These Things I Believe....
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
I prefer the term "identists". -ist em right back!
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties. So what do we get? An industry tipping leftwards from the path of least resistance. Just look at Steve Jackson: the minute twitter stopped being a leftist echo chamber, he announced that it was full of fascists and ran away from it. After years of constant positive reinforcement from the echo chamber for sticking rainbows randomly around his products, any kind of dissent whatsoever sent him right over the edge. The industry has come to believe that the steady background hum of the wokes in social media is the normal status quo of the world, and have set up their products accordingly.
Quote from: Omega on November 17, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
I prefer the term "identists". -ist em right back!
>:( Ugh, is Apple commodifying teeth doctors now?! ;D
QuoteThere's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Correct. I have no problem with Left and Right Identarians in RPG hobby as long as they are not trying to change it into echo chamber. Wokesters are trying. Others generally do not.
And normies who gonna run away from RPG because of some random Twitter being both aggresively political and pro-RPG - well fuck them, they are worse than both collectivists and libertarians.
I really miss the days when RPGs were played in dingy hobby store back rooms and basements. We were outcasts but we were outcasts together. Now we have to worry about putting up appearances or hiding our views carefully whenever we approach the new boutique shops with shiny floors and gaming tables right out front. It really pisses me off that I have to keep a close eye out when bringing my kid around because the trans immediately want to "make friends."
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 07:50:34 AM
QuoteThere's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Correct. I have no problem with Left and Right Identarians in RPG hobby as long as they are not trying to change it into echo chamber. Wokesters are trying. Others generally do not.
And normies who gonna run away from RPG because of some random Twitter being both aggresively political and pro-RPG - well fuck them, they are worse than both collectivists and libertarians.
The BroSR is hyper aggressive at attacking anyone who stands up to them. They behave EXACTLY like the woke identitarians, which after all believe all the same things (including hating Jews).
Normies won't run from people saying 'we don't want bullshit diversity readers', the normies are sick to death of all that crap. But Normies see actual nazis and they'll fuck off, because any normal person would. We need to treat the Antisemites and white-favoring race-collectivists the same way we treat entryists to the hobby who are pro-Antifa, pro-BLM or pro-"MAP"; with extreme prejudice.
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties. So what do we get? An industry tipping leftwards from the path of least resistance. Just look at Steve Jackson: the minute twitter stopped being a leftist echo chamber, he announced that it was full of fascists and ran away from it. After years of constant positive reinforcement from the echo chamber for sticking rainbows randomly around his products, any kind of dissent whatsoever sent him right over the edge. The industry has come to believe that the steady background hum of the wokes in social media is the normal status quo of the world, and have set up their products accordingly.
Absolutely! Piggybacking on that, let me say that if the youth want to get serious about preserving western civilization, they need to start identifying as conservative - stand up and be counted! Pussyfooting around with "no labels," independent, or non-political is going to end you up in a re-education center or gulag.
We don't fight bad things (ideas, speech, behavior, policy, etc.) with apathy, neutrality, or running away... we fight it with good things.
I'm with you all the way. I don't want any politics. We grognards remember when the right held sway. The religious right came after us hard. Jack Chick was cited by every police department in the United States.
Right now the left has the power, sure, but the pendulum will swing once again. It's important our message be fuck off with your real world politics, whatever they might be.
I might despise marxists, but if you're at my gaming table and are keeping that crap off my radar I have no problem running the shadows or brawling with some mechs.
Once we're away from the table we have the entire internet to wage war.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Frankly they're the exception that proves the rule.
We could post all day about people and groups pushing from the left, whereas the right has a dozen angry dads that post on Twitter.
Notice he said no similar pressure, not no pressure. You're worrying about the guy who leaves a bag of flaming poop on your doorstep, while another guy is burning your house down.
No-one takes the BroSR seriously, and they have zero power. The nutty lefties have the ear of corporations and politicians.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 18, 2023, 10:45:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Frankly they're the exception that proves the rule.
We could post all day about people and groups pushing from the left, whereas the right has a dozen angry dads that post on Twitter.
Notice he said no similar pressure, not no pressure. You're worrying about the guy who leaves a bag of flaming poop on your doorstep, while another guy is burning your house down.
