them.

That's because that was actually the prevailing views of people from that era and pretty much the entire lifetimes of those of us who grew up with this hobby, or were at least alive when it started. And while yes, I don't doubt for an instant that racist people existed in the US at the time (and still do today), such views were not socially accepted at the time and haven't been for decades upon decades. But these people (even some in this forum) want to make believe otherwise and hallucinate that everything before the era of woke outrage was like Jim Crow, and it took our woke saviors to drag us into the light--that everything was racist AF and dripping with sexism until they showed us otherwise and declared everything that happened in the last few decades of the last millennium, and even to this day, deeply racist and problematic.

Which is why they won't realize anything. They don't care that these books aren't racist. They're here to prove that they are, not to passively assess them and accept them without judgement.

Heh, I'll probably get called out for using 'race' instead of 'ethnic group' in my impassioned post plea:  A term I'm sure the editors would be quick to point out is 'rampant' in the books and must be eradicated for the good of society, not realising that every substitution phrase to placate the masses is eventually deemed as demeaning and is yet again replaced by something else.  Down the slippery slope we go.
Mea culpa.

I can't imagine they'll edit old books.

It would be a sisyphean task.  What exactly do you edit out?  Editing old material would hardly inure you from future criticism it would encourage it (And it wouldn't make them any money).  If you can prove WOTC are acting on your youtube channels then of course you will keep finding more things to criticise to keep driving views.  That's the grift.  You can't turn around and draw a line in the sand about what is racist or not because doing that just drives criticism.

The way I see it they really only have two realistic choices.  They can put a disclaimer on old products like they have done, and hope that basically takes away a lot of the oxygen from the grifters, or they can remove all old products from sale.  I doiubt they'll do the latter because while any individual old product sold as PDF probably doesn't bring in much revenue I think cumulatively they probably bring in enough money to be felt in the bottom line.  (Plus there would be a big and public backlash).

I think the link I posted earlier about the tyranny of the minority is relevant here.  Companies like WOTC bow to pressure because it doesn't hurt them too much.  The amount of people who actually boycott them because they are "too SJW" is probably inconsequential.  Or at least they probably judge it to be compared to damage they think identity politics can do them.  That could change however.

Quote from: TJS;1138616I can't imagine they'll edit old books.

I was just going to write: "That would mean actual work, so no", but you have put it better.

Even if they were to put in that work, it would be absurdly pointless. There is a term for taking an old RPG product, looking at what didn't work in it and improving it: It's called writing a new edition. Retroactively re-writing the earlier edition and then excising the original non-rewritten version: That's insane.

Quote from: Omega;1138607How long before they start editing the books to "fix" them?

Oh I'm confident this is on the menu.

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1138643I was just going to write: "That would mean actual work, so no", but you have put it better.

Even if they were to put in that work, it would be absurdly pointless. There is a term for taking an old RPG product, looking at what didn't work in it and improving it: It's called writing a new edition. Retroactively re-writing the earlier edition and then excising the original non-rewritten version: That's insane.

Since when has sanity been a requirement for these kinds of actions?

Quote from: Wulfhelm;1138643I was just going to write: "That would mean actual work, so no", but you have put it better.

Even if they were to put in that work, it would be absurdly pointless. There is a term for taking an old RPG product, looking at what didn't work in it and improving it: It's called writing a new edition. Retroactively re-writing the earlier edition and then excising the original non-rewritten version: That's insane.

  They're planning it for the new printings of Curse of Strahd and Tomb of Annihilation, but those were products already slated for reprints. For products that will never see print again? Extremely unlikely.

Quote from: yabaziou;1137026Those podcast members are US citizens larping being Asians, since despite their genetic heritage coming from East Asia, they are first and foremost entitled western (like many western regardless of their skin color). I am pretty sure that actual chineses, koreans, vietnames have far more presting concerns that the collections of cliches in Oriental Adventures (orient is the Latin to say east and Asia is the Greek's way). Lest not forget that AD&D setting is full of cliches about medieval Europe which also to be wrong like those in OA. They are making a power move to gain (undue) influence over D&D and WotC. And of course, they are not D&D fans, ignoring that exceptional strength was already in the PHB 1e, Comeliness was from UA and Kim Mohan is not an Asian (I shit you not, go on YouTube to check their take on OA, where they are super boring and make those stupid mistakes that are called out in the comments. It is so bad that an US citizen with Japanese calls them out in a comment calling them racists, whom they probably are). And of course the elephant in the china store is the fact their forebears flew their countries to find peace and prosperity in the USA ...

You hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: Omega;1138607How long before they start editing the books to "fix" them?

Not gonna happen.  The next step is total removal.

I would imagine that, later, cons that either wholly or partially benefit from WotC's largess (Origins, Gen Con) will see AD&D on through third-and-a-half edition get put on a "You can't run those games here, this is a safe space" list.

Then smaller shops will enforce the same.

By 2028-2030 AD&D will be in the homes of the people who've enjoyed it, and that's it.

If they can lean on eBay hard enough they can get them to remove 1e/2e etc. sales since the books contain "hate speech".  eBay will pull auctions for the weirdest reasons, so it'd probably work.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1138682Not gonna happen.  The next step is total removal.

I would imagine that, later, cons that either wholly or partially benefit from WotC's largess (Origins, Gen Con) will see AD&D on through third-and-a-half edition get put on a "You can't run those games here, this is a safe space" list.

Then smaller shops will enforce the same.

