Quote from: Rhiannon;1137751As has been pointed out in a few threads already, not-evil Orcs, Goblins, Ogres and Drow have existed in D&D going back at least to 2e if not even earlier. So the claims of both the pseduo-tradionalists and the identity-political critics are, as usual, ignorant of history. Usually because both are not particularly interested in either reading or reflection.

Non evil orcs go back to OD&D. They could be neutral or chaotic.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1137852The hobby is the verge of yet another collapse. Start making your bets.

Last time it was due to everyone trying to cash in on the CCG craze and instead cashing very out of the business as the CCG bubble broke rather fast.

This time we are seeing a concerted push by marketing and SJWs to get rid of the old playerbase and replace it with new cattle that are stupid and happy to be slaughtered.

Quote from: Omega;1137924Actually Orcs act more like european imperialists/colonists. They sweep into a region, lay ruin to the existing civilizations and enslave or kill the populace. The only thing slowing them down is that they war incessantly with eachother. In Greyhawk they literally have a mandate from god to lay waste to civilization and destroy or enslave all non-orcs.

''All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Oeridians ever done for us?" "Brought peace."

Quote from: Omega;1137926Non evil orcs go back to OD&D. They could be neutral or chaotic.

So they are just ugly humanoids now, what do we need them for?

Quote from: Omega;1137924Actually Orcs act more like european imperialists/colonists. They sweep into a region, lay ruin to the existing civilizations and enslave or kill the populace. The only thing slowing them down is that they war incessantly with eachother. In Greyhawk they literally have a mandate from god to lay waste to civilization and destroy or enslave all non-orcs.

Not just European colonists. Any colonists in human history. Raiders, tribal warfare, ethnically-charged violence in general... Orcs are the Other personified. They simultaneously represent how victims of colonialism perceive their oppressors and how colonizers perceive their victims. Even the artistic trend to morally humanize orcs could trace its roots to the general decline of racism, the rise of multiculturalism, and the repudiation of colonialist pasts.

Simply put, orcs are human. We created them and thus they reflect our thoughts and feelings.

I don't understand why there is so much resistance to the depiction of more nuanced, non-inherently-evil orcs (or other humanoid races). It's been a thing for a few decades now.

Dunno where boxcrayon is going, but then whatever gets you through the night. Just FYI everyone, there has already been a canon half-orc paladin in 2e ("Lands of Intrigue" iirc?) which meant it had to be Lawful Good.

All this furor is just typical ignorant, self-righteous posturing by nanny-harpy "mean girls." They are bitter junior high ended and now want to cancel everyone and everything before the reunion. Just go enjoy your GM's fictional world and have fun! Let the embittered uncreatives stew in their own envious juices.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137941So they are just ugly humanoids now, what do we need them for?

You miss the point. Massively.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1137943I don't understand why there is so much resistance to the depiction of more nuanced, non-inherently-evil orcs (or other humanoid races). It's been a thing for a few decades now.

Its been a thing since apparently the get-go as various players from the start have recounted doing this or that with orcs and about anything else.

Quote from: Omega;1137977You miss the point. Massively.

You could substitute humans for orcs easily enough. Orcs are obvious adversaries, humans are not. If orcs aren't going to be evil, what good are they for, if they are not something PCs can kill to gain experience points and to take their treasure? If you substitute humans for orcs, what do you need orcs for? Humans can be bad, they can do the same stuff that orcs do. If you change orcs so they are just an ugly race players can play, what use are they to the DM? I guess they can give you bonuses on strength, I suppose the half-orc is of less use if you could play a full orc. What do you think?

Quote from: Omega;1137978Its been a thing since apparently the get-go as various players from the start have recounted doing this or that with orcs and about anything else.

What's next, how about good vampires?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1137971Dunno where boxcrayon is going, but then whatever gets you through the night. Just FYI everyone, there has already been a canon half-orc paladin in 2e ("Lands of Intrigue" iirc?) which meant it had to be Lawful Good.

um... Half orcs dont have any alignment restrictions so if they can access a class with alignment requirements and meet that requirement then off they go.

Note thought that Half orcs (and gnomes) were not in core 2e. They were though in the Complete Humanoids book. Scro (space orcs) can be PCs in the Spelljammer Complete Spacefarer book.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137981What's next, how about good vampires?

