TheRPGSite

So I'm running Dungeon World. This is a game which simply doesn't have rules for some things that other games do, like perception and initiative. It also doesn't have an easily-adaptable "core mechanic"; every move is there for a specific purpose, and if there isn't a move, I presume you're meant to just think the situation through as a GM and say what happens next.

So, grappling. During last week's game, the party found their way to a ritual, being conducted by a robed, horned figure (It was a tiefling, actually) behind some sort of altar / lectern, and with a mass of cultists around. The fighty types leapt in and immediately started applying weapons to faces, which was fine and a lot of fun. The sneaky types, however, snuck behind the lectern (Discovering that the tiefling was reading from a book), and the cleric says "I want to grapple her, to stop the ritual".

"Okay, fine..." I say, thinking... "you're behind her, you're wearing a heavy suit of armour, she's distracted... yeah, sure."

It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

Mechanically, I suppose I could have said "roll +stat", and judged the result from there, (10+, grapple, 7-9, grapple but knock a candle onto the book she's reading from - which is a thing that did later happen, actually - 6-, fall on your face), but that just feels a little... crap. Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

Quote from: Haffrung;683125In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

THIS. I've never seen the need for complex grappling rules either. It's an attack, I treat it as such. If the attack succeeds, the target can try to break free with a STR save -- or similar thing if the system lacks saves. This (or some other simple system) seems to work just as well as the more complex systems and without all the book referencing and arguing that more complex systems seem to require. I'm not familiar enough with DW to suggest specifics, but if you keep it simple, it'll probably work just fine.

Quote from: RandallS;683139THIS. I've never seen the need for complex grappling rules either. It's an attack, I treat it as such. If the attack succeeds, the target can try to break free with a STR save -- or similar thing if the system lacks saves. This (or some other simple system) seems to work just as well as the more complex systems and without all the book referencing and arguing that more complex systems seem to require. I'm not familiar enough with DW to suggest specifics, but if you keep it simple, it'll probably work just fine.

Well, that's the thing; Dungeon World doesn't actually have any such thing as a "stat check" or even "save"; it didn't feel right as "hack and slash" (The default "be in melee combat" move), and there isn't a general "attack" move (If you're just attacking someone straight out, it just happens, unless they're on their guard or something else would let them react to it).

I'm not sure how much simpler a mechanic you can get than "seems legit". I may still be tuned to expect too many rules from a game, or to not trust GM fiat enough (Even, you know, as a GM)?

Quote from: Haffrung;683125In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

(blinks owlishly)  Because ... people never have a need to go hand to hand?  Ever?  In decades?  Eeeeesh.

The combat core rules run about 50 pages.  I don't expect you reduce all the rest of them, for every other combat situation, to a single attribute check -- okay, roll against DX ... you win?  Great, you defeat the other guy in battle.

For my part, I can think of many reasons to use grappling rules, and I do use them, as a player: my most recent player was a martial artist in a group of gunslingers, on the (accurate) grounds that one of us, at least, ought to be able to deal with combat situations that didn't involve (or would have been horribly complicated by) bullet wounds.  There doesn't need to be any more argument or debate -- rancorous or otherwise -- about rules governing that than with any other set of rules.

'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.
I think there might be a move in Apocalypse World that'd work also.

Quote from: Ladybird;683119Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

So why did you buy it then?

Quote from: Ravenswing;683225The combat core rules run about 50 pages.  I don't expect you reduce all the rest of them, for every other combat situation, to a single attribute check -- okay, roll against DX ... you win?  Great, you defeat the other guy in battle.

The Rules Cyclopedia (BECM hardback version) manages to cover combat in 15 pages, two of those are to-hit tables and 2 or 3 of those pages are optional rules. And they never descend to roll a die and see if you win. Heck the combat rules for Microlite74 Extended are just 2-3 pages and they don't reduce a combat to a single roll either. :)

Quote from: Ladybird;683152I'm not sure how much simpler a mechanic you can get than "seems legit".

Given what I've read of and about DW, I don't see why that would not work, I just incorrectly assumed you wanted more.

QuoteI may still be tuned to expect too many rules from a game, or to not trust GM fiat enough (Even, you know, as a GM)?

If you are used to depending on rules top cover "almost everything", learning to just trust your judgement can actually be pretty hard. At least that's what some folks who started with 3.x and moved to Microlite74 have told me.

Quote from: Ladybird;683119So I'm running Dungeon World. This is a game which simply doesn't have rules for some things that other games do, like perception and initiative. It also doesn't have an easily-adaptable "core mechanic"; every move is there for a specific purpose, and if there isn't a move, I presume you're meant to just think the situation through as a GM and say what happens next.

So, grappling. During last week's game, the party found their way to a ritual, being conducted by a robed, horned figure (It was a tiefling, actually) behind some sort of altar / lectern, and with a mass of cultists around. The fighty types leapt in and immediately started applying weapons to faces, which was fine and a lot of fun. The sneaky types, however, snuck behind the lectern (Discovering that the tiefling was reading from a book), and the cleric says "I want to grapple her, to stop the ritual".

"Okay, fine..." I say, thinking... "you're behind her, you're wearing a heavy suit of armour, she's distracted... yeah, sure."

It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

Mechanically, I suppose I could have said "roll +stat", and judged the result from there, (10+, grapple, 7-9, grapple but knock a candle onto the book she's reading from - which is a thing that did later happen, actually - 6-, fall on your face), but that just feels a little... crap. Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

According to Dungeon World:

QuoteHack and slash is for attacking a prepared enemy plain and simple. If the enemy isn't prepared for your attack—if they don't know you're there or they're restrained and helpless—then that's not hack and slash. You just deal your damage or murder them outright, depending on the situation. Nasty stuff.

You done good.

Most grappling rules are shit, usually because they're far too complicated and too ineffective to be worth it. Besides, how often are your usual murderhobo types looking to take prisoners?

Grappling has cultural significance in my game, it's one of those things a good Greek athlete is expected to excel at. The rules are pretty simple in ACKS, and  only needed to add one Proficiency to reflect how that can become an integrated part of a whole fighting system.

Here are said rules, in their entirety:

QuoteWRESTLING
Instead of making a melee attack, a combatant may attempt to wrestle with his opponent. To wrestle an opponent, a combatant must succeed on a melee attack throw with a -4 penalty. The opponent must then make a saving throw versus Paralysis. If the combatant is significantly larger than the opponent (an ogre wrestling a man, for instance) the opponent suffers a -4 penalty on his saving throw. If the opponent succeeds on his saving throw, he has shrugged off the combatant. If he fails, he has been grabbed in a wrestling hold. A combatant who has grabbed an opponent may perform a brawl, force back, disarm, or knock down action each round without having to make an attack throw so long as the hold continues (the opponent still receives a saving throw). A knock down or force back will end the hold, unless the wrestling combatant chooses to move with his held opponent. Other combatants are at +4 on attack throws against the held opponent, and thieves may backstab him. The held opponent may make another saving throw versus Paralysis each round to attempt to escape the hold.

You can take a Proficiency that reduces the penalty to -2, and imposes a -2 penalty on your opponent's saves. What I like is the linkage into other maneuvers, rather than it just being a boring "immobilise or do damage". It also has a massive teamwork advantage.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;683226'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.
I think there might be a move in Apocalypse World that'd work also.

I didn't have my copy of AW handy at the time. I can't find 'Pull a Stunt' in my copy of DW, though - page reference?

Quote from: RandallS;683236Given what I've read of and about DW, I don't see why that would not work, I just incorrectly assumed you wanted more.

If you are used to depending on rules top cover "almost everything", learning to just trust your judgement can actually be pretty hard. At least that's what some folks who started with 3.x and moved to Microlite74 have told me.

If it works, it works; I'm really happy with how the game goes at the table (I'm looking forward to actually getting to play from the other side of the table this week, too).

I think you might be completely correct, with "learn to trust your judgement". It does kinda show rules as a bit of a safety net to the actual role playing, or a hiding place for indecision; none of that shit in Dungeon World. You have to be there.

Quote from: Ladybird;683242I didn't have my copy of AW handy at the time. I can't find 'Pull a Stunt' in my copy of DW, though - page reference?

I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, but it's not where I'd have expected to find it. Maybe it was in AW, not DW? I dunno, DW is weird. Maybe you could modify Hack and Slash if you have to?

I'm at work currently, but googling it I found this which looks the same. Right up the front, but looks like I've been looking at an old version.

http://www.latorra.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dungeon-World-old.pdf (http://www.latorra.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dungeon-World-old.pdf)

I like to define grappling. Are we talking about two foes wrestling back and forth or some kind of instant immobilizing choke hold?

