Quote from: David Johansen;1138338Huh, so Tolkien's elves are just elves on a high protein diet, anabolic steroids, and an intensive training regime?

According to Tolkien, orcs are elves who have been kidnapped, tortured, mutilated and transformed by Morgoth. It's not even clear if they can reproduce, or if the only source of orcs is mutilated elves.
Although technically Saruman has evolved them in Uruk-Hai, which he bred in the pits of Isengard. So I guess you can create them without access to elves, somehow.

Quote from: tenbones;1138075This misses the point. Orcs exist for the purposes of narrative conflict. Just like playing chess requires someone to play the dark side, and the other play the light side. The ideology is infringing on the purpose of the game. Just like the idiots in entertainment and the arts are allowing the ideology to come before their respective arts. It is propaganda at the expense of the point. It's a means to demonize and take control over the hobby for the purposes of bolstering the political narrative.

Leonorks existing does *nothing* to resolve their idiotic assertion that Orcs are analogous to American Black people. Which is pretty racist in its own right. But that's not the larger point - the idea is to get people to bend by flooding the zone. Nevermind any hypocrisies dredged up along the way.

And thus here we are.

Because once they scour Orcs from the game... it'll be whatever that stands in for them that will be the next thing. Then we'll have "Leon" versions of those. etc. etc. with the real agenda of proving your apostasy to their faith... or outright heresy.

I have no idea where anybody got the idea that orcs are in any way drawing upon racial stereotypes of African Americans. They're clearing drawing from historical depictions of Germanic tribes, Asian steppe nomads, and pre-colonial indigenous peoples. The language used in Volo's Guide is identical to rhetoric used by colonizers from the Roman legions to the Spanish conquistadors to the British imperialists.

If orcs and half-orcs were routinely being raped and enslaved by the "light" races on the basis of their race, then that would be a clear parallel. As it stands, orcs display no traits unique to historical depictions of African Americans.

Let's not let being politically correct get in the way of our games of shame, torches and pitchforks now!

Barbaric Evil orcs can be fun, cultured non-evil or morally gray orcs can be fun. I think the issue for me is when people say one of these two approaches are not to be allowed, that there is a problem. In terms of what works for most D&D settings, I think evil orcs are a reliable stand by for a reason, so it makes sense for that to be the default (but individual worlds going in different directions, or GMs going in different directions in their own campaigns are always interesting to me). I made orcs like Romans in my setting, because I liked having them more civilized, but it still kept them warlike. I also had orcs elsewhere in the setting that fit different types. For example the hill orcs and mountain orcs (which were a perpetual threat to the settled places) were basically like D&D orcs. And I had a kind of Fire and Ice tribe of orcs led by an evil necromancer in the far north that worked well.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1138345Let's not let being politically correct get in the way of our games of shame, torches and pitchforks now!

Politically correct towards whom? The vikings, mongols, and First Nations peoples who the orcs are loosely based on?

Orcs are not based on caricatures of African Americans! Who specifically is arguing that and what is their evidence?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1138352Barbaric Evil orcs can be fun, cultured non-evil or morally gray orcs can be fun. I think the issue for me is when people say one of these two approaches are not to be allowed, that there is a problem. In terms of what works for most D&D settings, I think evil orcs are a reliable stand by for a reason, so it makes sense for that to be the default (but individual worlds going in different directions, or GMs going in different directions in their own campaigns are always interesting to me). I made orcs like Romans in my setting, because I liked having them more civilized, but it still kept them warlike. I also had orcs elsewhere in the setting that fit different types. For example the hill orcs and mountain orcs (which were a perpetual threat to the settled places) were basically like D&D orcs. And I had a kind of Fire and Ice tribe of orcs led by an evil necromancer in the far north that worked well.

I can agree with this. I personally draw the line, as GM, at saying that killing baby orcs is kosher or that fictional rape victims have no recourse to abort their half-orc pregnancies. I watched Goblin Slayer and that was like watching a cartoon adaptation of FATAL. I don't want magical realm bullshit to be forced upon myself or others as the dominant paradigm any more than I want an absurd maxim like "all members of a particular race are perfectly good."