Theres a good aligned type of Liche. Allmost certainly some good vamps out there of some sort. Night Howlers introduced PC lycanthropes for example.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137980You could substitute humans for orcs easily enough. Orcs are obvious adversaries, humans are not. If orcs aren't going to be evil, what good are they for, if they are not something PCs can kill to gain experience points and to take their treasure? If you substitute humans for orcs, what do you need orcs for? Humans can be bad, they can do the same stuff that orcs do. If you change orcs so they are just an ugly race players can play, what use are they to the DM? I guess they can give you bonuses on strength, I suppose the half-orc is of less use if you could play a full orc. What do you think?

You can already substitute humans for orcs and make them evil to kill them, gain their XP and take their stuff. You can substitute elves and dwarves too. You've never needed orcs for that. You need orcs because they're different, add variety to encounters and get a bonus to strength, which makes them more dangerous than your average human raider or brigand.

Granted, that doesn't mean that therefore orcs have to be good, specially if all orcs in a specific setting are supposed to be evil (or at least predominantly). But being able to use them as cannon fodder on its own is not a good reason to make them exclusively evil when you have always been able to use ANY race as cannon fodder.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137981What's next, how about good vampires?

You mean like Angel?

OK, not a D&D example. But D&D has had good drow and orc NPCs already since decades ago. So "good" characters of traditionally "evil" races are not exactly a new thing. In D&D or fiction in general.

The issue isn't that traditionally evil races can't potentially be good. The real issue is that people want to make believe that making traditionally "evil" races evil is racist, and expect everyone else (specially official published worlds) to treat this aa a standard. Rather than making their own world or using one of numerous settings where orcs already are not evil by default, which have existed for decades.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1137943Not just European colonists. Any colonists in human history. Raiders, tribal warfare, ethnically-charged violence in general... Orcs are the Other personified. They simultaneously represent how victims of colonialism perceive their oppressors and how colonizers perceive their victims. Even the artistic trend to morally humanize orcs could trace its roots to the general decline of racism, the rise of multiculturalism, and the repudiation of colonialist pasts.

Simply put, orcs are human. We created them and thus they reflect our thoughts and feelings.

I don't understand why there is so much resistance to the depiction of more nuanced, non-inherently-evil orcs (or other humanoid races). It's been a thing for a few decades now.

Because by making them "human" it is the stepping stone for cultural Marxists to further undermine the entirety of the game in order to control how we engage with it publicly. It becomes the mast of their shitty sail on what is/is not allowed under the auspices of deconstructing *everything* in real life by using your engagement with the game as an example of how to ostracize undesirables of Wrongthink from their newly conquered territory of TTRPG's.

Why do you think so many of us have been permabanned from TBP? LITERALLY the first day I arrived here was due to being banned for arguing charges that Paizo as a company was racist for their presentation of Orcs (because years ago when this started, they were chanting "Orcs are Blacks".) And now Paizo apparently agrees they were indeed racist, and this perverted view of reality has permeated far beyond TTRPG's.

So make-believe isn't real. What happens at a gaming table is not a reflection of people playing (necessarily). And if people want fake moralizing in their products - have at it. WotC has made it clear WE are not who they want playing their game, and they don't want my money. No problem.

Greetings!

Exactly. The whole stench in the room is the very point of WOTC, Paizo, and other such companies, developers and individuals making such a moralizing arrogant position. It is needlessly and arrogantly grandstanding in order to *enforce* company policy, module writing, and so on in order to reflect and *enforce* such a cock-sucking ideology. It is rooted in racism, Marxism, and grievance studies bullshit.

Once upon a time, however, we would have a buddy note to us, "In my campaign world, while most Orcs are evil savages, the Orcs of the Red Claw tribe have formed a primitive kingdom, and are known for not embracing an evil alignment for many members of their tribal kingdom. They have negotiated trade agreements with several local human communities, and are sometimes known for hiring barbarian regiments of Red Claw Orc warriors out to various factions in the region. While aggressive, violent, and proud, the Orcs of The Red Claw Kingdom are known to honour their treaties and trade agreements. Also of note, the Orcs of The Red Claw Kingdom do not worship the traditional Orc pantheon of deities, but instead worship a primarily nature-themed and animistic religion."

THAT has been going on since the early days of the hobby, and doing so doesn't offend anyone, or insult anyone's intelligence or dignity.

The recent policy moves and grandstanding by WOTC and Paizo, in particular, is moralizing, and an attempt to ram their Marxist, racist fucking attitude and ideology down the throats of the entire hobby.

And some people wonder incredulously, why so many people are fucking angry, insulted, and offended?

Fucking dense as a bucket of sand!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK