I'm a fan of CoC, and have run several successful campaigns, mini-campaigns, and one-shots of the game, set both in the "20s" (1920s-1940s) and the "modern" (1990s-2011) eras.
I'm also an historian, and have run very successful historical campaigns of all kinds, including not one but two very long-term campaigns set in the Roman Empire, one of my areas of academic specialty.
So you'd think something like Cthulhu Invictus would be a natural fit for me. For my part, I like the concept, and yet, some of my players who are both rabid fans of CoC and happy veterans of one of my roman campaigns have expressed zero interest in playing in that era.
There are two general arguments why: the first is not so interesting, being simply that they think that it would just be too deadly, having to go up against mythos creatures without the benefit of modern (or at least 20th century) firepower.
But the second one is the one that got me thinking: at least one of my players made the point that "it wouldn't really be Cthulhu". Because, he argued, the whole essence of the Mythos is that it drives men to madness because humanity has gotten to the point (by the 18th or 19th century onward) of believing in a basically rational world, and the Mythos throws that out the window, and that's the essence of what's maddening about it.
They argue that it wouldn't make sense to them, in a pre-modern world, for the same effects to take place.
What do people think about that?
RPGpundit
You'd need to adjust the sanity mechanic, sure.
I disagree about what makes the mythos so horrible. I think it has more to do with the relatively insignificant place mankind ends up with in the universe when viewed from the perspective of science; whereas with Christianity and some other religions, the Earth and, by extension, mankind are at the focus of god's attention. Evolution reduces humans to animals and from an astronomical viewpoint the earth is just a mote of dust floating in the void. It's the very rationality of the universe that is the source of the horror. I mean, isn't that what young Earth Creationism is all about, more or less, returning humans to their rightful place at the center of things?
Whatever, flame on; I don't know shit about shit.
Anyway, though, for me the reason CoC doesn't work the same* so much in past periods is that it kind of turns into sword and sorcery.
*I think it works fine, just different; you get Conan instead of Inspector Legrasse.
I think he does have a point, though Aos also has a salient point here. The power of the Mythos has a sanity shattering device does not necessitate the idea of reason, or a scientific view of the world, in order to function. In fact, reason and science become dangerous for mankind because they uncover the nature of the cosmos around humanity, and its insignificance at the scale of the universe and beyond. Any alternate view of humankind in a given society that would give it illusions of truth could basically provide the same background opportunities. In a medieval world where society revolves around the Church and the feudal order of the world, the same sort of terror could be achieved when the Mythos threatens to reveal the Christian God and His promise as a fraud of cosmic proportions.
The Roman world suffers from the same type of hubris, where it represents the sophisticated, civilized force against the hordes of primitive barbarians, a bastion of everlasting order in an ever-shifting world. The height of this hubris, in direct correlation with the decadence of the Roman world, could offer a very interesting setting for Cthulhian horrors. You could even mix it up in the late stages of the Empire's disintegration, with feuds between Christian and Pagan Emperors, some of them, or maybe their aids, maybe aware of the existence of the Great Old Ones...
I am currently watching a terrible B movie called the Last Lovecraft so this is quite apt.
Personally I found when we moved to Dreamlands in a Cthulhu campaign it stopped working. We turned from people to fantasy heroes we armed up and carried swords which was for an actor, his valet, a player and a history professor pretty much out of character. I think Rome would have the same effect.
For me CoC works because you have ordinary people in a horror scenario. Once the PCs make up Romans they will be gladiators, generals, praetorian guards etc and rather than investigating and running awy they will be chopping through the Deep Ones like they were fighting orcs in a 4E game.
Leave 4e in the 4e threads, please.
I don;t thin you'd need to limit yourself as far as character types go in the Roman era any more than you would in a modern game. Sure the Romans didn't have IT guys and what not, but they has scribes and poets and scholars and engineers and merchants and slave and whores and all sorts of other other shit. You don't have to turn the game in to a Roman version of Delta Green, after all.
Quote from: Aos;443854Leave 4e in the 4e threads, please.
I don;t thin you'd need to limit yourself as far as character types go in the Roman era any more than you would in a modern game. Sure the Romans didn't have IT guys and what not, but they has scribes and poets and scholars and engineers and merchants and slave and whores and all sorts of other other shit. You don't have to turn the game in to a Roman version of Delta Green, after all.
Totally. If the basic game presented you with sample occupations like praetorian guards and senators, then it would fail to convey an accurate image of the Roman world in the first place, from an everyday, median perspective. If you've got occupations like artists, dilettantes and cops in 1920s Cthulhu, I'd expect stuff like artists, dilettantes, landowners, soldiers, slaves and the like, in occupations. After as a Keeper you can just say "no soldiers in my game" just like you can say "no cops in this game, please."
I am sure the Romans had a few basic assumptions of the world and their place in it that could be turned on its head with a little well applied Mythos horror.
Cities were pretty important to the Roman mind if I recall. Being the mother of all cities, perhaps like Punktown in Jeffrey Thomas's novel Monstrocity (http://www.amazon.com/Monstrocity-Jeffrey-Thomas/dp/1894815629), Rome is more than she appears to be.
Family and ancestry were important. Perhaps Rome's catacombs are filled with ravenous ghouls, once former members of her most important families. Because of the custom of cremating the dead they relay on the copses of gladiatorial combatants surreptitiously brought to them by a cult of ancestor/ghoul worshipers that reaches into the highest levels of the empire à la Clive Barker's The Midnight Meat Train.
Imagine if Suetonius had met and interviewed Augustus in the middle of a repast of tomb carrion.:)
I am obviously not an expert and I have not really given a Cthulhu Invictus campaign much though. But using the Mythos to attack Roman concepts of Family, Identity, Honor, Nobility, The Roman passion for power, etc., seems a good place to start.
Quote from: Aos;443854Leave 4e in the 4e threads, please.
I don;t thin you'd need to limit yourself as far as character types go in the Roman era any more than you would in a modern game. Sure the Romans didn't have IT guys and what not, but they has scribes and poets and scholars and engineers and merchants and slave and whores and all sorts of other other shit. You don't have to turn the game in to a Roman version of Delta Green, after all.
No you wouldn't have to but I would be afraid that that woudl be what would happen
Quote from: Aos;443841...
*I think it works fine, just different; you get Conan instead of Inspector Legrasse.
I wouldn't say Conan so much as
Bran Mak Morn. :)
But yeah,
Cthulhu Invictus has a much stronger 'Howardian' feel to it than 'Lovecraftian'. And that is perfectly fine (if that's what you want). It can be just as creepy, etc., as CoC set during the 1920s.
I would very strongly recommend R. E. Howard's Bran Mak Morn story, "
The Worms of the Earth," to anyone interested in running a CoC game set during the Roman era. It
is a Roman Cthulhu Mythos story.
The genre works best in an enlightened age, the more modern and rational the better. I see your friends point, and agree. If there are too many superstitions, horrors or other fantastic elements around, the Cthulhu mythos loses some of it's terror.
Quote from: Benoist;443845Aos also has a salient point
Those words! Oh those words!
My brain! It hurts! :)
Quote from: GoOrange;443883If there are too many superstitions, horrors or other fantastic elements around, the Cthulhu mythos loses some of it's terror.
I agree.
I was thinking that what could more or less resolve this would be to switch from just having a straight sanity mechanic to having a "rationality/irrationality" mechanic in the style of the spanish game Aquelarre.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;443927I was thinking that what could more or less resolve this would be to switch from just having a straight sanity mechanic to having a "rationality/irrationality" mechanic in the style of the spanish game Aquelarre.
RPGPundit
How does that mechanic work?
Like others have said, I think you'd have to redirect the sanity blasting horror to a context that would horrify people of that era...
But I don't think that just because someone believes in gods and all sorts of supernatural creatures... is full of superstition... means they are ready and able to meet such horrors in the flesh. Maybe some folks believed there were gorgons and minotaurs out there... but no one ever saw one in the flesh.
I've got friends who believe in angels, but I'm guessing they'd shit themselves if they ever actually saw one... in fact believing in angels, and what they can do/have done... probably adds to the fear (where I might just think it's a space alien... with no particular context/powers/history. I'd probably still shit myself though).
It's similar to the argument I hear that modern people wouldn't be as frightened by Mythos critters because we've all seen myriad CGI horrors on movie screens... which I think is bullshit.
Watching a war movie doesn't prepare you for being in a firefight, seeing movie gore doesn't equate with seeing a real corpse or having the friend next to you eviscerated. Burning offerings at an effigy of Diana doesn't mean you're prepared when she shows up at the front door.
There's also a lot to be said for the horrors that men do... and while those were grittier times I'm sure there are ways to have cultists leave the common tenants of humanity behind and do outre stuff that is upsetting to the average PC man on the street... break the taboos of the time.
As long as the players were aware of those taboos... saw them as an active part of the setting... lived in that skin a bit before having it ripped off.
