I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.

Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games.  But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation".  There's no similar pressure coming from the righties.  So what do we get?  An industry tipping leftwards from the path of least resistance.  Just look at Steve Jackson: the minute twitter stopped being a leftist echo chamber, he announced that it was full of fascists and ran away from it.  After years of constant positive reinforcement from the echo chamber for sticking rainbows randomly around his products, any kind of dissent whatsoever sent him right over the edge.  The industry has come to believe that the steady background hum of the wokes in social media is the normal status quo of the world, and have set up their products accordingly.

The right is just way more vocal in their anti-wokism everywhere else to completely make up for all the leftist woke crap they put into their rpg books and some people are so political minded to the right to have become his own form of wokist rhetoric. When a person feels the need to bring up politics in every video, every podcast, on Twitter X, and chooses to get into social media arguments over political view points then that person is just as bad as the woke person has become. Any kind of extremism shouldn't be part of gaming.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 19, 2023, 10:14:02 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

Should we be conflating right-wing extremists (whatever they are) with neo-nazis, anti-semites, identitarian white supremes?  This is what the left does, especially our politicians and the media.  They make that cognitive leap in order to paint everyone ideologically against them with the same brush.  Oh, you want lower taxes and fiscal responsibility?  Obviously, you're an extreme right-wing Republican and racist!

Sure, there's some overlap... but far less than the left.  Don't play their game, don't use their framing.  Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from.  And it may just save our hobby.

[taking a page out of Pundit's book] If you enjoyed my thoughts on this, which you should because they're correct... buy my RPG books!

Thank you,

VS

Wokes: believe that non-white people are inherently disadvantaged against whites
Nazis: believe that non-white people are inherently disadvantaged against whites

Wokes: believe that people of different colors couldn't possibly ever understand each other, and should stick to their own kind
Nazis: Same

Wokes: disapprove of interracial relationships as problematic
Nazis: Same

Wokes: Think America and other nations need to allow for racial segregation
Nazis: Same

Wokes: Think that Jews are oppressors who deserve whatever happens to them
Nazis: do I have to say it?


You know who doesn't believe any of those things? The vast majority of normal people. Which of course includes:

Wokes: Call people who defy them because they believe in actual western values "White supremacists"
Nazis: Call people who defy them because they believe in actual western values "woke grifters"

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 03:01:02 PM
Who buys and plays more tabletop RPGs? Left-wingers or Right-wingers?

Normal people.

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.

If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.

Oh dear lord.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.

If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.

Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate  government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.

All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.

Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. 

  I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs.  I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms.   I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas.  I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 21, 2023, 02:45:33 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.

If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.

Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate  government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.

All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.

Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. 

I'm not sure what you could define as "identitarianism" in this context. Do you mean someone who thinks that race is the single most important feature of an individual and of a social order?

Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
  I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs.  I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms.   I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas.  I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.

Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:59:00 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
  I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs.  I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms.   I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas.  I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.

Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.

  The thing is...what do you mean by incursion?  Producing materials?  Suddenly multiplying to a degree they are at every gaming table?  Making some videos and liking the same things?   This seems like more of a concern about what an enemy (leftists) would think if they saw hard right wingers liking the OSR instead of a concern about an actual takeover or incursion from the hard right.   It reminds me of articles in lefty outlets (and there are alot of these articles) about how working out is being "taken over" by hard right wing nationalists.   It is being concerned about having different color socks on while some dude is shooting at you with a flamethrower IMO. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 18, 2023, 06:06:52 AM

Quote from: Omega on November 17, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
I prefer the term "identists".  -ist em right back!

Ugh, is Apple commodifying teeth doctors now?! 

Wait? Wernt they allready? 

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

Keep in mind that some of these so-called BrOSR and extreme right types are very likely Leftists pulling a false flag maneuver. We have been seeing it with other hate groups. And it is very a tactic of the woke.

Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 12:12:59 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:59:00 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
  I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs.  I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms.   I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas.  I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.

Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.

  The thing is...what do you mean by incursion?  Producing materials?  Suddenly multiplying to a degree they are at every gaming table?  Making some videos and liking the same things?   This seems like more of a concern about what an enemy (leftists) would think if they saw hard right wingers liking the OSR instead of a concern about an actual takeover or incursion from the hard right.   It reminds me of articles in lefty outlets (and there are alot of these articles) about how working out is being "taken over" by hard right wing nationalists.   It is being concerned about having different color socks on while some dude is shooting at you with a flamethrower IMO.

No, wrong. We're seeing a perfect example of what's happening with the BroSR. Antisemitic identitarians who have created a facade of being "OSR lifters" but are actully ANTI-OSR, and want to essentially undo the entire movement and replace it into a "Only play AD&D1e" Sect where people will feel safe to engage in neo-nazi conversations without actually having to produce anything of value.
They DON'T NEED to make gaming materials, because what they push instead  is a "lifestyle" ("do you even lift bro", "we're the real hardcore", etc etc); nor do they need to make videos because small-time OSR youtubers (mostly would-be "influencer" types that don't actually design games) will give their cult leaders a platform in exchange for the promise of getting the members of the BroSR to subscribe to their channel, and after that they're trapped of their own volition; they will stand with everything and anything the BroSR does or says, because otherwise they might lose followers; and likewise, the influencers now won't themselves say or do anything on their channels and social media that would risk upsetting their BroSR masters.

So without producing ANYTHING, the BroSR has been able to destablize the OSR in a major way, while their membership is composed ENTIRELY of people who hate and do not play OSR games, and many people who don't care about ANY games, they're just along for the exciting opportunity to hate Jews in public.

Quote from: Omega on November 21, 2023, 12:25:30 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

Keep in mind that some of these so-called BrOSR and extreme right types are very likely Leftists pulling a false flag maneuver. We have been seeing it with other hate groups. And it is very a tactic of the woke.

I suppose that might be possible, though I haven't seen any meaningful evidence so far.  And for his part, Jeffro has been associated with the racist anti-semitic identitarian Right for a long time now. His first book was published by Vox Day.