Quote from: RPGPundit;1137289Oriental Adventures is based on silly stereotypes from movies and comics and pop culture rather than real history and culture.

So is the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Greyhawk.

Why aren't European-descended people complaining about the stereotyping of Medieval Europe in those settings, which is JUST AS RIDICULOUS AND FULL OF INACCURACIES as OE is to Asia.

As others pointed out, the real answer here is that if you want historically and culturally accurate Asian settings for D&D, which I agree would be utterly awesome, you should do as I did for Europe (and, for that matter, India) and WRITE a historically and culturally accurate setting.

On the other hand if what you want is to show off your totalitarianism through book banning, then what you ought to do is go fucking find someone to beat you to death to the great benefit of humanity.

This is my argument as well.  D&D is a mash up of fiction with some European stylings.  Oriental adventures is no more or less accurate in its portrayal of feudal Japan.

What is infuriatingly obvious is that both paint their cultural inspiration as heroic.  Samurai PCs are no less lovingly treated than their paladin counterparts.  

The problem is that most of us won't do what needs to be done or more specifically avoid what needs to be avoided.  If the sjw culture thugs are in control, starve them out.  Stop buying their product and look for substance elsewhere!  

I think they are mistaken about where the power of the purse exists.  Many of these sjw sorts are copying and sharing.  Meanwhile, working stiffs who are a bit more experienced are buying stuff up (well I WAS buying too, past tense). I don't have data but believe my purchasing power for the hobby is probably 5 times the average complainer who may not even be a fucking gamer!

With social media, entertainment and other places creating an echo chamber, all it takes is a few outraged sjw sorts to spread the word and watch previously content sjw followers fall in line.  Everyone is playing D&D or whatever and SUDDENLY they all have an epiphany, all at the same time! about how harmful their activity has been.  Wow. A mass awakening at a single point in time.  Uncanny.  They are not lemmings.  They got woke.  All at once.

I just helped my 1st grader make his first character.  He is a half orc barbarian who was rescued by halflings and became their villages protector.  Cool story for a kid to pretend.  This same anti Oriental Adventurs crowd could probably read the fucking Rorschach and determine I have taught my kid to hate on racial minorities, "little people," and people of color all at once.  Christ in the morning!  We just thought he was gonna pretend to be a benevolent hero/protector!  

They have no sense of archetypes, myth (primordial serpent level shit) or anything that was in print before the digital era.  But they sure know more than anyone else about it.  They don't have to read it, study it, look at data....they KNOW.

Kids, stop supporting this shit.  Buy independent.  Make your own stuff.  Do not finance this effete unexciting form of castrated fantasy!

In my books the orientals live in a island southeast of the main land. More like Japan than China. Mongols never grew in me. I just consider Japanese to be the perfect Asian culture representatives. They're clean, well mannered, and have a code of conduct.

Kenjiwah in a nutshell,
Men live by the sword. (Bushido)
Women live to tend their men and raise children.

One piece that I really enjoyed writing was harakiri. 4 Asian girls were traded for wealth by their families and were set to marry a millennial like schizophrenic type of lord. You kinda crash the wedding and rescues them. Later you can turn them into your wives or have them work in your land to repay their debt to you. If you sit idle all four commit harakiri! Or not, depends on GM.

Quote from: jhkim;1137303The original article links to a series of video logs. But they're over twenty hours of video (!?!?!). I haven't watched them.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbQUmmaVBxqob5bR9O4nggup8mhxEsJd5

That said, I did post two examples of what I personally thought of as stereotypes in Post #23. The first was from the section on honor:



So, a European knight's honor is about being good -- but Oriental honor is not. None of the native Japanese RPGs that I've seen have a point system for honor like this. Honor was important in medieval Japan -- but it was important in medieval Europe too! It's a broadly important concept across cultures.

My other example was this one from the section on law:



Again, this did happen in historical medieval Japan -- but again, it also happened medieval Europe -- and yet you don't find this characterization in standard D&D. In standard AD&D, paladins and cavaliers are generally embodiments of good. They don't cut down commoners for insulting them. But in Oriental Adventures, an honorable samurai isn't idealized in that way.

Greetings!

Right, Jhkim. However, people are often *MORE* familiar with the snippets of history, literature, and film drama, such as SHOGUN, where Japanese cultural sensibilities--as well as China, and other Asian nations is the view of Asians being more disciplined, more ruthless, and less concerned about "Human Rights" than that of Europe. It isn't just SHOGUN, either. This view of Asian cultures goes *way back* to the Macedonians, ala Alexander The Great, and even before him. The Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Romans all had long viewed "The East" as being more ruthless, more authoritarian, e.g. "Oriental Despotism" and not as concerned with "Human Rights", "Citizenship" and an "Enlightened Rule" as much as Classical Greece and the Roman Republic. Such perceptions towards Asia in general have formed the foundation of our social and political views of Asia to the present day.

All of those ancient perceptions of the Orient has been further punctuated by the more recent American experiences against the Japanese Empire in World War II, and against Communist China and Communist North Korea during the Korean War.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim;1137303The original article links to a series of video logs. But they're over twenty hours of video (!?!?!). I haven't watched them.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbQUmmaVBxqob5bR9O4nggup8mhxEsJd5

That said, I did post two examples of what I personally thought of as stereotypes in Post #23. The first was from the section on honor:



So, a European knight's honor is about being good -- but Oriental honor is not. None of the native Japanese RPGs that I've seen have a point system for honor like this. Honor was important in medieval Japan -- but it was important in medieval Europe too! It's a broadly important concept across cultures.

My other example was this one from the section on law:



Again, this did happen in historical medieval Japan -- but again, it also happened medieval Europe -- and yet you don't find this characterization in standard D&D. In standard AD&D, paladins and cavaliers are generally embodiments of good. They don't cut down commoners for insulting them. But in Oriental Adventures, an honorable samurai isn't idealized in that way.

I saw that they referred any questions to what their issue was to their youtube videos. Makes me wonder if they are just trying to get more views.

The two examples you listed did not tweak any of my Chinese friends and colleagues I checked with, and I am not watching 20 hours of whining videos ....

Quote from: jhkim;1137303The original article links to a series of video logs. But they're over twenty hours of video (!?!?!). I haven't watched them.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbQUmmaVBxqob5bR9O4nggup8mhxEsJd5

That said, I did post two examples of what I personally thought of as stereotypes in Post #23. The first was from the section on honor:



So, a European knight's honor is about being good -- but Oriental honor is not. None of the native Japanese RPGs that I've seen have a point system for honor like this. Honor was important in medieval Japan -- but it was important in medieval Europe too! It's a broadly important concept across cultures.

My other example was this one from the section on law:



Again, this did happen in historical medieval Japan -- but again, it also happened medieval Europe -- and yet you don't find this characterization in standard D&D. In standard AD&D, paladins and cavaliers are generally embodiments of good. They don't cut down commoners for insulting them. But in Oriental Adventures, an honorable samurai isn't idealized in that way.

It's like the two books were written by different people who focused on different details when writing their stuff.

So, are the other books offensive because they don't include the nuance of station and morality? Why did Oriental Adventures get the privilige of having a more deep portrayal of culture?
Because this critique is through the lens of the oppressed who want to find excuses to have a book banned.

I tried to watch the videos... I'm open minded to the point these guys might be wanting to make, but they are laboring pretty heavily on some really minor issues.  And drawing some seriously long bows.  eg, I think it's completely legit to question why a game about Asian doesn't have any contributions from Asians.  But reading through a list of authors and then automatically assuming (a) their level of expertise and (b) their ethnicity, based purely on their names...

I think it's completely legit to review books written in the past with a more contemporary lens.  But a series of 10 videos, each 90-120 minutes long?  No surprise that the view count for their series of videos drops off significantly.  There's a huge difference between something that is cheap, cheesy or cliched versus something that is overtly racist.  IMHO, using an Asian-inspired font may be kinda cliched and a bit tacky, but I struggle to see it as racist.  I mean, no more than using a gothic style font when representing Germanic people.  Ragging on a 35 year old book for basically being a bit crap, doesn't really amount to much of an argument.

My wife is European, but she can't tell you much about medeaval European combat, she doesn't have a sword or a suit of Armor, so I'm not sure she would be the person you'd want to ask.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1137280they can certainly make this forum the very last place you can speak about anything unapproved

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4629[/ATTACH]

I made my peace a long time ago with exile from the commercial hobby; of the fan aspects of gamerdom.  I'd suggest everyone do the same.  This isn't being defeatist, it's moving to the rebuilding stage.  The judge decreed your ex gets the '63 stingray and the title is signed over.  They don't like the car, they don't need the money, and they're posting a new pic on facebook every day where it's a little closer to the cliff they're going to dump it over just for spite.  Mourning in advance and dreading the sea getting clearer in the background each day isn't going to help you; it just makes it more delicious for them.  They know you're watching, hate it, and can't do a damn thing about it.