Maybe it would be as simple as importing some of our modern outlook into the ancient cultists. A modern man would be alienated, confused, disturbed by things he'd find in ancient Rome... he might never fully acclimate... just as an ancient roman in our world might be quite disturbed, at least for a while.
Also... it's not just the monsters, blood and guts... big chunks of the Mythos are from 'outside'... they don't belong... they deform our reality just by being here. Madness comes on just by being around them... having your mind stretched/twisted along odd dimensions. They are 'wrong', they places they inhabit become 'wrong'.
If you've ever read Thomas Ligotti, or the comic series Uzumaki (or seen the truncated movie version)... there's not a lot in the way of overt monsters... but the things people do... the way their minds are effected... they way reality bends and molds itself to those 'others'... is pretty damn weird and disturbing. (you can read Uzumaki online here (http://read.mangashare.com/Uzumaki/manga.html))
Quote from: Simlasa;443934It's similar to the argument I hear that modern people wouldn't be as frightened by Mythos critters because we've all seen myriad CGI horrors on movie screens... which I think is bullshit.
Watching a war movie doesn't prepare you for being in a firefight, seeing movie gore doesn't equate with seeing a real corpse or having the friend next to you eviscerated.
It's like seeing stuff like hurricanes, powerful storms, floods, tsunamis, earthquake etc. You can see some of those in movies with CGI, as well as "the real thing" by watching news networks. Watching the pictures has NOTHING to do with actually living through any one of those calamities in the flesh, for real, being afraid for your life, the integrity of your house, your loved ones, being in the dark... yes. Even "mundane" things like darkness still hold power over our psyches. We always have street lights and TVs and luminous bullshit around us. Now take ALL that away. Say you live in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, and the power goes out for a few days. And there are wolves around. And the dogs bark at the woods. Not a star to be seen. The sound of the waves in the distance. Oh yeah mate. That grabs your imagination, that's for sure.
What if you take it the other direction, to the future? Would Cthulhu critters be as imposing and dangerous to, say, the Federation? I would think so, but it might be trickier to keep the same level of impending doom, horror, and suspense when you have tricorders that can tell you when someone moved through a field 8 hours before by the displacement of air molecules.
A good example of this, I think, would be "Forbidden Planet" - many parts feel kinda mythos-y to me. Maybe just have the creature not be generated from super-technology, but just "be".
Quote from: RPGPundit;443927I was thinking that what could more or less resolve this would be to switch from just having a straight sanity mechanic to having a "rationality/irrationality" mechanic in the style of the spanish game Aquelarre.
RPGPundit
Sounds interesting. Maybe for characters drawn from the Greek educated higher classes.
I think a Sanity/Stability mechanic would work well. Doesn't the French edition of CoC edition use one?
Quote from: Simlasa;443934Like others have said, I think you'd have to redirect the sanity blasting horror to a context that would horrify people of that era...
But I don't think that just because someone believes in gods and all sorts of supernatural creatures... is full of superstition... means they are ready and able to meet such horrors in the flesh. ...
I agree. That a superstitious person would somehow be inured to the horrors of the supernatural seems implausible. Though if it were true Psychic Fairs and Conspiracy Conventions maybe the safest places to be when the Old Ones return.:)
The more I think about it the more Cthulhu Invictus makes sense. When Romans have had their dominance of and significance in the world questioned they typically did not reacted well.
Quote from: Benoist;443936... Say you live in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, and the power goes out for a few days. And there are wolves around. And the dogs bark at the woods. Not a star to be seen. The sound of the waves in the distance. Oh yeah mate. That grabs your imagination, that's for sure.
Sounds like home. Except my dogs bark at the woods for a few minutes then run inside, under the bed whimpering. My outhouse is in the same woods, which is why I never go to the bathroom without a shotgun.:)
Quote from: hanszurcher;443953Sounds like home. Except my dogs bark at the woods for a few minutes then run inside, under the bed whimpering. My outhouse is in the same woods, which is why I never go to the bathroom without a shotgun.:)
I'm first generation off the farm, and did a fair share of farm time as a kid; I yern for the country life, but I must admit, I do not miss outhouses!
Quote from: hanszurcher;443953Sounds like home. Except my dogs bark at the woods for a few minutes then run inside, under the bed whimpering. My outhouse is in the same woods, which is why I never go to the bathroom without a shotgun.:)
I can understand that. I was actually describing the place where I live. :)
Richard L Tierney has done a whole series of mythos stories based in the Roman period of and around the biblical character of Simon Magus. These are an excellent example of how mythos horror can be transferred to differing historical periods. Also, the idea of Jesus as a Wilbur Whately-esque half human son of Yog Sothoth is outstanding.
