I've never played TSoY (although I've played a D20 Modern game that appropriated the "keys" experience system), but my philosophy is: "The more magic systems, the better."  I may have to check it out for that reason.

http://files.crngames.com/cc/tsoy/book2--world_of_near.html

It's available for free online in its entirety.

Quote from: BrantaiI've never played TSoY (although I've played a D20 Modern game that appropriated the "keys" experience system), but my philosophy is: "The more magic systems, the better."  I may have to check it out for that reason.

I'm of a differing opinion: the less rules on magic, the better.

Or are we even talking about the same thing?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrinehttp://files.crngames.com/cc/tsoy/book2--world_of_near.html

It's available for free online in its entirety.

Thanks!

Quote from: phasmaphobicI'm of a differing opinion: the less rules on magic, the better.

Or are we even talking about the same thing?

I don't think so.  If I'm reading your post correctly, you're talking about the rules in the magic system - so Mage: the Ascension's magic system > D&D's magic system.
I'm talking about the number of magic systems - in Burning Wheel (to use an example off the top of my head), Elves use an entirely different system for magic than humans.

Quote from: BrantaiI don't think so.  If I'm reading your post correctly, you're talking about the rules in the magic system - so Mage: the Ascension's magic system > D&D's magic system.

Aye.  And even better are the systems where magic is as simple as "I chant some words and the goblin's head explodes.  Next!"

Quote from: BrantaiI'm talking about the number of magic systems - in Burning Wheel (to use an example off the top of my head), Elves use an entirely different system for magic than humans.

Gotcha.  I do like how that works, but only in the context of systems that complex.  I think if you're using a system that focuses on a single mechanic, however, then everything should flow with that mechanic.  That's something I dislike about D20 - it uses the "roll d20 to see if you succeed" standard for everything except magic, which for some reason held onto the stale old fire-and-forget system from the days before.

The d20 mechanic is used in the magic system to determine the success of individual spells (saving throws, craft checks). Almost all special abilities in D&D follow the same logic, unless they involve attack rolls. Getting a caster to roll instead of the target would make things unnecessarily complex and involve a level of information sharing between DMs and PCs that D&D does not normally facilitate ("What's his saving throw mod so I can subtract it from my casting roll?" "+5" "Oh, I didn't know he was that low-level. Move in for the kill chums!")

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe d20 mechanic is used in the magic system to determine the success of individual spells (saving throws, craft checks). Almost all special abilities in D&D follow the same logic, unless they involve attack rolls. Getting a caster to roll instead of the target would make things unnecessarily complex and involve a level of information sharing between DMs and PCs that D&D does not normally facilitate ("What's his saving throw mod so I can subtract it from my casting roll?" "+5" "Oh, I didn't know he was that low-level. Move in for the kill chums!")

Really?  Hmmmm.

I think if you did to saving throws what is done to Armor class (fix it at level-variable amounts), then you wouldn't have that problem at all.  Then it's no different from attacking, and you don't have to tell them a damn thing.

Well, the trick is that the level-dependency of that kind of thing is itself a key piece of information in D&D - knowing that my opponent is a 5th level wizard instead of a 12th level wizard is very important. If the target rolls instead of me, the information given to the PCs can be controlled at a level the DM finds appropriate.

The other thing is that a casting roll would take much longer than a saving throw. Calculating attack rolls with all the modifiers on them and the target's AC is regularly put forth as one of the biggest hassles in D&D combat (I personally precalculate all this stuff with clearly labeled modifiers to speed things up, but I am the exception, not the rule, even in my own group). It's right up there with attacks of opportunity.

A casting roll would follow the same pattern and slow things down without really offering a great benefit in exchange. Don't forget that you'd have to do it for every spell-like, supernatural, and item-based ability as well. That could mean a drastic explosion in the number of rolls and their complexity for high level adventurers.

As well, analogues already exist for cases where the effectiveness of the casting is necessary - the caster level check (which I find too simple, personally - I prefer Arcana Unearthed's addition of a caster power level check). The CLC (CL+d20) allows us to compare the relative power levels of spellcasters, but without having to calculate a target number that's anywhere near as complex as AC.

CLCs and saving throws, two simple checks, are much faster to resolve. I can see why one would want a casting roll, but in D&D as it currently stands, it's simply not viable. Other d20 variants that involve completely reworking the magic system are much better candidates for such a roll (Iron Heroes, frex).

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Yes, but I haven't played it.  It didn't grab me, but maybe I need to look at it again?

It's the mechanics that are cool.  It really needs to be seen in play.  I traded for my copy, didn't touch it for three months.  Just looked, meh.  Read it for a lark to run it, meh.  Ran it and HOLY CRAPOLA!

It was really, really cool in play.

Quote from: jrientsWhat happened is that a lot of people who feel completely satisfied with the Old Ways discovered a place where they aren't considered fossils.

Yes, and it has an obvious advantage: here, I don't have to prove it in every fucking thread that YES, my tastes are completely legitimate and NO, I am not having them because of nostalgia. Same reason I frequent Dragonsfoot and other grognard hangouts. Now get off my lawn! :pundit: