I read it--or attempted to.  Found it impenetrable in parts, and the writing flowery to the point of incomprehension at times.  

But I believe there's several AP threads at Big Purple that talk about Nob games.

For diceless, I'll stick with Amber.

The writing is needlessly unclear. The system on the other hand, is simple and has no big problems; but you have to find the mechanical bits through a long and arduous process.
I think the main issue with the game is the lack of meaningful restrictions on the use of powers. Not in the sense of miracle points (which are a serviceable limiter for how often you use your powers) but in the myriad ways that an aspect can be interpreted, producing a game which seems to exist to make people argue about what they can do with their aspects. Needless to say, we did not get a functioning game out of it.
I think the game gives you some things to do with your characters well enough: protect your chancel, fight Excrucians, etc. My group just wanted to kill Lord Entropy right off, though; not sure what that means (I wanted him dead too).

Quote from: The Worid;322006The writing is needlessly unclear. The system on the other hand, is simple and has no big problems; but you have to find the mechanical bits through a long and arduous process.

Very true. Rebecca Borgstrom is appallingly bad at arranging and explaining rules. The Weapons of the Gods campaign I was in was a somewhat painful process for precisely this reason.

QuoteI think the main issue with the game is the lack of meaningful restrictions on the use of powers. Not in the sense of miracle points (which are a serviceable limiter for how often you use your powers) but in the myriad ways that an aspect can be interpreted, producing a game which seems to exist to make people argue about what they can do with their aspects. Needless to say, we did not get a functioning game out of it.

This is also familiar from Weapons of the Gods; much time was spent trying to figure out what you could and couldn't do with the various martial arts and occult techniques.

QuoteI think the game gives you some things to do with your characters well enough: protect your chancel, fight Excrucians, etc. My group just wanted to kill Lord Entropy right off, though; not sure what that means (I wanted him dead too).

Lord Entropy doesn't sit right with me either, I think for two reasons:

- He's in the way. He rules the "real" world - as in Earth as it exists without the interference of the Gods - and doesn't like people spooking the locals. At least the entity the PCs directly serve is a creature designed collaboratively by the party itself, so the players can at least feel a sense of ownership over their boss - even if their overlord forbids them to do something, that's only happening because the players specifically chose not to design an overlord who lets them get away with crap. Lord Entropy, on the other hand, is imposed on the setting by Borgstrom and seems to exist for no other purpose other than to prevent PCs from kicking over the mundane world and dancing in the wreckage. And frankly, if I'm running a game where the PCs are basically Gods I couldn't give a toss whether they wreck the mundane world or warp it into something unrecognisable, and would be mildly disappointed if they didn't.

- The idiotic "Gods aren't allowed to love" rule. What the hell? Is this something he only enforces in the mundane world - in which case it seems supremely irrelevant since all the Gods have their very own treehouse dimensions that they can spend most of their time in - or is it something he enforces everywhere? If the latter, why the blue blazing fuck does everyone let him get away with it? The rule seems to exists purely to provoke angst, and players who want angst are perfectly capable of, say, having angelic PCs fall in love with demons or whatever by themselves without Lord Entropy saying "No, you're not even allowed to date people within your own faction".

Quote from: Warthur;322008The idiotic "Gods aren't allowed to love" rule.

The Windflower Law doesn't apply to gods: none of the Code Fidelitatis does. But then again, the PCs aren't gods, unlike Entropy.

As for why it's part of the setting, from the design perspective that's simple enough: as a law which everyone breaks sooner or later, it's intended to foster conflict, no matter who the characters are. "Thou Shalt Not Love Another" is an unreasonable demand made by the tyrant on the throne of the world. So what are you going to do about it?

Quote from: GrimGent;322009The Windflower Law doesn't apply to gods: none of the Code Fidelitatis does. But then again, the PCs aren't gods, unlike Entropy.

Demigods, Nobles, whatever. I don't especially care for the terminology Nobilis uses; I'm also not thrilled with the fact that it lives in denial of being a game where the PCs basically get to be gods. But there you go.

That said, this does raise another point about the Code: where the FUCK does Entropy get off telling other people's Nobles what to do? Why do they stand for it? What could they possibly hope to gain by letting him stake off an area of creation as being Masquerade territory? Why do they let him enforce it inside the chancels?

Quote from: Warthur;322012That said, this does raise another point about the Code: where the FUCK does Entropy get off telling other people's Nobles what to do? Why do they stand for it?

The Imperators support Entropy's regime partly because he's the prophesied messiah who may yet redeem himself in the final battle, and partly because, well, he is exceedingly good at what he does. You have a better arrangement in mind? Convince both Heaven and Hell that they should trust your cunning plan more than Entropy's expertise.

Also, in the history of the setting, the reason why the Code Fidelitatis was originally imposed on the Noble society is that they did nearly wreck the world. When the Council of Four took over Earth a thousand years ago, Nobles at the time were fighting each other openly for power and glory, neglecting the true purpose why they exist in the first place. Entropy eventually put an end to that by cutting them away from mortal rulership and setting up the Cammorans as the go-betweens for the mundane and supernatural worlds. That was the beginning of the Code, and as they say, this is why we can't have nice things.