Hello all, new poster here!
I think you can make a case for Cthulhu in the pre-rational era. The terror really comes from "everything you think is true about the universe isn't" and "you aren't as important as you think you are." That can completely be said to be true during the Roman era. Imagine being a Roman, growing up trusting that there are gods, that proper behavior is required to have a harmonious relationship, and (if you're a Stoic, anyway) that there is some sort of moral order to the universe. I'm sure that when it's discovered that almost all those things are lies, that can be just as sanity busting, no? Loss of sanity is really about your world view being shattered as it becomes clearer it doesn't match reality.
Even in the 1920s or the modern world, most people believe in God, and it's -that- part of them that is most psychologically susceptible to a Lovecraftian revelation.
Quote from: Eugene;444034Even in the 1920s or the modern world, most people believe in God, and it's -that- part of them that is most psychologically susceptible to a Lovecraftian revelation.
Even if a person has no specific beliefs it's hard to let go of the idea that there some sort of meaning and purpose to our lives... to human existence and the universe in general.
But how do you use the Mythos to show that absence of ultimate truth to people who have grown up surrounded by the certainty of meaning? How do you show a religious man that the monsters aren't merely 'demons'?... terrifying, but in the long run reinforcing his faith... rather than tearing it apart?
I'm thinking some scenario like in 'The Exorcist'... where the younger priest... fighting a crisis in faith... has that faith bolstered by witnessing an actual instance of possession.
Would he have reacted differently if the thing inside the girl had been 'Bob' from Twin Peaks? Or if instead of doing supernatural magic tricks and having a potty-mouth it had explained to him (in a rational if condescending manner) how everything he believed was a lie?
IIRC there was a bit of outrage in the 'christian' community wayback when over the scene in Dragonslayer where the priest confronts the dragon with prayers and upraised crucifix and gets barbecued for his troubles.
Quote from: Eugene;444034Hello all, new poster here!
I think you can make a case for Cthulhu in the pre-rational era. The terror really comes from "everything you think is true about the universe isn't" and "you aren't as important as you think you are." That can completely be said to be true during the Roman era. Imagine being a Roman, growing up trusting that there are gods, that proper behavior is required to have a harmonious relationship, and (if you're a Stoic, anyway) that there is some sort of moral order to the universe. I'm sure that when it's discovered that almost all those things are lies, that can be just as sanity busting, no? Loss of sanity is really about your world view being shattered as it becomes clearer it doesn't match reality.
Even in the 1920s or the modern world, most people believe in God, and it's -that- part of them that is most psychologically susceptible to a Lovecraftian revelation.
Welcome, Eugene! Good post! :)
Quote from: Simlasa;444043But how do you use the Mythos to show that absence of ultimate truth to people who have grown up surrounded by the certainty of meaning? How do you show a religious man that the monsters aren't merely 'demons'?... terrifying, but in the long run reinforcing his faith... rather than tearing it apart?
It's not just the demons. It's the combination of things. It's being confronted to the demons, seeing your friends becoming mad, having your own thought processes and logic and belief falling apart on the long run. It's the fact that you cannot slaughter these demons, you cannot kill the dragon like St. George: in the end, you are going to LOSE. And you know it. There's no resisting it. Evil is everywhere. This makes the whole universe a sick joke. This leads to the dreadful revelation, some horrible moment where one realizes that there is no hope, there is no race chosen from God, the earth is not a garden we are tending to... it is all ashes to ashes, with nothing valuable in between.
It's just one way to react to this. Now, I think it's really important to not stereotype all atheists as one category with a single set of answers, and likewise with religious people. Each religious person will find his or her own answers, or react differently to the lack of answers.
Quote from: Eugene;444034Hello all, new poster here!
I think you can make a case for Cthulhu in the pre-rational era. The terror really comes from "everything you think is true about the universe isn't" and "you aren't as important as you think you are." That can completely be said to be true during the Roman era. Imagine being a Roman, growing up trusting that there are gods, that proper behavior is required to have a harmonious relationship, and (if you're a Stoic, anyway) that there is some sort of moral order to the universe. I'm sure that when it's discovered that almost all those things are lies, that can be just as sanity busting, no? Loss of sanity is really about your world view being shattered as it becomes clearer it doesn't match reality.
Even in the 1920s or the modern world, most people believe in God, and it's -that- part of them that is most psychologically susceptible to a Lovecraftian revelation.
A lot of good points here. I was thinking also that, at least within recorded history roman religion is pretty abstract and also pragmatic. Even though a roman person might believe in the presence of the divine as part of the way things work, systems of belief popular among romans tend to be those that understand divine influence as something that manifest as the way the world works every day. romans were superstitious people, and treated with importance even rituals that the most learned had next to no understanding the reasoning behind, but in my opinion a roman is just not going to thing zeus is going to show up in the air and start shooting thunderbolts at anyone; the weather that is part of the natural process is the way that divine presence works. if you look at the discussion in Nature of the Gods by cicero you have thinkers from very different philosophical traditions but they are all understanding the divine pretty much through reason and the evidence of the lovecraftian mythos is just not compatible with those world views.
part of the horror of the mythos is that your knowledge is petty, your idea of how the world works is no defense or comfort against the way things are, whether it is epicurean physics or quantum physics, the mythos knowledge is a mocking affront to it; it's wrong, it doesn't help you, and drooling inbred retards living in huts are better equipped to "deal" with the way things really work than you are. and more learning makes you more fucked. Stoicism for example assumes a pervasive logic to the universal system - the mythos replaces that with "idiot chaos."
Quote from: Simlasa;444043But how do you use the Mythos to show that absence of ultimate truth to people who have grown up surrounded by the certainty of meaning? How do you show a religious man that the monsters aren't merely 'demons'?... terrifying, but in the long run reinforcing his faith... rather than tearing it apart?
I think whether you have a stoic who accepts a certain meaning of life or an epicure who accepts a kind of meaninglessness, the rub is that confronted with an outright mythos entity the fact that it's there invalidates the stability of belief or reason. it's not a matter of
showing someone it isn't "just a demon," once it's there, it obviously isn't, and the human automatically recognizes that, hence the SAN roll. HPL describes hardcore mythos entities in a roundabout way and the point is that direct comparison to something familiar fails it - if the party encounters one of the race of cthulhu, remember it's not the same thing as seeing a comparably sized octopus, like what might end up on someone's dinner plate writ large, it's obviously made of matter that recognizably doesn't behave like matter, etc. the GMs description of course can't cause the SAN loss - but don't forget that something there is.
Where the problem lies in not that the roman character/mindset doesn't interface with the principles of lovecraftian horror, but, I suspect, that players are likely to be thinking not of the historical and mundane roman world, but basically of a swords and sandals fantasy setting full of sorceresses and stop motion gods. you could probably get around this by a frank DM briefing, and it would be helpful to remember that the roman priests, etc. are not going to be loaded with magic spells and charms any more than the archdiocese of new york are going to be in a 20's campaign - they will be functionally more similar to the secular authorities really.
Also, while it might be a more traditional CoC campaign if the PCs are mostly merchants and philosophers and scribes, I don't think it's a real problem if the PCs are, say, a gladiator, a legionary, a bandit, and a praetorian any more than if the 20's party are a boxer, a WWI vet, a gangster, and a treasury agent. Being decent with swords, shields, and javelins might help against cultists and ghouls and deep ones, but do shotguns and dynamite and pickup trucks, things the PCs
won't have, and the authorities are going to be just as ignorant and unhelpful in the modern day. the emperor Nero isn't actually a god-king any more than Warren G. Harding...
Quote from: Cole;444058Where the problem lies in not that the roman character/mindset doesn't interface with the principles of lovecraftian horror, but, I suspect, that players are likely to be thinking not of the historical and mundane roman world, but basically of a swords and sandals fantasy setting full of sorceresses and stop motion gods.
This seems likely to me.
I'd be tempted to start off with some mundane city adventure... dealing with local criminals (or doing local crimes), family honor or some small political upheaval... something to establish what 'normal' is before letting the 'strange' loose.
I'm thinking the big Rome book for BRP would also be handy for guys like me that don't have much of a handle on the period except for watching I Claudius and the HBO series.
Quote from: Simlasa;444065This seems likely to me.
I'd be tempted to start off with some mundane city adventure... dealing with local criminals (or doing local crimes), family honor or some small political upheaval... something to establish what 'normal' is before letting the 'strange' loose.
I'm thinking the big Rome book for BRP would also be handy for guys like me that don't have much of a handle on the period except for watching I Claudius and the HBO series.
I have only skimmed it but it seems pretty good.
