Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138451Why is it okay to use racist rhetoric un-ironically against fictional characters?

Is it because fictional characters are not real?

There is no Orc baby asking their Mum why everyone hates them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138451Why is it okay to use racist rhetoric un-ironically against fictional characters?

I get needing targets to farm for XP and loot, but D&D tacks on a ton of unnecessary baggage.

Greetings!

What is wrong with engaging in whatever rhetoric concerning FICTIONAL CHARACTERS? Fictional races and characters exist for the purposes of drama, of story, of game play. They are there to be killed, enslaved, conquered, or loved, embraced and befriended. It all varies. They are fictional characters and races. Why are people whining about fictional characters?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138394The language used in Volo's Guide is identical to the rhetoric used to dehumanize the indigenous peoples victimized by colonialism (including native Americans, Australian aboriginals, and slavic peoples). Read it out loud. If that language was applied to any human group, then it would be obviously dehumanizing and racist.

Do you even know who Volothamp Geddarm is?

Jesus. Every one of his fucking guides comes with a huge disclaimer from no less than fucking Elminster of Shadowdale because Volo is such an unreliable source (except when it comes to Cormyr, because even the blind squirrel finds the nut now and then). Hell, Elminster once threatened to polymorph him into a toad and leave him that way for about a century.

But no, go cry some more about fictional characters acting badly.

Well they are now adding disclaimer to the older books to apologize for...who the hell knows these days.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1280973004604755968

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1138571Well they are now adding disclaimer to the older books to apologize for...who the hell knows these days.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1280973004604755968

It's the right move.  It's like making all your food products kosher.  Less than 1% of people observe kosher but most people have no issue eating food that is certified kosher.

This makes the appropriate signals - but it's not likely to actually lose them sales.  And it helps to be vague, all ecompassing and non-specific.

If they actual said anything specific they could be contradicted by any grifter with a youtube channel (and because no debate is actually allowed all criticisms are automatically valid).  This way they hopefully appease all the but the most strident, and head off future grifts.

It may not work, but it somewhat changes the situation.  Basically it attempts to turn the products into historical artifacts, in the hope that the responsibility for any racism can be put onto the end user, for not critically evaluating the product they're using.

Sounds like the disclaimer was just the first step:

QuoteA disclaimer has been added to several legacy titles on our partner distribution sites. We'd like to talk about why we've added that disclaimer, what it means, and other steps that are being taken to address a legacy of ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice in some old products.

This is an early step and not done in a vacuum. It's not enough to evaluate ourselves. As outlined in our original diversity statement (http://spr.ly/6184GTbpj), we're undergoing the process of reviewing our content and practices and hiring external consultants to review with us.

These processes take time to implement, and we'll continue to provide future updates. Unfortunately, our disclaimer was added before we were ready to fully communicate the steps we are taking. We apologize for failing to handle this situation with the care and grace it deserves.

Lastly, we want to make it clear that we condemn the harassment or bullying of those raising their concerns about our content, past or present. D&D wants to be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space. Those who do not reflect those values are not welcome in our community.

Simply put, we messed up and we're sorry. Wizards of the Coast is constantly working to be better, and we have a lot of work to do, especially so in repairing trust with our community. Thank you for continuing to use your voice so that we may continue to make meaningful change.

I'll be surprised if pre-5E products are still available come Michaelmas.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138582Sounds like the disclaimer was just the first step:



I'll be surprised if pre-5E products are still available come Michaelmas.

Greetings!

Geesus, the syrup slathered on is so thick! "Repairing trust with our community."? What the hell are they talking about?

They are so open and tolerant. Are they as fierce in defending those people that "raise their concerns about our content, past or present" if such people disagree with the mob? Or is disagreeing with the mob being guilty of "Harassment and bullying"?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sounds like mostly corp speak to me.

Are they really going to pay people to go back and look through all their past products for anything that might be indicative of racism?  That would seem a waste of time and money as anything can be claimed to be problematic material by a grifter as there is no threshold of offensiveness or reasonable argumentation that needs to be passed.

Perhaps they'll be paying consultants to go through future products (the grifters will be happy - what interest would any consultant have in saying a product needs no changes?).

People will complain that their response is largely PR but there isn't really other path left open to them?  Even if they're hiring consultants they will need to be careful to make sure they're hiring people that have never been heard of.  If they start hiring youtube commentators then they'll just be opening the door to an endless wave of future grifts.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1138571Well they are now adding disclaimer to the older books to apologize for...who the hell knows these days.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1280973004604755968

Half these comments gave me ulcers.

