Deodands. Magical thinking. 'The book makes people racist'.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1138381Now on every older D&D book on DMs Guild.

"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Postmodern Marxism at its finest, folks. "Everything before NOW was terrible, everything we say is right."

How long before this board is shutdown for wrongthink?

Quote from: Brad;1138453Postmodern Marxism at its finest, folks. "Everything before NOW was terrible, everything we say is right."

How long before this board is shutdown for wrongthink?

The funny thing is if they just left it at that -- a disclaimer, akin to ones seen with the old Warner Bros. cartoons -- I wouldn't mind so much.

But they cannot tolerate wrongthink, and it's time for a good ol' fashioned book-burning, a la the end of Dark Dungeons.

Quote from: Brad;1138453Postmodern Marxism at its finest, folks. "Everything before NOW was terrible, everything we say is right."

How long before this board is shutdown for wrongthink?

Do you miss where they say: "This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

Clearly there are still some sane people making decisions. Anyone who says erasing history is erasing history deserves a gold star, just like in elementary/primary school.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1138381Now on every older D&D book on DMs Guild.

"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

I suppose I should be happy with this rather than pulling the product. But I don't like the hair shirt "these depictions were wrong" -- I wish they'd just say "it was a product of its time" and leave it at that. I also really dislike the perverse incentive created here -- from the corporation's perspective, censorious outrage drives sales, so optimizing for profit means allowing or encouraging that behavior. And of course that behavior is really destructive. This really sucks.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138383And 'older' appears to mean 'pre-5E'--even the 4E stuff gets hit with this.

Ah, yes, 2008, the dark ages. It was so horrible to be alive back then. Thank God we live in these enlightened times.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138479Do you miss where they say: "This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

Clearly there are still some sane people making decisions. Anyone who says erasing history is erasing history deserves a gold star, just like in elementary/primary school.

How can you read that sentence and come to that conclusion? They aren't keeping these book unedited because they think erasing history is wrong. They are keeping them unedited to preserve the evidence that old D&D is bad and anyone who worked on or likes old D&D is, therefore, also bad.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138495How can you read that sentence and come to that conclusion? They aren't keeping these book unedited because they think erasing history is wrong. They are keeping them unedited to preserve the evidence that old D&D is bad and anyone who worked on or likes old D&D is, therefore, also bad.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It takes a while for people to start to be brainwashed into hating the past so much they want to remove it completely. Took the past 10 years to do that to George Washington, might take a couple before people are clamoring to remove Gygax's name from any reference to D&D.

Quote from: Brad;1138496Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It takes a while for people to start to be brainwashed into hating the past so much they want to remove it completely. Took the past 10 years to do that to George Washington, might take a couple before people are clamoring to remove Gygax's name from any reference to D&D.

   Possible, although I think it's more likely that they're just trying to have their cake (keep selling the old stuff) and eat it too (appease the Mob). Your explanation would fit why they did a blanket application to all the pre-5E material, although going for the quick and easy solution seems more probable.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1138497Possible, although I think it's more likely that they're just trying to have their cake (keep selling the old stuff) and eat it too (appease the Mob). Your explanation would fit why they did a blanket application to all the pre-5E material, although going for the quick and easy solution seems more probable.

SJWs have zero issue with profiting off "problematic" things. Someone else can't, however. Cf. Lovecraft/Chaosium.

Quote from: Brad;1138501SJWs have zero issue with profiting off "problematic" things. Someone else can't, however. Cf. Lovecraft/Chaosium.

   Wasn't the start of this a complaint that WotC was still profiting off of the book?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1138381Now on every older D&D book on DMs Guild.

"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

There are two fundamental issues with this statement:

1: It comes from the backwards position that these prejudices existed and are actually there, and this is a settled fact and not a matter of opinion at best, or pure fabrication at worse (which is closer to the sliding scale these people are operating from). It is simply "racist" or sexist or whatever.

It was declared "racist" or sexist or bigoted in some other way, therefore it IS racist or sexist or bigoted. Because someone from a position of self-appointed authority without oversight said it was so, therefore it is so.

2: It reinforces the notion that their judgement on this matter is absolute, transcending historical context, and that no historical period is beyond their purview as far as rendering this judgement is concerned. This content has been deemed prejudiced PERIOD.

EVERYONE is guilty, and there's no appeal process or statute of limitations on bigotry, or recourse but to accept your bigotry. You are eternally guilty of this thing that has been presented as a settled issue, when it isn't.


But hey, at least they're letting you give them money in exchange for their racist RPG supplements, amirite (ya bigots)?

I think it was C. S. Lewis that said in an argument something similar to, "Really, if it is as bad as all that, I will not participate at all."  

You've convinced me WotC:  No more money for you for anything.  Your judgment of what is a problem is suspect.  Your logic is suspect.  Your morals are suspect.  Your marketing is suspect.  Your interaction with other human beings as human beings is suspect.  Your sense of basic decency is rotting fast.  Really, the only thing you've got going for you right now is some rather solid but plebeian game design, a large market, and ownership of a beloved brand.  You've started to coast on those positives.  Some of your idiot critics are even worse, but that can only take you so far.  Well, if it is as bad as all that, I'm out.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138394The language used in Volo's Guide is identical to the rhetoric used to dehumanize the indigenous peoples victimized by colonialism (including native Americans, Australian aboriginals, and slavic peoples). Read it out loud. If that language was applied to any human group, then it would be obviously dehumanizing and racist.

Half the time Volo comes across as a liar and a jackass so that might have actually been intentional. Showing what a ass he is.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138379Who is comparing orcs with African Americans? I scrolled through the twitter cesspool and I have not found anybody arguing this.

You didn't search anything, since it took me seconds to find ONE asshole arguing exactly that, since your "argument" is destroyed by a single example to the contrary...

https://twitter.com/wfyoungblood/status/1279781258407686145

https://twitter.com/wfyoungblood/status/1279812730199908352

Archived just in case:

http://archive.is/rg4oI

http://archive.is/i4f6N

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138451Why is it okay to use racist rhetoric un-ironically against fictional characters?

I get needing targets to farm for XP and loot, but D&D tacks on a ton of unnecessary baggage.

Care to tell us what racist language is being used against these fictional characters and who it's really aimed at if not the fictional characters? Because fictional characters aren't real. And to what degree is anyone supposed to be invested in the internal thoughts of strangers that *might* infer incorrectly, yet presume they are in fact the target of the assumed fictional "hate speech"... seems... a bit much to ask for.

I have yet to see anyone ask me what I feel. I'm starting to think no one cares. LOL is that what you're intimating has to happen? We have to tantrum and riot to get people to pay attention to our feelings? Because that's where this is going (with much darker implications already unfolding).