Also there's the "small" matter that unlike "the 1920's" "Rome" is certainly not one decade. :)
Quote from: Akrasia;443875I would very strongly recommend R. E. Howard's Bran Mak Morn story, "The Worms of the Earth," to anyone interested in running a CoC game set during the Roman era. It is a Roman Cthulhu Mythos story.
One of my favorite REH stories! It strikes an almost perfect balance between Lovecraftian horror and Howardian S&S. Heartily seconded.
Quote from: Eugene;444034Hello all, new poster here!
I think you can make a case for Cthulhu in the pre-rational era. The terror really comes from "everything you think is true about the universe isn't" and "you aren't as important as you think you are." That can completely be said to be true during the Roman era.
Welcome, Eugene! Good post.
This is sort of how I handled my Medieval Cthulhu game. "Where is your God now?" was the sort of feeling I tried to evoke. Setting it in an isolated monastery only made it easier, of course...
Quote from: The Butcher;444107One of my favorite REH stories! It strikes an almost perfect balance between Lovecraftian horror and Howardian S&S. Heartily seconded.
Phew! I was starting to think that I was the only one who had read any of REH's Bran Mak Morn tales here. :)
Quote from: Simlasa;444065I'm thinking the big Rome book for BRP would also be handy for guys like me that don't have much of a handle on the period except for watching I Claudius and the HBO series.
That book is quite excellent. Overwhelming, really.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the BRP
Rome book describes the late Republic (the period just before Caesar), whereas Chaosium's
Cthulhu Invictus focuses on the early Imperial period (about a century after Caesar, iirc).
Quote from: Aos;443970I'm first generation off the farm, and did a fair share of farm time as a kid; I yern for the country life, but I must admit, I do not miss outhouses!
Outhouses help cultivate a healthy respect for spiders.;)
Quote from: Akrasia;444158Phew! I was starting to think that I was the only one who had read any of REH's Bran Mak Morn tales here. :)
Del Rey collected all of Howard's horror stories in one book appropriately titled The Horror Stories of Robert E. Howard (http://www.amazon.com/Horror-Stories-Robert-Howard/dp/0345490207/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299399420&sr=1-1).
Worms of the Earth is my favorite Bran Mak Morn tale and one of Howard's best.
Enough with all the regurgitated BS about Lovecraftian horror being this existential shit about man's place in a meaningless cosmos. At this point it's just a forum meme.
CoC is a cheesy horror game about creepy monsters and weird cults, and there ain't nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: RPGPundit;443927I was thinking that what could more or less resolve this would be to switch from just having a straight sanity mechanic to having a "rationality/irrationality" mechanic in the style of the spanish game Aquelarre.
RPGPundit
I was going over my old school notes on Seneca's tragedies, seemed like a good place to go for some inspiration, and some sort of rationality/irrationality mechanic kinda makes sense.
Would you expand a little more on your idea?
Quote from: Eugene;444034Hello all, new poster here!
I think you can make a case for Cthulhu in the pre-rational era. The terror really comes from "everything you think is true about the universe isn't" and "you aren't as important as you think you are." That can completely be said to be true during the Roman era. Imagine being a Roman, growing up trusting that there are gods, that proper behavior is required to have a harmonious relationship, and (if you're a Stoic, anyway) that there is some sort of moral order to the universe. I'm sure that when it's discovered that almost all those things are lies, that can be just as sanity busting, no? Loss of sanity is really about your world view being shattered as it becomes clearer it doesn't match reality.
Even in the 1920s or the modern world, most people believe in God, and it's -that- part of them that is most psychologically susceptible to a Lovecraftian revelation.
Yes, I think that's a very reasoned argument. I'll have to see what my players respond to that.
Welcome to theRPGsite, Eugene!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Akrasia;444160That book is quite excellent. Overwhelming, really.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the BRP Rome book describes the late Republic (the period just before Caesar), whereas Chaosium's Cthulhu Invictus focuses on the early Imperial period (about a century after Caesar, iirc).
Why oh WHY is it that so many rpg products about Rome choose to focus on the Republican period, which in comparison with the Empire is positively fucking DULL as far as the opportunities for playing both war, action-adventure, and intrigue. The only thing that the Republic was better at may have been politics, and there's plenty of that in the Empire too.
I would like to see an RPG product aimed at the days of Caligula, the Year of the Four Emperors, the era of the Five Good Emperors, Commodus, the Severans, the Crisis of the Third Century, or Diocletian and the Tetrarchy (the last desperate true attempt to save Rome, rather than Constantine who just euthanized it)! But no, instead, every single RPG product on Rome focuses on Julius or earlier and acts as though Imperial Rome, which is
the period that made Rome unforgettable to human history, was just the "boring stuff that happens later with no RP potential".