No-one takes the BroSR seriously, and they have zero power. The nutty lefties have the ear of corporations and politicians.
Not just the ear, but the feet and fist and heart... and it's corporations, politicians, teachers, the media, thousands of activists ready to march and riot in the streets, etc.
I honestly can't get worked up over a few guys on Twitter. If we start seeing them take over WotC, Paizo, or other big name (for RPGs) companies then I'll start thinking about it. Although it'd be tough to be worse than the current set of nutcases that control these companies.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 18, 2023, 10:45:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties.
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Frankly they're the exception that proves the rule.
We could post all day about people and groups pushing from the left, whereas the right has a dozen angry dads that post on Twitter.
Notice he said no similar pressure, not no pressure. You're worrying about the guy who leaves a bag of flaming poop on your doorstep, while another guy is burning your house down.
No-one takes the BroSR seriously, and they have zero power. The nutty lefties have the ear of corporations and politicians.
Most of them aren't dads.
Also, while obviously the right-wing collectivist identitarians are too stupid to accumulate the kind of massive power that the left has, that doesn't mean they're not a problem for a relatively small group like the OSR. They're trying their absolute hardest to infiltrate and enter into the arena of the OSR, and just like Wokists want to fundamentally change it.
Consider this: Wokists join D&D groups, including attempting to join the OSR, though in fact they hate D&D and the OSR and all it stands for, so they join it to change it.
The BroSR similarly hate the OSR and all it stands for. Even their name is an attempt at Entryism, but their philosophy is that NO ONE should play OSR games, the only game that's acceptable to them is AD&D 1e. Their vision of the OSR is one where people are discouraged from making new OSR games or playing new OSR games.
It's exactly the same human garbage.
Quote from: Zelen on November 18, 2023, 11:27:44 AM
I honestly can't get worked up over a few guys on Twitter. If we start seeing them take over WotC, Paizo, or other big name (for RPGs) companies then I'll start thinking about it. Although it'd be tough to be worse than the current set of nutcases that control these companies.
I don't care what happens to WotC or Paizo. I do care very much what happens to the OSR, the most successful and best indie design movement in the history of RPGs, which they explicitly want to destroy.
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis. Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it. A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases. In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.
Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in. I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small. the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome. If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend. I will even accept Frenchmen.
Quote from: ChrisFox on November 18, 2023, 10:35:48 AM
I'm with you all the way. I don't want any politics. We grognards remember when the right held sway. The religious right came after us hard. Jack Chick was cited by every police department in the United States.
As a Catholic and a game lover, I was on TWO of Jack Chick's hit lists!
Between the left wing purity testers and the right wing purity testers, the worst are the centrist purity testers. You can believe anything you want as long as you don't believe it too strongly.
Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.
Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.
Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
Exactly correct. I'm always shocked at how hard this is to understand. The neo-nazis want to eliminate the very same freedoms the far left wishes to eliminate.
Just because the Holocaust denying antisemites are also against the far left (also antisemitic!) doesn't make them any more welcome into the OSR or any other sane, discerning space.
Quote from: Brad on November 18, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.
Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.
Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.
You're wasting your breath, this thread is a Limbic response with post hoc reasoning.
The idea that Neo-Nazis would line up in their hundreds (an international recruiting drive I'd guess) to play Elf games so they can spew hate is baffling.
Just because the Far Left and Right are ends of the horseshoe, doesn't mean they have the same psychological makeup. The Far Right LARP by marching in uniforms, not playing a gender queer Catboy in an Elf game. They watch sports at a bar instead of lurking on Reddit. They want a return to a past that may not even have existed, rather than a revolution to bring changes.
The BroSR would be lucky to scrape together enough members for a touch-Football game. I don't have Twitter, so trying to find their sordid racist shenanigans just lead me to videos of a guy repeatedly cheating at a single player game, which is sad but not Mein Kamph.
Even if they sit around a table in their basement playing Godlike, but with the good guys and bad guys flipped, they have no power over the hobby. Unlike the Woke shit, normies won't play lip service to Right Wing hate speech the way they do for the Left.