Quote from: Ladybird;683119It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

This is actually one of the reasons I don't like Dungeon World and prefer Apocalypse World: DW changed the basic moves of the system, but didn't do a particularly good job of it and ended up leaving some gaping holes. It doesn't necessarily crop up often, but when it does (as you've experienced) it tends to leave you at something of a loss.

In Apocalypse World this would be Seize By Force. I'd recommend simply transitioning that move to DW.

When you try to SEIZE SOMETHING BY FORCE, or to secure your hold on something, roll+hard. On 10+, choose 3 options. On 7-9, choose 2:
- you take definite hold of it
- you suffer little harm
- you inflict terrible harm
- you impress, dismay, or frighten your enemy

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;683226'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.

They actually yanked Pull a Stunt several iterations ago (long before it was ever a book; I don't even have a copy of a hack file that still references it). Hack and Slash does say "some attacks may have additional effects depending on the triggering action ... [it] could also knock someone down [or] restrain them". But the actual mechanic doesn't really fit with having a "restrain" option that isn't an additional effect being tacked onto a lethal assault.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;683388They actually yanked Pull a Stunt several iterations ago (long before it was ever a book; I don't even have a copy of a hack file that still references it).

Oh, okay. Pity, I liked the thing where Rangers had the ability to sharpshoot by cross-matching options from the Pull a Stunt and Shooting option lists.

Time to start an edition war on how Original DW was so much better than what the kids play nowadays, I guess :)

Quote from: Kiero;683241Most grappling rules are shit, usually because they're far too complicated and too ineffective to be worth it. Besides, how often are your usual murderhobo types looking to take prisoners?

Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

Quote from: Ravenswing;683720Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

The complication doesn't come from their length/comprehensiveness, but from the fact they're usually built of exceptions and special rules that don't really have much in common with the rest of the combat system. See White Wolf's various awful grappling rules (even worse than the rest of their rules) for a good example.

Quote from: Ravenswing;683720Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

Yeah, no kidding.

I want grappling rules that take things like size and strength into account, and make it hard to use a (big) melee weapon while someone's grappling you.

I'd also want grappling rules to cover what happens when a bunch of people jump you.

Also, ideally, grappling rules should take into account supernatural abilities or unusual skin types (harder to grapple a fish; you might be able to grapple an animate slime with something like telekinesis).

For games with cinematic combat, it ought to be possible to fight off a bunch of people grappling you if you're skilled enough.

It's kinda hard to imagine an adequate super hero game without decent grappling rules.

That said, they don't have to be super-complex; they just need to account for basic factors that are likely to come up. I run a lot of games where people grapple all over the place. I'm always surprised when people say they don't encounter that sort of thing.

Cheers,
-E.

Arrows of Indra has grappling rules.

Ironic that this thread just popped back up to the first page. We finished our session this evening with a pankration match between one PC and the gymnastai (trainer). Best of three falls, the PC managed to just edge his way to victory. Both big guys who could have taken each other out if they'd simply slugged it out, no dirty tricks used.

So we used the grappling rules, and they worked pretty well.

Some people sometimes (and some people all the time) want to play a game where whether to grab someone or to just stab them is an important and interesting decision. Like: one thing might be straight up better than the other

That is, that is the way they wanna think about the action in the game.Like "Hmmm... how do I solve this problem? He's got plate, my sword can't penetrate it...how do I get out of this...grab him!"

Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Dungeon World, as-written, is not this kind of game and not for this kind of person.

It is a game for people who want to imagine a combat where people get grabbed whenever it seems like that'd be a fun thing to imagine, not only when the situation seems to particularly suggest it as a smart option.

Quote from: Zak S;684622Some people sometimes (and some people all the time) want to play a game where whether to grab someone or to just stab them is an important an interesting decision. Like: one thing might be straight up better than the other

That is, that is the way they wanna think about the action in the game.Like "Hmmm... how do I solve this problem? He's got plate, my sword can't penetrate it...how do I get out of this...grab him!"

Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Dungeon World, as-written, is not this kind of game and not for this kind of person.

It is a game for people who want to imagine a combat where people get grabbed whenever it seems like that'd be a fun thing to imagine, not only when the situation seems to particularly suggest it as a smart option.

Yup.  What you're talking about is making grappling emulative.  And that's definitely not what DW does.

Quote from: RPGPundit;684970Yup.  What you're talking about is making grappling emulative.  And that's definitely not what DW does.