By 2028-2030 AD&D will be in the homes of the people who've enjoyed it, and that's it.

If they can lean on eBay hard enough they can get them to remove 1e/2e etc. sales since the books contain "hate speech".  eBay will pull auctions for the weirdest reasons, so it'd probably work.

Sad that this is the way it looks that things are heading.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138495How can you read that sentence and come to that conclusion? They aren't keeping these book unedited because they think erasing history is wrong. They are keeping them unedited to preserve the evidence that old D&D is bad and anyone who worked on or likes old D&D is, therefore, also bad.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I acknowledge that monster entries sometimes parrot colonialist claptrap transposed to a fantasy context, but to say "old D&D is bad" is a ridiculous leap of logic.

Quote from: Omega;1138514Half the time Volo comes across as a liar and a jackass so that might have actually been intentional. Showing what a ass he is.

That would actually be clever. Do we think that WotC is competent enough to pull that off?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1138517You didn't search anything, since it took me seconds to find ONE asshole arguing exactly that, since your "argument" is destroyed by a single example to the contrary...

https://twitter.com/wfyoungblood/status/1279781258407686145

https://twitter.com/wfyoungblood/status/1279812730199908352

Archived just in case:

http://archive.is/rg4oI

http://archive.is/i4f6N

"PoC" is a generic term for all non-white people. In any case, those arguing that orcs uniquely resemble colonialist propaganda about African Americans would be still be wrong. Orcs draw much more generally from colonialist language and most closely resemble stereotypes of indigenous peoples and not transplanted slaves. There is a difference.

Quote from: tenbones;1138518Care to tell us what racist language is being used against these fictional characters and who it's really aimed at if not the fictional characters? Because fictional characters aren't real. And to what degree is anyone supposed to be invested in the internal thoughts of strangers that *might* infer incorrectly, yet presume they are in fact the target of the assumed fictional "hate speech"... seems... a bit much to ask for.

I have yet to see anyone ask me what I feel. I'm starting to think no one cares. LOL is that what you're intimating has to happen? We have to tantrum and riot to get people to pay attention to our feelings? Because that's where this is going (with much darker implications already unfolding).

You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions here. The original argument is that the way that orcs and other humanoids are described closely resembles the same language used by colonists to justify atrocities against indigenous peoples.

Here's a link to an essay from 2008: https://raceindnd.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/nerd-nite-presentation-november-18th-2008/

Quote from: Shasarak;1138531Is it because fictional characters are not real?

There is no Orc baby asking their Mum why everyone hates them.

Are you sure that's the line of logic you want to use? That logic would say there's nothing wrong with Tom Kratman's novels where his hero commits genocide against muslims.

Quote from: SHARK;1138536Greetings!

What is wrong with engaging in whatever rhetoric concerning FICTIONAL CHARACTERS? Fictional races and characters exist for the purposes of drama, of story, of game play. They are there to be killed, enslaved, conquered, or loved, embraced and befriended. It all varies. They are fictional characters and races. Why are people whining about fictional characters?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm not whining. I'm just curious.

Some people seem queasy with the idea of a story endorsing genocide and slavery, as opposed to depicting it while acknowledging the evilness.

I haven't actually seen any evidence that D&D endorses wholesale genocide of the humanoid races. Are there any adventures where you're supposed to kill all the orc/goblin/drow/whatever babies?

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138546Do you even know who Volothamp Geddarm is?

Jesus. Every one of his fucking guides comes with a huge disclaimer from no less than fucking Elminster of Shadowdale because Volo is such an unreliable source (except when it comes to Cormyr, because even the blind squirrel finds the nut now and then). Hell, Elminster once threatened to polymorph him into a toad and leave him that way for about a century.

But no, go cry some more about fictional characters acting badly.

That would actually be clever. Do we think that WotC is competent enough to pull that off?

I am interested in this book where a hero commits genocide against Muslims.....he kills them all?  Wipes them off the face of the earth?  That seems beyond extreme, Or are we calling a war genocide?  I guess technically they can be one and the same, but it seems like that dude's books are about an all out war are they not?

Quote from: oggsmash;1138695I am interested in this book where a hero commits genocide against Muslims.....he kills them all?  Wipes them off the face of the earth?  That seems beyond extreme, Or are we calling a war genocide?  I guess technically they can be one and the same, but it seems like that dude's books are about an all out war are they not?

You luckily missed the freak show over on BGG where they got a guys game cancelled from production because it was about exploring and colonizing Africa. Because that "promotes genocide". I wish I were joking.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138695I am interested in this book where a hero commits genocide against Muslims.....he kills them all?  Wipes them off the face of the earth?  That seems beyond extreme, Or are we calling a war genocide?  I guess technically they can be one and the same, but it seems like that dude's books are about an all out war are they not?

A Desert Called Peace is a good starting point. In the prologue, the "hero" sells teenage girls into sexual slavery.

Quote from: Omega;1138699You luckily missed the freak show over on BGG where they got a guys game cancelled from production because it was about exploring and colonizing Africa. Because that "promotes genocide". I wish I were joking.

You mean Scramble for Africa? The news articles I could find are very neutral-sounding.

I think it's hypocritical because a bunch of historical 4X games allow you to colonize Africa and commit virtual genocide but nobody is calling those out as "promoting genocide."

I specifically bought Stellaris so I could play a devouring swarm. Their shtick is that they literally eat all other species they encounter. My childhood love of entomology has matured into adoration for playing those sorts of things in video games.