Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137980You could substitute humans for orcs easily enough. Orcs are obvious adversaries, humans are not. If orcs aren't going to be evil, what good are they for, if they are not something PCs can kill to gain experience points and to take their treasure? If you substitute humans for orcs, what do you need orcs for? Humans can be bad, they can do the same stuff that orcs do. If you change orcs so they are just an ugly race players can play, what use are they to the DM? I guess they can give you bonuses on strength, I suppose the half-orc is of less use if you could play a full orc. What do you think?

Why put anything into games? Because it's fun and interesting.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1137989The issue isn't that traditionally evil races can't potentially be good. The real issue is that people want to make believe that making traditionally "evil" races evil is racist, and expect everyone else (specially official published worlds) to treat this aa a standard. Rather than making their own world or using one of numerous settings where orcs already are not evil by default, which have existed for decades.

It's the satanic panic all over again, with the bad thing this time being "racism".

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137981What's next, how about good vampires?

The problem I see in having a "Good" Vampire is that you have to solve the problem of what they are going to be feeding on.  If they feed on Humans then how "good" are they going to be really.

Its kind of like having a good Cannibal - he only eats bad people.

Somehow this is not suprising, the paradox of having a flawed character play a part in situations he must decide his priorities is very popular, for example take Dexter=serial killer killing other serial killers, Shield=corrupt cop fighting criminals, House MD=drug addict doctor healing incredibly complex cases. Heck, its hard to find a clear cut character these days.

I agree with Ratman_tf, its a case of bad mentality and another modern witchhunt we are witnessing.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138012The problem I see in having a "Good" Vampire is that you have to solve the problem of what they are going to be feeding on.  If they feed on Humans then how "good" are they going to be really.

Its kind of like having a good Cannibal - he only eats bad people.

There are a few television shows and movies based on this premise, vampires become a sort of superhero, not that I'm fond of this genre. If a vampire is not particular about who's blood they suck, they could feed off the blood of cows and pigs for example, since people eat those animals anyway, a vampire could work in a slaughter house, those animals when killed need to have their blood drained to preserve the meat. This goes far afield of what a vampire was originally supposed to be. If it is specified that vampires need to drink human blood, then they basically ignore elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings, if it is specified that they need to drink the blood of intelligent creatures rather than cows, pigs, and chickens, it starts to get ridiculous.

Socially if a vampire drinks the blood of livestock instead of people, someone is less likely to drive a wooden stake through his heart, it is much safer for a vampire to feed off the blood of animals, though that kind of makes vampires a bit pointless and undramatic.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138012The problem I see in having a "Good" Vampire is that you have to solve the problem of what they are going to be feeding on.  If they feed on Humans then how "good" are they going to be really.

Its kind of like having a good Cannibal - he only eats bad people.

D&D player characters kill a lot of bad creatures anyway, so a vampire could be part of a player character party, he would go with them through dungeons sucking the blood or draining the energy from various evil aligned creatures than player characters encounter.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138010It's the satanic panic all over again, with the bad thing this time being "racism".

Oh there was tries at it in the 90s. But not much came of it then.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138012The problem I see in having a "Good" Vampire is that you have to solve the problem of what they are going to be feeding on.  If they feed on Humans then how "good" are they going to be really.

Its kind of like having a good Cannibal - he only eats bad people.

You just solved your own problem of what the good vampire is feeding on...

The villains.

Or like in some stories. Animals, blood donations, artificial/alchemical blood, some other means.

Pretty sure theres some examples in Ravenloft.

Night Howlers for BECMI had werewolves trying to settle down and not be monsters. Policing themselves and penalizing turning someone without authorization or supervision. And when they have to wolf out they do so far from people.

In my head canon being a vampire is not desirable, it is a horrible curse, like being a meth-head but addicted to human blood instead of meth. W/o getting the blood you begin to age, rot, decay, suffer the pain of rigor mortis, suffer "sleep-limb", suffer constant attendance of rats insects and vermin that barely obey your commands, have a brain itch that consumes all thought and bends it towards finding blood, become twitchy, starving hunger pangs, nauseated but cannot eat anything but blood, itchy, hyper focus on the need for blood to the extent that you cannot concentrate on anything but getting blood, the side effects of not getting it, or longing for the peace of oblivion to end the suffering.

This is why when I see female (anyone really but females seem to be the primary culprits) fathom vampirism as desirable or romantic i cannot help but heap derision and scorn upon them as if they were children longing to fork the wall socket for the romantic tingling sensation that 110 volts brings in every YA novel.