Quote from: TJS;1138578It's the right move.  It's like making all your food products kosher.  Less than 1% of people observe kosher but most people have no issue eating food that is certified kosher.

This is a particularly apt analogy, given that kosher meat involves animal cruelty, so those consuming it unwittingly make themselves complicit in animal cruelty or accept it cuz "religion". While the claims that old D&D products are somehow racist or prejudiced involves making false or misleading statements that unjustly paint the people who wrote or enjoyed them as bigots, but people unwittingly accept it cuz "opposing (imaginary) 'racism' is a good thing", and also cuz "religion".  So both are abusive practices that people accept because they're idiots who let religious people get away with anything.

Quote from: TJS;1138578It's the right move.

The mob will not be appeased.

The mob knows if their target makes a concession, it only means getting the next concession will be easier so they can demand more radical concessions.

The only right move is to say NO to the mob regardless of their crying.

Quote from: SHARK;1138585Greetings!

Geesus, the syrup slathered on is so thick! "Repairing trust with our community."? What the hell are they talking about?

They are so open and tolerant. Are they as fierce in defending those people that "raise their concerns about our content, past or present" if such people disagree with the mob? Or is disagreeing with the mob being guilty of "Harassment and bullying"?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, I particularly liked the implication that the people summarily declaring their products and the people who liked them "bigots" are somehow the victims of "harassment" in this instance. Really shows where their priorities lie.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138588Half these comments gave me ulcers.



This is a particularly apt analogy, given that kosher meat involves animal cruelty, so those consuming it unwittingly make themselves complicit in animal cruelty or accept it cuz "religion". While the claims that old D&D products are somehow racist or prejudiced involves making false or misleading statements that unjustly paint the people who wrote or enjoyed them as bigots, but people unwittingly accept it cuz "opposing (imaginary) 'racism' is a good thing", and also cuz "religion".  So both are abusive practices that people accept because they're idiots who let religious people get away with anything.

Bah.  This is the dislaimer.

QuoteWe at Wizards of the Coast recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today.

Well obviously values change (but not really as much as people think they have - but that's a separate point).

QuoteSome older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time.

Hedging.  They're not flat out admitting any prejudice just saying it's a possibility.  And by putting this on all old products they're really not implicating anyone specific.

QuoteThese depictions were wrong then and are wrong today.

We've lost the hedging here - which is bad and inconsisent grammar - there really should be a conditional here - but they're writing for different audiences and trying to head off complaints from more than one direction.  I guess you could infer the conditional or not based on what you want to read here - probably the intent.

QuoteThis content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed.

An actual argument presented against removing content (even if the content is prejudiced - which has not really been conceded).

QuoteDungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end

Vague motherhood statements about the future.

Mind you I think the disclaimer is dumb...as it should all be obvious to everyone with half a fucking brain.  But some kind of response was no doubt necessary.

As long as they offer the old books in the form of a previous printing release, so that the fan base still has access to the content; I don't really care if they want to wax poetic about rainbows, glitter, and unicorns in 2020 Seattle.  I guess that's their business plan?  

Allow the fan base to have access to the old content.  Or else don't, and the OSR will go full tilt in short order.  The OSR route won't continue to funnel money to WOTC; but the old books remaining available, will.

How long before they start editing the books to "fix" them?

Quote from: Omega;1138607How long before they start editing the books to "fix" them?

That's pretty much what I figured they have in store based on this part of their statement from Twitter...

QuoteThis is an early step and not done in a vacuum. It's not enough to evaluate ourselves. As outlined in our original diversity statement (http://spr.ly/6184GTbpj), we're undergoing the process of reviewing our content and practices and hiring external consultants to review with us.

These processes take time to implement, and we'll continue to provide future updates.

Also, from their linked statement...

QuoteWhen every D&D book is reprinted, we have an opportunity to correct errors that we or the broader D&D community discovered in that book. Each year, we use those opportunities to fix a variety of things, including errors in judgment. In recent reprintings of Tomb of Annihilation and Curse of Strahd, for example, we changed text that was racially insensitive. Those reprints have already been printed and will be available in the months ahead. We will continue this process, reviewing each book as it comes up for a reprint and fixing such errors where they are present.

So, technically, they already started doing it.

EDIT: Also, in case anyone wants to read their full “diversity” statement without giving wizards traffic, here’s the archived page...

http://archive.is/GtQ8T