It doesn't even have to be emulative, it could just be making grappling an action with it's own distinct tactical profile (like "jumping" vs "fireball" in Super Mario are actions with 2 different tactical profiles--2 different reasons to be used). But DW isn't about that--it's about "If you think it would be cool to describe how the number shake out here as 'Grappling' go ahead"

It's a different kinda game that way.

Quote from: Zak S;684622Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Actually, that is what Dungeon World does, by approaching everything from the point of view of "what is going on in the fiction" and letting the GM adjudicate; get enough advantages, maybe "defy danger" if they're armed and try to stab you before you grapple them, and away you go. Target's actually an olympic standard wrestler, and you didn't size them up properly beforehand to realise this? Well, this is going to go badly.

Quote from: Zak S;684978It doesn't even have to be emulative, it could just be making grappling an action with it's own distinct tactical profile (like "jumping" vs "fireball" in Super Mario are actions with 2 different tactical profiles--2 different reasons to be used). But DW isn't about that--it's about "If you think it would be cool to describe how the number shake out here as 'Grappling' go ahead"

It's, er, really not. Hack and slash, the default combat move, is a trade of blows, you're fighting someone who is fighting back. Any sort of free hit, for example a damaging hold or stabbing someone while your buddy holds him, is just free damage... but you've got to set that situation up beforehand, to get that free hit.

What you're discussing is making grappling a game mechanics choice. You can think back to the rules and think "yeah, grappling is the right choice for me now"; maybe you'll need to do some set-up moves to get the necessary bonuses. The GM fiat-y situation in DW makes grappling a game situation choice - you have to get yourself into a situation where a grapple is possible, and that's what your set-up moves are for.

If anything, the GM fiat option allows for better emulation, because it explicitly prevents situations like "I have a huge grappling bonus and want to grapple the giant ooze", for example. There's no scope for "but the rules say I can do it!" whining.

Does Dungeon World do something new that no other RPG has done before?  What is the game's claim to fame?

Quote from: Ladybird;685106Actually, that is what Dungeon World does...

What you describe wasn't really my experience when I played , but I 100% believe you that if you had a GM attuned to these priorities then they could make these choices work the way you describe here.

On the other hand, this is true in any traditional RPG without grappling rules the GM is using.

Like, when I run a game I don't use the grappling rules from the game I'm running. I make up new ones.

The difference between this situation and DW is almost negligible but not quite: I have a grappling rule and DW doesn't.

DW doesn't have to have one to be a good game, but any GM who wants the players to regularly think tactically in this way is going to have to find a rule and apply it consistently. Or at least convince the players that the adjudication will be done pretty much the same way every time in absence of a rule.

Like does wearing plate armor give you a minus? Does it give you a minus every time? Might as well have a rule.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;685128Does Dungeon World do something new that no other RPG has done before?  What is the game's claim to fame?

It is D&Dish (author's words: "pop fantasy") content with the resolution engine from Apocalypse World, which is a narrative-focused (it's author's words) indie-RPG favorite.

So people who don't like traditional physics-engine resolution are into it. And people who are but want something different now and again.

Quote from: Zak S;685139Like, when I run a game I don't use the grappling rules from the game I'm running. I make up new ones.

So, tell us about your grappling rules! How do you do them?

Quote from: Ladybird;685150So, tell us about your grappling rules! How do you do them?

Roll to hit vs (AC minus any bonus for armor), on a successful hit the attacker's grabbed the defender.

On any subsequent turn the defender can try to break the grapple by rolling d10+their whole strength vs d10+grabber's whole strength. High roll wins. If that's impossible, the defender can still escape if they roll a 10 and the grabber rolls a zero. The defender can use dex instead of strength if the defender is grabbing with something that would allow that kind of escape, like a whip.

The grabber can, after a grapple turn, choke or bite or whatever for (in the case of a human) d4+strength bonus without rolling a new attack.

The grabber is vulnerable when grabbing: their armor class is 2 pts worse.

Grappling is an integral part of RQ6 combat. The most memorable grappling contest in my current campaign was an epic bout between an 18th C marine sergeant and a large turtle. Just last week we also had a fight ended by the scholarly character, who possessing no weapon skills, used his school-boy sports & pugilistic training to tackle one of the BBEGs and render him immobile so that the party could take him alive.  So grappling is an important aspect of my campaigns.