I'm playing a children's game, not the sadistic adventures of Killfuck Soulshitter.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138341I have no idea where anybody got the idea that orcs are in any way drawing upon racial stereotypes of African Americans.

Because the people making complaints about orcs and racism in D&D are making shit up without putting much thought into their positions.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138375Because the people making complaints about orcs and racism in D&D are making shit up without putting much thought into their positions.

Who is comparing orcs with African Americans? I scrolled through the twitter cesspool and I have not found anybody arguing this.

Now on every older D&D book on DMs Guild.

"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1138381Now on every older D&D book on DMs Guild.

"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

And 'older' appears to mean 'pre-5E'--even the 4E stuff gets hit with this.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138379Who is comparing orcs with African Americans? I scrolled through the twitter cesspool and I have not found anybody arguing this.

Theres been a few now, theres an older thread here about some nutcase pretending to be a professor or somesuch making that claim. Its been tossed around at least once a year for the last 5 or so. Least thats when I started really noticing it popping up amidst all the avvusiations of D&D is "sexist!"

Quote from: Omega;1138387Theres been a few now, theres an older thread here about some nutcase pretending to be a professor or somesuch making that claim. Its been tossed around at least once a year for the last 5 or so. Least thats when I started really noticing it popping up amidst all the avvusiations of D&D is "sexist!"

Orcs are clearly drawing from depictions of vikings, mongols, and indigenous peoples. D&D is, after all, a product of American authors. America has a history of Manifest Destiny. This influence is very obvious, especially in older editions with a greater focus on exploring mysterious frontiers.

The language used in Volo's Guide is identical to the rhetoric used to dehumanize the indigenous peoples victimized by colonialism (including native Americans, Australian aboriginals, and slavic peoples). Read it out loud. If that language was applied to any human group, then it would be obviously dehumanizing and racist.

I don't understand why these simple observations would be the least bit controversial. These are hardly new. I see essays on this topic dating back a couple decades at least.

What is controversial is the desire of certain parties to dictate how others chose to interpret these things.  Back when I was a kid my Dad would point at things with his middle finger and we'd get all upset that he was using that offensive digit.  His answer then I give to you now, "It means precisely what I intend it to mean, no more, no less."

It's funny how much the left vilifies the crusaders in their crusades.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesWho is comparing orcs with African Americans? I scrolled through the twitter cesspool and I have not found anybody arguing this.

Quote from: Omega;1138387Theres been a few now, theres an older thread here about some nutcase pretending to be a professor or somesuch making that claim. Its been tossed around at least once a year for the last 5 or so. Least thats when I started really noticing it popping up amidst all the avvusiations of D&D is "sexist!"

I remember discussion of professor Antero Garcia's 2017 paper on race and gender in D&D, but he doesn't compare orcs with African-Americans. There's plenty of other criticisms to be thrown at him, but that isn't one of them. (Unless there's another professor also talking about race and D&D, but I haven't seen such.)

I'm sure that given the Internet, someone somewhere has once made that comparison -- but it doesn't seem to be a widespread claim.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138394Orcs are clearly drawing from depictions of vikings, mongols, and indigenous peoples. D&D is, after all, a product of American authors. America has a history of Manifest Destiny. This influence is very obvious, especially in older editions with a greater focus on exploring mysterious frontiers.

The language used in Volo's Guide is identical to the rhetoric used to dehumanize the indigenous peoples victimized by colonialism (including native Americans, Australian aboriginals, and slavic peoples). Read it out loud. If that language was applied to any human group, then it would be obviously dehumanizing and racist.

I don't understand why these simple observations would be the least bit controversial. These are hardly new. I see essays on this topic dating back a couple decades at least.

My observations is, if you think that Orcs are Humans wearing rubber Orc masks then you would be right to think that they are being dehumanised.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138417My observations is, if you think that Orcs are Humans wearing rubber Orc masks then you would be right to think that they are being dehumanised.

Why is it okay to use racist rhetoric un-ironically against fictional characters?

I get needing targets to farm for XP and loot, but D&D tacks on a ton of unnecessary baggage.