So I'm running Dungeon World. This is a game which simply doesn't have rules for some things that other games do, like perception and initiative. It also doesn't have an easily-adaptable "core mechanic"; every move is there for a specific purpose, and if there isn't a move, I presume you're meant to just think the situation through as a GM and say what happens next.

So, grappling. During last week's game, the party found their way to a ritual, being conducted by a robed, horned figure (It was a tiefling, actually) behind some sort of altar / lectern, and with a mass of cultists around. The fighty types leapt in and immediately started applying weapons to faces, which was fine and a lot of fun. The sneaky types, however, snuck behind the lectern (Discovering that the tiefling was reading from a book), and the cleric says "I want to grapple her, to stop the ritual".

"Okay, fine..." I say, thinking... "you're behind her, you're wearing a heavy suit of armour, she's distracted... yeah, sure."

It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

Mechanically, I suppose I could have said "roll +stat", and judged the result from there, (10+, grapple, 7-9, grapple but knock a candle onto the book she's reading from - which is a thing that did later happen, actually - 6-, fall on your face), but that just feels a little... crap. Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

Quote from: Haffrung;683125In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

THIS. I've never seen the need for complex grappling rules either. It's an attack, I treat it as such. If the attack succeeds, the target can try to break free with a STR save -- or similar thing if the system lacks saves. This (or some other simple system) seems to work just as well as the more complex systems and without all the book referencing and arguing that more complex systems seem to require. I'm not familiar enough with DW to suggest specifics, but if you keep it simple, it'll probably work just fine.

Quote from: RandallS;683139THIS. I've never seen the need for complex grappling rules either. It's an attack, I treat it as such. If the attack succeeds, the target can try to break free with a STR save -- or similar thing if the system lacks saves. This (or some other simple system) seems to work just as well as the more complex systems and without all the book referencing and arguing that more complex systems seem to require. I'm not familiar enough with DW to suggest specifics, but if you keep it simple, it'll probably work just fine.

Well, that's the thing; Dungeon World doesn't actually have any such thing as a "stat check" or even "save"; it didn't feel right as "hack and slash" (The default "be in melee combat" move), and there isn't a general "attack" move (If you're just attacking someone straight out, it just happens, unless they're on their guard or something else would let them react to it).

I'm not sure how much simpler a mechanic you can get than "seems legit". I may still be tuned to expect too many rules from a game, or to not trust GM fiat enough (Even, you know, as a GM)?

Quote from: Haffrung;683125In 34 years of playing D&D I've never felt any need to use grappling rules. Whenever I see rancorous debates flare up over the issue, it reads to me like a bunch of people arguing over the rules for jumping off a moving horse. Just make a fucking attribute check and move on.

(blinks owlishly)  Because ... people never have a need to go hand to hand?  Ever?  In decades?  Eeeeesh.

The combat core rules run about 50 pages.  I don't expect you reduce all the rest of them, for every other combat situation, to a single attribute check -- okay, roll against DX ... you win?  Great, you defeat the other guy in battle.

For my part, I can think of many reasons to use grappling rules, and I do use them, as a player: my most recent player was a martial artist in a group of gunslingers, on the (accurate) grounds that one of us, at least, ought to be able to deal with combat situations that didn't involve (or would have been horribly complicated by) bullet wounds.  There doesn't need to be any more argument or debate -- rancorous or otherwise -- about rules governing that than with any other set of rules.

'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.
I think there might be a move in Apocalypse World that'd work also.

Quote from: Ladybird;683119Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

So why did you buy it then?

Quote from: Ravenswing;683225The combat core rules run about 50 pages.  I don't expect you reduce all the rest of them, for every other combat situation, to a single attribute check -- okay, roll against DX ... you win?  Great, you defeat the other guy in battle.

The Rules Cyclopedia (BECM hardback version) manages to cover combat in 15 pages, two of those are to-hit tables and 2 or 3 of those pages are optional rules. And they never descend to roll a die and see if you win. Heck the combat rules for Microlite74 Extended are just 2-3 pages and they don't reduce a combat to a single roll either.

Quote from: Ladybird;683152I'm not sure how much simpler a mechanic you can get than "seems legit".

Given what I've read of and about DW, I don't see why that would not work, I just incorrectly assumed you wanted more.

QuoteI may still be tuned to expect too many rules from a game, or to not trust GM fiat enough (Even, you know, as a GM)?

If you are used to depending on rules top cover "almost everything", learning to just trust your judgement can actually be pretty hard. At least that's what some folks who started with 3.x and moved to Microlite74 have told me.