I have been participating in this hobby for 43 years. I have gamed with all kinds of people, those I agree with and those I do not. I do not shy away from disagreement and am happy to debate. The prpblem with leftists is they cannot tolerate debate. It is their way or the highway. They are creatures devoid of logic who cannot entertain a different opinion. What everyone describes as the 'far left' or the 'far right' are ALL actually leftists. Leftists all eat each other eventually. It is a death spiral that they cannot resist spinning.
I have never heard of a BroSR or whatever the fuck it is. If they do nothing but attack like rabid dogs then they are not on the right at all. They are another leftist group stirring a different shit pot. I don't have and have never had, Twitter, Facebook, or any of that crap and don't really look at Reddit either. That is probably why I haven't heard about this stupid crap until it was discussed here. That is enough to tell me that they have no power in the real world. All these groups that keep getting labeled as far right are bullshit when you apply the simple standards of right leaning people to them. These are the values real right wingers cherish:
FREEDOM
ACCOUNTABILITY
If the group in question does not display these values then they are simply leftists in sheeps clothing. These values are to a leftist as sunlight is to a vampire.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 18, 2023, 10:39:34 PM
I have been participating in this hobby for 43 years. I have gamed with all kinds of people, those I agree with and those I do not. I do not shy away from disagreement and am happy to debate. The prpblem with leftists is they cannot tolerate debate. It is their way or the highway. They are creatures devoid of logic who cannot entertain a different opinion. What everyone describes as the 'far left' or the 'far right' are ALL actually leftists. Leftists all eat each other eventually. It is a death spiral that they cannot resist spinning.
I have never heard of a BroSR or whatever the fuck it is. If they do nothing but attack like rabid dogs then they are not on the right at all. They are another leftist group stirring a different shit pot. I don't have and have never had, Twitter, Facebook, or any of that crap and don't really look at Reddit either. That is probably why I haven't heard about this stupid crap until it was discussed here. That is enough to tell me that they have no power in the real world. All these groups that keep getting labeled as far right are bullshit when you apply the simple standards of right leaning people to them. These are the values real right wingers cherish:
FREEDOM
ACCOUNTABILITY
If the group in question does not display these values then they are simply leftists in sheeps clothing. These values are to a leftist as sunlight is to a vampire.
The greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.
Wanna see what an actual far right person thinks of playing elfgames? Go ask Mat Walsh, bet the answer is you shouldn't because witches, demons, etc or at the very least you should have stoped playing when you became an adult because reasons.
QuoteThe greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.
That's not a trick of left really but natural result of trying to use linear description of like 5D (or more) space of political ideologies.
Political compasses are using two axis, and it's still not enough really. And of course Left and Right on themselves are not describing anything specific aside of opposing forces - so they are most useless descriptors.
QuoteYou're wasting your breath, this thread is a Limbic response with post hoc reasoning.
The idea that Neo-Nazis would line up in their hundreds (an international recruiting drive I'd guess) to play Elf games so they can spew hate is baffling.
Just because the Far Left and Right are ends of the horseshoe, doesn't mean they have the same psychological makeup. The Far Right LARP by marching in uniforms, not playing a gender queer Catboy in an Elf game. They watch sports at a bar instead of lurking on Reddit. They want a return to a past that may not even have existed, rather than a revolution to bring changes.
The BroSR would be lucky to scrape together enough members for a touch-Football game. I don't have Twitter, so trying to find their sordid racist shenanigans just lead me to videos of a guy repeatedly cheating at a single player game, which is sad but not Mein Kamph.
Even if they sit around a table in their basement playing Godlike, but with the good guys and bad guys flipped, they have no power over the hobby. Unlike the Woke shit, normies won't play lip service to Right Wing hate speech the way they do for the Left.
Yeah this is like watching kindergarten vendetta. Lower middle class of OSR raging against absolute plankton of OSR, because they want to destroy OSR with their wicked fascism. Trust me it's very important and crucial for surviving of our genre. Meh. Like watching Cartman fistfights in South Park.
You know for all Jeffro boasting I'd expect wokesters would get on his trial already, but he truly is nothing, no worthy of attention. And even wokesters knows it - so Pundit, Venger and Macris are doomed to stay faces of OSR fascism for unforeseeable future ;)
Nobody took it seriously years ago when the far left started creeping into our communities and hobbies. Now look where we are.