Fuck.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Lorrraine;443928How does that mechanic work?
Well, basically, you had two opposed attributes: Rationality and irrationality. They generally were negatively co-related to each other, so that if one was 30, the other was 70; if one was 40 the other was 60, etc. The more "civilized" you are, the more educated or cultured, the more likely you were to be mostly Rational, but that wasn't a hard and fast rule.
When you rolled rationality and failed (from seeing something that shatters the rational world view) you would lose the one and gain the other. Having a high rationality gave you some protection against supernatural effects. On the other hand, a high irrationality could help you in using magic.
That's just from memory, though, so if there's someone with the game on hand or who has more experience than me they may be able to explain it better.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;444392I would like to see an RPG product aimed at the days of Caligula, the Year of the Four Emperors, the era of the Five Good Emperors, Commodus, the Severans, the Crisis of the Third Century, or Diocletian and the Tetrarchy (the last desperate true attempt to save Rome, rather than Constantine who just euthanized it)! But no, instead, every single RPG product on Rome focuses on Julius or earlier and acts as though Imperial Rome, which is the period that made Rome unforgettable to human history, was just the "boring stuff that happens later with no RP potential".
Seconded. This is the epoch in which most great old school epic sword-and-sandal movies were set, and it's puzzling to see it mostly ignored by Ancient Roman settings for RPGs.
Fvlminata: Armed With Lightning (http://www.fvlminata.com/) is the only exception that springs to mind.
Quote from: RPGPundit;444392I would like to see an RPG product aimed at the days of Caligula, the Year of the Four Emperors, the era of the Five Good Emperors, Commodus, the Severans, the Crisis of the Third Century, or Diocletian and the Tetrarchy (the last desperate true attempt to save Rome, rather than Constantine who just euthanized it)! But no, instead, every single RPG product on Rome focuses on Julius or earlier and acts as though Imperial Rome, which is the period that made Rome unforgettable to human history, was just the "boring stuff that happens later with no RP potential".
Fuck.
Jesus Christ. Do I agree with that sentiment. Well said.
Quote from: Eugene;444034Hello all, new poster here!
By the way: careful with that axe, mate. ;)
I just HAD to say it. :D
Quote from: Akrasia;443875I wouldn't say Conan so much as Bran Mak Morn. :)
But yeah, Cthulhu Invictus has a much stronger 'Howardian' feel to it than 'Lovecraftian'. And that is perfectly fine (if that's what you want). It can be just as creepy, etc., as CoC set during the 1920s.
I would very strongly recommend R. E. Howard's Bran Mak Morn story, "The Worms of the Earth," to anyone interested in running a CoC game set during the Roman era. It is a Roman Cthulhu Mythos story.
Worms of the Earth is absolutely brilliant. For me,
The Dark Man is another favorite BMM tale, even if Bran is more of a symbol than an actual character. I've said it on another forum, and it bears repeating here: If you consider yourself a Robert E. Howard fan, and you've limited yourself to what you conceive to be his finest works, the Conan tales, then you are doing yourself a disservice. The Bran Mak Morn tales can create a greater appreciation for the Conan yarns, because they flesh out Howard's conception of the Picts in ways vaguely touched upon in
Beyond the Black River and
Wolves at the Border; i.e. the rise and degeneration of the Pictish culture (Howard's fantasy version of it, of course). I have a great appreciation for Howard's Bran Mak Morn tales, and I wish they garnered more attention.
