Quote from: Ladybird;683119It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

This is actually one of the reasons I don't like Dungeon World and prefer Apocalypse World: DW changed the basic moves of the system, but didn't do a particularly good job of it and ended up leaving some gaping holes. It doesn't necessarily crop up often, but when it does (as you've experienced) it tends to leave you at something of a loss.

In Apocalypse World this would be Seize By Force. I'd recommend simply transitioning that move to DW.

When you try to SEIZE SOMETHING BY FORCE, or to secure your hold on something, roll+hard. On 10+, choose 3 options. On 7-9, choose 2:
- you take definite hold of it
- you suffer little harm
- you inflict terrible harm
- you impress, dismay, or frighten your enemy

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;683226'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.

They actually yanked Pull a Stunt several iterations ago (long before it was ever a book; I don't even have a copy of a hack file that still references it). Hack and Slash does say "some attacks may have additional effects depending on the triggering action ... [it] could also knock someone down [or] restrain them". But the actual mechanic doesn't really fit with having a "restrain" option that isn't an additional effect being tacked onto a lethal assault.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;683388They actually yanked Pull a Stunt several iterations ago (long before it was ever a book; I don't even have a copy of a hack file that still references it).

Oh, okay. Pity, I liked the thing where Rangers had the ability to sharpshoot by cross-matching options from the Pull a Stunt and Shooting option lists.

Time to start an edition war on how Original DW was so much better than what the kids play nowadays, I guess

Quote from: Kiero;683241Most grappling rules are shit, usually because they're far too complicated and too ineffective to be worth it. Besides, how often are your usual murderhobo types looking to take prisoners?

Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

Quote from: Ravenswing;683720Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

The complication doesn't come from their length/comprehensiveness, but from the fact they're usually built of exceptions and special rules that don't really have much in common with the rest of the combat system. See White Wolf's various awful grappling rules (even worse than the rest of their rules) for a good example.

Quote from: Ravenswing;683720Just out of curiosity, do you know of ANY significant RPG where the unarmed combat rules are more extensive than the armed combat rules?

That being said, yes, you're right: your average murderhobo isn't looking to take prisoners.

For the tens of thousands of campaigns out there that don't cater to murderhobos, other options are desirable.

Yeah, no kidding.

I want grappling rules that take things like size and strength into account, and make it hard to use a (big) melee weapon while someone's grappling you.

I'd also want grappling rules to cover what happens when a bunch of people jump you.

Also, ideally, grappling rules should take into account supernatural abilities or unusual skin types (harder to grapple a fish; you might be able to grapple an animate slime with something like telekinesis).

For games with cinematic combat, it ought to be possible to fight off a bunch of people grappling you if you're skilled enough.

It's kinda hard to imagine an adequate super hero game without decent grappling rules.

That said, they don't have to be super-complex; they just need to account for basic factors that are likely to come up. I run a lot of games where people grapple all over the place. I'm always surprised when people say they don't encounter that sort of thing.

Cheers,
-E.

Arrows of Indra has grappling rules.

Ironic that this thread just popped back up to the first page. We finished our session this evening with a pankration match between one PC and the gymnastai (trainer). Best of three falls, the PC managed to just edge his way to victory. Both big guys who could have taken each other out if they'd simply slugged it out, no dirty tricks used.

So we used the grappling rules, and they worked pretty well.

Some people sometimes (and some people all the time) want to play a game where whether to grab someone or to just stab them is an important and interesting decision. Like: one thing might be straight up better than the other

That is, that is the way they wanna think about the action in the game.Like "Hmmm... how do I solve this problem? He's got plate, my sword can't penetrate it...how do I get out of this...grab him!"

Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Dungeon World, as-written, is not this kind of game and not for this kind of person.

It is a game for people who want to imagine a combat where people get grabbed whenever it seems like that'd be a fun thing to imagine, not only when the situation seems to particularly suggest it as a smart option.

Quote from: Zak S;684622Some people sometimes (and some people all the time) want to play a game where whether to grab someone or to just stab them is an important an interesting decision. Like: one thing might be straight up better than the other

That is, that is the way they wanna think about the action in the game.Like "Hmmm... how do I solve this problem? He's got plate, my sword can't penetrate it...how do I get out of this...grab him!"

Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Dungeon World, as-written, is not this kind of game and not for this kind of person.

It is a game for people who want to imagine a combat where people get grabbed whenever it seems like that'd be a fun thing to imagine, not only when the situation seems to particularly suggest it as a smart option.

Yup.  What you're talking about is making grappling emulative.  And that's definitely not what DW does.

Quote from: RPGPundit;684970Yup.  What you're talking about is making grappling emulative.  And that's definitely not what DW does.

It doesn't even have to be emulative, it could just be making grappling an action with it's own distinct tactical profile (like "jumping" vs "fireball" in Super Mario are actions with 2 different tactical profiles--2 different reasons to be used). But DW isn't about that--it's about "If you think it would be cool to describe how the number shake out here as 'Grappling' go ahead"

It's a different kinda game that way.

Quote from: Zak S;684622Those games need grappling rules that, while not necessarily "realistic", need to make grappling sometimes a better decision in some situations for some characters and sometimes a worse decision in some situations for some characters and need to do this according to some rule that matches what even a player who doesn't know these rules would kinda expect.

Actually, that is what Dungeon World does, by approaching everything from the point of view of "what is going on in the fiction" and letting the GM adjudicate; get enough advantages, maybe "defy danger" if they're armed and try to stab you before you grapple them, and away you go. Target's actually an olympic standard wrestler, and you didn't size them up properly beforehand to realise this? Well, this is going to go badly.

Quote from: Zak S;684978It doesn't even have to be emulative, it could just be making grappling an action with it's own distinct tactical profile (like "jumping" vs "fireball" in Super Mario are actions with 2 different tactical profiles--2 different reasons to be used). But DW isn't about that--it's about "If you think it would be cool to describe how the number shake out here as 'Grappling' go ahead"

It's, er, really not. Hack and slash, the default combat move, is a trade of blows, you're fighting someone who is fighting back. Any sort of free hit, for example a damaging hold or stabbing someone while your buddy holds him, is just free damage... but you've got to set that situation up beforehand, to get that free hit.

What you're discussing is making grappling a game mechanics choice. You can think back to the rules and think "yeah, grappling is the right choice for me now"; maybe you'll need to do some set-up moves to get the necessary bonuses. The GM fiat-y situation in DW makes grappling a game situation choice - you have to get yourself into a situation where a grapple is possible, and that's what your set-up moves are for.

If anything, the GM fiat option allows for better emulation, because it explicitly prevents situations like "I have a huge grappling bonus and want to grapple the giant ooze", for example. There's no scope for "but the rules say I can do it!" whining.

Does Dungeon World do something new that no other RPG has done before?  What is the game's claim to fame?

Quote from: Ladybird;685106Actually, that is what Dungeon World does...

What you describe wasn't really my experience when I played , but I 100% believe you that if you had a GM attuned to these priorities then they could make these choices work the way you describe here.

On the other hand, this is true in any traditional RPG without grappling rules the GM is using.

Like, when I run a game I don't use the grappling rules from the game I'm running. I make up new ones.

The difference between this situation and DW is almost negligible but not quite: I have a grappling rule and DW doesn't.

DW doesn't have to have one to be a good game, but any GM who wants the players to regularly think tactically in this way is going to have to find a rule and apply it consistently. Or at least convince the players that the adjudication will be done pretty much the same way every time in absence of a rule.

Like does wearing plate armor give you a minus? Does it give you a minus every time? Might as well have a rule.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;685128Does Dungeon World do something new that no other RPG has done before?  What is the game's claim to fame?

It is D&Dish (author's words: "pop fantasy") content with the resolution engine from Apocalypse World, which is a narrative-focused (it's author's words) indie-RPG favorite.

So people who don't like traditional physics-engine resolution are into it. And people who are but want something different now and again.

Quote from: Zak S;685139Like, when I run a game I don't use the grappling rules from the game I'm running. I make up new ones.

So, tell us about your grappling rules! How do you do them?