Every turn of the screw has a psychological aspect.  If you're not a majority and need a handful of people to push you over that mark, make your opponents choose between their preferred identity and their principles.  Sure, a lot of people won't go for it.  But if even a quarter decide that shutting up with a membership card to the "official" hobby intact is better than giving up their joy in belonging and the investment of decades of their lives...instant majority.  The culture war is being fought in detail now that attrition brings victory.  Or do you think NASCAR was organic?  Just lots of people who have problems with the recent past but also loved the smell of burning rubber on the brickyard?  Each and every identity-hobby they can wormtongue forces a choice on a follower-group who never considered a choice would have to be made.  And they only need a sliver from each to choose their invested identity.  The snowball gets bigger.  

The accountants are telling the bosses that only one group will scorch-earth their business concern.  And it isn't you.  The calculations are that 67% of you will buy anyway, and just complain.  

And there's no hypocrisy here...if I give someone a pretext, and they call it a hypocrisy - it's probably not going to dent my feelings because they're telling me that they bought in and want what they thought they were buying.  It's begging for another turn of the screw.

To go back to my first analogy, you really have to treat this like that significant other who's decided to use you without giving a shit about what you care about.  There's two choices and a forlorn hope.  Either dump them because they deserve it, or; hover over their newsfeed hating-expecting each new pic uploaded (that proves you were right!), or; or keep hoping they'll wake up, and realize how wonderful you really are - how much time you invested and all that.  But it is not giving up to get out.  Especially when they got the deed to the house.  

Look - they can't take gaming away from you.  The OGL saw to that.  But each of you will have to decide which is more important to you; being a gamer in the mainstream, and comfort, or the alternative.

As an educated person, I see the collapse of the hobby in the near future. How responsible are we for what's happening to the gaming industry in general?

#1 Bad parenting. If GenZ and millennials were properly cared for by their parents and taught the difference between right and wrong none of this would be happening. These kids don't know when to stop. They don't have someone to guide them.

#2 Politicizing things you don't understand. The angry youth keeps blaming others for their failures. There's no boogie man!

The solution is simple. Boycott woke work. They can't make a sizable profit off of their selected fanbase. Don't protest, don't say nothing. Simply don't buy their works and before you know it the problem is gone. Nobody's gonna keep publishing a book no one buys. The majority of the world remains conservative, people still rather create things, not destroy them.

Quote from: EOTB;1137321[ATTACH=CONFIG]4629[/ATTACH]

I made my peace a long time ago with exile from the commercial hobby; of the fan aspects of gamerdom.  I'd suggest everyone do the same.  This isn't being defeatist, it's moving to the rebuilding stage.  The judge decreed your ex gets the '63 stingray and the title is signed over.  They don't like the car, they don't need the money, and they're posting a new pic on facebook every day where it's a little closer to the cliff they're going to dump it over just for spite.  Mourning in advance and dreading the sea getting clearer in the background each day isn't going to help you; it just makes it more delicious for them.  They know you're watching, hate it, and can't do a damn thing about it.

Every turn of the screw has a psychological aspect.  If you're not a majority and need a handful of people to push you over that mark, make your opponents choose between their preferred identity and their principles.  Sure, a lot of people won't go for it.  But if even a quarter decide that shutting up with a membership card to the "official" hobby intact is better than giving up their joy in belonging and the investment of decades of their lives...instant majority.  The culture war is being fought in detail now that attrition brings victory.  Or do you think NASCAR was organic?  Just lots of people who have problems with the recent past but also loved the smell of burning rubber on the brickyard?  Each and every identity-hobby they can wormtongue forces a choice on a follower-group who never considered a choice would have to be made.  And they only need a sliver from each to choose their invested identity.  The snowball gets bigger.  

The accountants are telling the bosses that only one group will scorch-earth their business concern.  And it isn't you.  The calculations are that 67% of you will buy anyway, and just complain.  