I am a huge fan of sword & sorcery literature, as well as the Cthulhu Mythos. I have indulged my fandom by mixing them as often as I can. One of the better examples of this is a Viking Age game I ran a while back. I have used the NEMESIS system, Castles & Crusades, Labyrinth Lord, the D6 System and BRP for various games in this vein. I have had a lot of success and fun along the way. For those interested, here are a few setting notes:
Viking Age Orkney and Northern Scotland (http://swordandsanity.blogspot.com/2009/10/dark-corners-of-adventure-viking-age_27.html)
Viking Age Orkney and Northern Scotland (Addendum Part I) (http://swordandsanity.blogspot.com/2009/10/dark-corners-of-adventure-viking-age_27.html)
Viking Age Orkney and Northern Scotland (Addendum Part II) (http://swordandsanity.blogspot.com/2009/11/dark-corners-of-adventure-viking-age.html)
I believe most fantasy roleplaying systems can handle this kind of game right out of the gate, as long as the right approach is taken. Here is an article I wrote explaining how I prefer to handle fear and sanity when using D&D or a retro-clone for this style of play:
Spelling Out Horror and Sanity In Fantasy Roleplaying (http://swordandsanity.blogspot.com/2010/01/spelling-out-horror-and-sanity-in.html)
One positive thing about using a fantasy roleplaying system as opposed to using Call of Cthulhu is that the players can create characters and begin play without ever knowing it is going to be a Mythos style game. The game master is not obligated to reveal this to the players. Only through play do they realize there are cosmic level horrors running about, and it is up to them to adjust their style of play accordingly. If Call of Cthulhu was sitting on the table at the time of character creation a whole different attitude is adopted by the players, and there is no real sense of danger once the horror is revealed. This will seem underhanded by some, but I have used this technique with a couple of different groups and it was very effective. And in the end everyone had fun with the curve ball I threw them, which is the point in the first place.
As others have stated earlier, there are several excellent example of Lovecraft infused sword & sorcery, mainly the Bran Mak Morn stories by Howard, and the Simon of Gitta stories by Tierney. I bought a copy of Cthulhu Invictus and it is an excellent sourcebook for anyone interested in playing a Lovecraftian game in an archaic age. Oddly enough, I was not as impressed with Cthulhu Dark Ages...
Thanks,
Shane
Quote from: RPGPundit;444393Well, basically, you had two opposed attributes: Rationality and irrationality. They generally were negatively co-related to each other, so that if one was 30, the other was 70; if one was 40 the other was 60, etc. The more "civilized" you are, the more educated or cultured, the more likely you were to be mostly Rational, but that wasn't a hard and fast rule.
When you rolled rationality and failed (from seeing something that shatters the rational world view) you would lose the one and gain the other. Having a high rationality gave you some protection against supernatural effects. On the other hand, a high irrationality could help you in using magic.
That's just from memory, though, so if there's someone with the game on hand or who has more experience than me they may be able to explain it better.
RPGPundit
Rationality/irrationality sounds a lot like
Sanity/Cthulhu Mythos, I think the original mechanic would probably be best kept.
I am thinking about using the
Composure mechanic from the French
L'Appel de Cthulhu 6th Edition. Composure acts as a sort of Sanity Armour, absorbing SAN damage.
The Composure mechanic could be a benefit of an
Allegiance (Gold Book, p.315) to philosophical schools of thought, institutions, beliefs, e.g., Stoicism, Glory of Rome, the Ninth Legion, Roman honor. A sort of Pillar of Sanity.
I like this idea because it appears modular, just adding to the Rules as Written.
Not being a regular tweaker of rules, it will probably take me some time to hammer the kinks out. Any advice welcome.
Quote from: RPGPundit;444392Why oh WHY is it that so many rpg products about Rome choose to focus on the Republican period,
RPGPundit
I think part of it is that then you can play a Gaul fighting the Romans.
Here's an idea - combine the Roman Cthulhu idea with the post by Benoist about the "chemical attack" the Persians supposedly used. Think about it - two armies, fighting a seige, they begin digging underground and then... well, you know about those Things Man Was Not Meant To Know... they pop up at the most inconvenient times...
Quote from: Werekoala;444740Here's an idea - combine the Roman Cthulhu idea with the post by Benoist about the "chemical attack" the Persians supposedly used. Think about it - two armies, fighting a seige, they begin digging underground and then... well, you know about those Things Man Was Not Meant To Know... they pop up at the most inconvenient times...
Awesome. :D
Quote from: danbuter;444738I think part of it is that then you can play a Gaul fighting the Romans.
Which has no appeal to me at all. Plus there were plenty of barbarians fighting the romans throughout the Imperial period, including the Britons, who were basically gauls.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;444392Why oh WHY is it that so many rpg products about Rome choose to focus on the Republican period, which in comparison with the Empire is positively fucking DULL as far as the opportunities for playing both war, action-adventure, and intrigue...
Chaosium's
Cthulhu Invictus is set during the Empire (first century, iirc).
Quote from: Akrasia;445027Chaosium's Cthulhu Invictus is set during the Empire (first century, iirc).
Yes it is, that's one of the things I liked it about it! I would like to run the Roman answer to "delta green" setting it during the time of Hadrian and having a secret society ("the XIII") within the frumentari that are dedicated to dealing with the Empire's mythos problems.
RPGPundit