Quote from: tenbones;1137995Because by making them "human" it is the stepping stone for cultural Marxists to further undermine the entirety of the game in order to control how we engage with it publicly. It becomes the mast of their shitty sail on what is/is not allowed under the auspices of deconstructing *everything* in real life by using your engagement with the game as an example of how to ostracize undesirables of Wrongthink from their newly conquered territory of TTRPG's.

Why do you think so many of us have been permabanned from TBP? LITERALLY the first day I arrived here was due to being banned for arguing charges that Paizo as a company was racist for their presentation of Orcs (because years ago when this started, they were chanting "Orcs are Blacks".) And now Paizo apparently agrees they were indeed racist, and this perverted view of reality has permeated far beyond TTRPG's.

So make-believe isn't real. What happens at a gaming table is not a reflection of people playing (necessarily). And if people want fake moralizing in their products - have at it. WotC has made it clear WE are not who they want playing their game, and they don't want my money. No problem.

How about we come to a compromise?

The book "Children of the Planes" includes a race of aasimar/orcs called "leonorks." If players and GMs want orcs who are good, then they can use leonorks. This would leave the evil greenskins untouched.

Never compromise with the censorship Brigade regardless of which side of the Horseshoe they're on.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1138062How about we come to a compromise?

The book "Children of the Planes" includes a race of aasimar/orcs called "leonorks." If players and GMs want orcs who are good, then they can use leonorks. This would leave the evil greenskins untouched.

This misses the point. Orcs exist for the purposes of narrative conflict. Just like playing chess requires someone to play the dark side, and the other play the light side. The ideology is infringing on the purpose of the game. Just like the idiots in entertainment and the arts are allowing the ideology to come before their respective arts. It is propaganda at the expense of the point. It's a means to demonize and take control over the hobby for the purposes of bolstering the political narrative.

Leonorks existing does *nothing* to resolve their idiotic assertion that Orcs are analogous to American Black people. Which is pretty racist in its own right. But that's not the larger point - the idea is to get people to bend by flooding the zone. Nevermind any hypocrisies dredged up along the way.

And thus here we are.

Because once they scour Orcs from the game... it'll be whatever that stands in for them that will be the next thing. Then we'll have "Leon" versions of those. etc. etc. with the real agenda of proving your apostasy to their faith... or outright heresy.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138022D&D player characters kill a lot of bad creatures anyway, so a vampire could be part of a player character party, he would go with them through dungeons sucking the blood or draining the energy from various evil aligned creatures than player characters encounter.

Quote from: Omega;1138028You just solved your own problem of what the good vampire is feeding on...

The villains.

You certainly do go through a lot of enemies in DnD and on the other hand there is going to be down time at some stage but Vampires still got to eat.

For me the fun would be finding something that can keep your good Vampire going, however I suspect that for most people it would just be for the lols of having a "good" Vampire probably a blue or pink Tiefling.

After After orcs and drow it will be any depiction of black people. Then anyone with a tan because having a tan is racist now too. No I kid you not. These sociopaths have accused artists of this now. How long before they start accusing real people for having a tan. Or wearing black. Because thats racist too you know.

But the well hasnt been poisoned enough so they will target anyone with a spear.

Quote from: tenbones;1138075This misses the point. Orcs exist for the purposes of narrative conflict. Just like playing chess requires someone to play the dark side, and the other play the light side. The ideology is infringing on the purpose of the game. Just like the idiots in entertainment and the arts are allowing the ideology to come before their respective arts. It is propaganda at the expense of the point. It's a means to demonize and take control over the hobby for the purposes of bolstering the political narrative.

Leonorks existing does *nothing* to resolve their idiotic assertion that Orcs are analogous to American Black people. Which is pretty racist in its own right. But that's not the larger point - the idea is to get people to bend by flooding the zone. Nevermind any hypocrisies dredged up along the way.

And thus here we are.

Because once they scour Orcs from the game... it'll be whatever that stands in for them that will be the next thing. Then we'll have "Leon" versions of those. etc. etc. with the real agenda of proving your apostasy to their faith... or outright heresy.

It also misses the point that you don't need to invent a separate breed of good-aligned planar orcs just to have good (or non-evil) orcs in your campaign. You can already include a tribe of non-evil actual green skinned orcs in your campaign if that is what you want. Non-evil orcs fully integrated into mainstream society already even exist in some published settings, including Al-Qadim and Eberron. These things already exist. It's a moot point. This is literally a non-issue outside of trying to force non-evil orcs as the universal default rather than just having non-evil orc tribes in your campaign or playing Al-Qadim.