And there's no hypocrisy here...if I give someone a pretext, and they call it a hypocrisy - it's probably not going to dent my feelings because they're telling me that they bought in and want what they thought they were buying.  It's begging for another turn of the screw.

To go back to my first analogy, you really have to treat this like that significant other who's decided to use you without giving a shit about what you care about.  There's two choices and a forlorn hope.  Either dump them because they deserve it, or; hover over their newsfeed hating-expecting each new pic uploaded (that proves you were right!), or; or keep hoping they'll wake up, and realize how wonderful you really are - how much time you invested and all that.  But it is not giving up to get out.  Especially when they got the deed to the house.  

Look - they can't take gaming away from you.  The OGL saw to that.  But each of you will have to decide which is more important to you; being a gamer in the mainstream, and comfort, or the alternative.

Damn, dude, this post is a masterpiece.

Quote from: Brad;1137175pretty soon they'll be dragging you out of your house and burning your copies of OA. It'll happen.

You're meant to roleplay in a fantasy world, Braddicums, not live in one.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137319My wife is European, but she can't tell you much about medeaval European combat, she doesn't have a sword or a suit of Armor, so I'm not sure she would be the person you'd want to ask.

No sword? Are you sure she is *really* European?

EOTB: Well said! My thoughts have been to silently withdraw to people and communities I can trust. If the rest burns, it burns.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137199When do the copyrights expire? Maybe there ought to be a rule that if the owner of a copyright deliberately suppresses his work, he loses the copyright and it goes into the public domain. The purpose of a copyright is so the owner can earn money off of it, if he refuses to earn money, and simply owns it to suppress it, he should lose the copyright as the purpose of copyrights is not to suppress free speech.

No, that is no longer the purpose of copyright. To wit:

"Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978, subsists from its creation and, except as provided by the following subsections, endures  for  a  term  consisting  of  the  life  of  the  author  and  70  years  after  the  author's death." I might have been actually ok with this back before 1978 when the law stated "...Any copyright, in the first term of which is subsisting on January 1, 1978, shall endure for 28 years from the date it was originally secured." Which meant the copyright only originally lasted for 28 years whether the author was dead or alive, after which the work became public domain, and then anyone could profit from copying the work.

Now though... If the owner is dead he shouldn't be earning any money off of it. everyone says "The heirs should earn money from the estate..." Really? Jr. automatically has the right to leech off mom and dad, even after Mom and Dad are dead. ...Really?"  

Then we get to the really bad part of new copyright established in 2011, and that's when Jr. sells the copyright to "Insert your favorite fascist corporation here..."  [Sony][/Sony]... [Apple][/Apple]... [Samsung][/Samsung]... [IBM][/IBM] who then fucking buries the work for 68 years (Like two generations), then reissues a new work with a new copyright, effective prohibiting the work from ever entering the public domain.

Here is the key difference in old versus new copyright law, and why I no longer respect it. Originally copyright enabled the author to protect his or her work meaning he or she was the exclusive owner, and the only person who should be able to profit from publishing or otherwise displaying his or her work. That work had a relatively short lifetime though, and would enter the public domain after 28 years, provided, of course, the author didn't publish a new work that was in all respects, identical to the original work. Under the old copyright, effectively the author could protect his/her work for his/her lifetime plus up to 28 years, after which, the work became public domain.

With the new copyright law, as I described earlier, the copyright can be held in private ownership, well, ...indefinitely. This benefits the rich oligarchs only of course, as they can buy the copyrights and sit on them, denying fair use to the general public (which the older law, ...ensured.). Essentyially the new law made copyright a permanent and private property instead of a temporary property under commercial law that would revert to public ownership once the copyright expired.

The American people let this new law be passed, effectively agreeing to be ....stupid slaves, ...because the corporations know better.

One day all these fuckers that are stealing from us will be rounded up and shot in the head, unfortunately, I doubt I'll be alive to witness it. They'll get what's coming to them though.

By the way, I just pulled the current edition of copyright law. It is 448 pages long. Originally... it was like a paragraph.

Quote from: EOTB;1137321Look - they can't take gaming away from you.  The OGL saw to that.  But each of you will have to decide which is more important to you; being a gamer in the mainstream, and comfort, or the alternative.

Be a comfortable slave... ...or not. Got it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1137332You're meant to roleplay in a fantasy world, Braddicums, not live in one.

Last year I would have been right with you.

This year? I'm not so sure.