Nobilis is an interesting setting and premise wedded to an extremely uninteresting and flavourless diceless system. I never had any problem deciphering it or the rules, I just found the resolution mechanic to be boring.

LB,
  For me, Nobilis was a mixed bag. the writing was a little cryptic for me. I got most of it, but it seemed like too much work for me. Maybe that was because I was in a crunch, I joined a game late and had like 1 day to read the book.
  The setting felt like a minefield to me. It really got in the way of chargen. Someone else mentions this, but I want to reinforce this. Starting characters don't have a very well defined purpose. If your GM is not proactive, you could end up with 3 players playing 3 different games. The setup for a political game is pretty well done. The setup for a war against the Excrucians is solid. And there seems to enough details, etc. to just do a sandbox of the world of Nobilis. So, if the GM is not proactive or isn't communicating the game he is playing well enough, you could end up with a lame character pretty easily.

  The rules are pretty good. There needs to be some expectation setting established by the GM, but once that is out of the way, it seemed pretty effective. I think that this rule set in the hands of a bag GM, would make a bad situation even worse though. But in a group where most everyone is on the same page, it would be a lot of fun. I got to play two sessions of it and it was better than I expected after the bad writing and weird probing to find out what the game was about.
  I wouldn't recommend it to every player, but if someone like Exalted, but didn't like the crunch, this might be the perfect game. When I read it, I kept thinking this is the Exalted Borgstrom wanted from the very beginning...

Quote from: dindenver;322034Starting characters don't have a very well defined purpose.

Well, except for the basic duties of a Noble: serve the Imperator, guard the Estate, and assist the Familia. But it's true that there's nothing even remotely like classes or races, no ready-made splats of any sort, in Nobilis. Instead, the players are supposed to bring their own concepts to the table and personally put together the kind of characters that they wish to play. Granted, that can lead to clashing expectations unless everyone involved discusses the planned set-up and playstyle in advance, but then that's true with any game, and by default the chargen process is something that the entire group handles together anyway. After all, it's the players who create the godlike being which the PCs serve and the pocket reality where they rule, not the GM.

Quote from: GrimGent;322013Also, in the history of the setting, the reason why the Code Fidelitatis was originally imposed on the Noble society is that they did nearly wreck the world. When the Council of Four took over Earth a thousand years ago, Nobles at the time were fighting each other openly for power and glory, neglecting the true purpose why they exist in the first place. Entropy eventually put an end to that by cutting them away from mortal rulership and setting up the Cammorans as the go-betweens for the mundane and supernatural worlds. That was the beginning of the Code, and as they say, this is why we can't have nice things.

It sounds like Borgstrom wanted PCs to behave in a very particular way, and came up with the Code and its history after the fact to justify it.

Also, fuck NPCs who are the Chosen Ones who are meant to fix the setting. If you're playing anything nearly as hyperpowered as Nobilis then any one of the PCs could fit the bill perfectly fine.

Quote from: Warthur;322051Also, fuck NPCs who are the Chosen Ones who are meant to fix the setting. If you're playing anything nearly as hyperpowered as Nobilis then any one of the PCs could fit the bill perfectly fine.

Oh, Entropy isn't going to fix the setting. He can't, really, since anything he touches will be corrupted beyond hope of healing, and the whole purpose of his existence seems to be to end the world when the proper time comes. But if the prophecy is to be believed, he will be the lynch-pin in the salvation of the universe at the end of the Great War.

Of course, not everyone believes in the prophecy. But again, if you are going to move against Entropy, you'll have to deal with those who do. It's quite possible to overthrow his reign, but it won't be easy. Where would the challenge be if it was?

QuoteWell, except for the basic duties of a Noble: serve the Imperator, guard the Estate, and assist the Familia. But it's true that there's nothing even remotely like classes or races, no ready-made splats of any sort, in Nobilis. Instead, the players are supposed to bring their own concepts to the table and personally put together the kind of characters that they wish to play. Granted, that can lead to clashing expectations unless everyone involved discusses the planned set-up and playstyle in advance, but then that's true with any game, and by default the chargen process is something that the entire group handles together anyway. After all, it's the players who create the godlike being which the PCs serve and the pocket reality where they rule, not the GM.

GG,
  Well, I wasn't looking for classes. But I mean if the campaign is about battling the Excrucians, you will make a different character than if the campaign is about the politics of rival Chancels, no? I mean, I guess it doesn't have to be, but in my mind, it was something that made it hard. Especially because the HHG kept saying that the game would be about whatever we wanted (which of course is useless for making a coherent group of characters).
  I'd play it again, but I wouldn't recommend it to every single player I know. Mostly because it seems like it is geared for a very specific play style.

I ran it a wee bit. I liked it.

Seanchai

Has anyone worked out why the GM is called the Hollyhock God?
Has it anything to do with the original 1st Edition cover?

Quote from: Lawbag;322066Has anyone worked out why the GM is called the Hollyhock God?

That's actually explained in the four-page summary chapter. The hollyhock is the symbol of ambition and vanity in the language of the flowers, and so it suits someone who aspires to rule the game world.