Quote from: Ladybird;683119So I'm running Dungeon World. This is a game which simply doesn't have rules for some things that other games do, like perception and initiative. It also doesn't have an easily-adaptable "core mechanic"; every move is there for a specific purpose, and if there isn't a move, I presume you're meant to just think the situation through as a GM and say what happens next.

So, grappling. During last week's game, the party found their way to a ritual, being conducted by a robed, horned figure (It was a tiefling, actually) behind some sort of altar / lectern, and with a mass of cultists around. The fighty types leapt in and immediately started applying weapons to faces, which was fine and a lot of fun. The sneaky types, however, snuck behind the lectern (Discovering that the tiefling was reading from a book), and the cleric says "I want to grapple her, to stop the ritual".

"Okay, fine..." I say, thinking... "you're behind her, you're wearing a heavy suit of armour, she's distracted... yeah, sure."

It worked for the event, and moved the game forward. But I'm still unsure about the call, so I'm wondering what you good people would have thought in the situation.

Mechanically, I suppose I could have said "roll +stat", and judged the result from there, (10+, grapple, 7-9, grapple but knock a candle onto the book she's reading from - which is a thing that did later happen, actually - 6-, fall on your face), but that just feels a little... crap. Not bothering to meet the game on it's own terms.

According to Dungeon World:

QuoteHack and slash is for attacking a prepared enemy plain and simple. If the enemy isn't prepared for your attack—if they don't know you're there or they're restrained and helpless—then that's not hack and slash. You just deal your damage or murder them outright, depending on the situation. Nasty stuff.

You done good.

Most grappling rules are shit, usually because they're far too complicated and too ineffective to be worth it. Besides, how often are your usual murderhobo types looking to take prisoners?

Grappling has cultural significance in my game, it's one of those things a good Greek athlete is expected to excel at. The rules are pretty simple in ACKS, and  only needed to add one Proficiency to reflect how that can become an integrated part of a whole fighting system.

Here are said rules, in their entirety:

QuoteWRESTLING
Instead of making a melee attack, a combatant may attempt to wrestle with his opponent. To wrestle an opponent, a combatant must succeed on a melee attack throw with a -4 penalty. The opponent must then make a saving throw versus Paralysis. If the combatant is significantly larger than the opponent (an ogre wrestling a man, for instance) the opponent suffers a -4 penalty on his saving throw. If the opponent succeeds on his saving throw, he has shrugged off the combatant. If he fails, he has been grabbed in a wrestling hold. A combatant who has grabbed an opponent may perform a brawl, force back, disarm, or knock down action each round without having to make an attack throw so long as the hold continues (the opponent still receives a saving throw). A knock down or force back will end the hold, unless the wrestling combatant chooses to move with his held opponent. Other combatants are at +4 on attack throws against the held opponent, and thieves may backstab him. The held opponent may make another saving throw versus Paralysis each round to attempt to escape the hold.

You can take a Proficiency that reduces the penalty to -2, and imposes a -2 penalty on your opponent's saves. What I like is the linkage into other maneuvers, rather than it just being a boring "immobilise or do damage". It also has a massive teamwork advantage.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;683226'Pull a stunt' lets you 'take control of something...like a hostage' or 'hack and slash' lets you 'put something where you want them' - its not just for dealing damage.
I think there might be a move in Apocalypse World that'd work also.

I didn't have my copy of AW handy at the time. I can't find 'Pull a Stunt' in my copy of DW, though - page reference?

Quote from: RandallS;683236Given what I've read of and about DW, I don't see why that would not work, I just incorrectly assumed you wanted more.

If you are used to depending on rules top cover "almost everything", learning to just trust your judgement can actually be pretty hard. At least that's what some folks who started with 3.x and moved to Microlite74 have told me.

If it works, it works; I'm really happy with how the game goes at the table (I'm looking forward to actually getting to play from the other side of the table this week, too).

I think you might be completely correct, with "learn to trust your judgement". It does kinda show rules as a bit of a safety net to the actual role playing, or a hiding place for indecision; none of that shit in Dungeon World. You have to be there.

Quote from: Ladybird;683242I didn't have my copy of AW handy at the time. I can't find 'Pull a Stunt' in my copy of DW, though - page reference?

I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, but it's not where I'd have expected to find it. Maybe it was in AW, not DW? I dunno, DW is weird. Maybe you could modify Hack and Slash if you have to?

I'm at work currently, but googling it I found this which looks the same. Right up the front, but looks like I've been looking at an old version.

http://www.latorra.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dungeon-World-old.pdf

I like to define grappling. Are we talking about two foes wrestling back and forth or some kind of instant immobilizing choke hold?