I still don't think that there's enough far right extremist to fill out a football team roster but they've been used as a wedge to destroy communities in the past. A handful of people spouting off about white superiority was all it took to wreck 8chan and bring 4chan to it's knees. All it took was the false flag event in Charlottesville to justify the 2020 bullshit.
Also, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic.
QuoteAlso, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic.
Taking aside question did they really embraced there - what even modern edgelords born from chans, most of them probably spreading much more edgy memes and texts that they actually believe had in common with busy-bodied Baptist Karens from 80s.
Putting them together in "far-right" is well good proof that left and right are useless categories.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 07:45:25 AM
QuoteAlso, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic.
Taking aside question did they really embraced there - what even modern edgelords born from chans, most of them probably spreading much more edgy memes and texts that they actually believe had in common with busy-bodied Baptist Karens from 80s.
Putting them together in "far-right" is well good proof that left and right are useless categories.
Lets be clear, 90% of the racism on 4chan was black guys larping to get a rise out of each other. There was no "far right" for the most part.
It wasn't just the busy-bodies Baptist Karens that were the satanic panic. It was police departments and school systems that were using the excuse that D&D and Motley Crue led to human sacrifice and suicide pacts. It wasn't a Karen that took our entire collection of books and note for out campaign when I was 12, it was a PD Sergent. It was the vice principle that went through our Battletech stuff and destroyed most of it before Mark called his dad in and got him to stop. A close friend of mine who was a metal head and a skater had his skate board (that he was carrying, not riding) and his backpack full of tapes taken from him by a local sheriff's deputy under the guise of investigating satanic crimes. It was Republicans in congress that were raising the flag and giving the satanic panic teeth that caused this, not some frumpy moms.
Yeah, I'm still a little bitter over it.
QuoteLets be clear, 90% of the racism on 4chan was black guys larping to get a rise out of each other. There was no "far right" for the most part.
That's quite possible.
Makes whole idea to purify community even more pointless endeavour. Edgelords won't be hold.
QuoteIt wasn't just the busy-bodies Baptist Karens that were the satanic panic. It was police departments and school systems that were using the excuse that D&D and Motley Crue led to human sacrifice and suicide pacts. It wasn't a Karen that took our entire collection of books and note for out campaign when I was 12, it was a PD Sergent. It was the vice principle that went through our Battletech stuff and destroyed most of it before Mark called his dad in and got him to stop. A close friend of mine who was a metal head and a skater had his skate board (that he was carrying, not riding) and his backpack full of tapes taken from him by a local sheriff's deputy under the guise of investigating satanic crimes. It was Republicans in congress that were raising the flag and giving the satanic panic teeth that caused this, not some frumpy moms.
That's quite interesting - such examples of government local or federal interviewing did not appear so far in Satanic Panic discussions. I'm Polish so it's utterly beyond my cultural zone. I thought it was mostly local Churches not policemen. Which region was it?
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 08:30:44 AM
That's quite interesting - such examples of government local or federal interviewing did not appear so far in Satanic Panic discussions. I'm Polish so it's utterly beyond my cultural zone. I thought it was mostly local Churches not policemen. Which region was it?
The first incident was in 87 in Utah and the other two were 89 and 90 in North Carolina. (Yes, the bulk of the 'panic' was over but it still lingers in places today.) This was not uncommon in semi-rural areas in the US with many things of a "moral" nature. Usually, the authority figure would have a talk with the parents and then the parents would confiscate but every now and then they would take direct action. It was more common to happen to children of poor families as well.
There are videos on line of prominent national leaders in the US making public statements about the infiltration of satanism in the youth. Yes, much of this was driven by churches but there was enough non church stuff going on.
Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis. Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it. A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases. In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.
Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in. I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small. the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome. If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend. I will even accept Frenchmen.
That's about as bad though, if you're right, the OSR will get filled with hundreds of Feds. Who have even more motivation to try to publicize the thing they claim to be fighting so they can continue to justify their own jobs and the government's agenda of pretending that a group of hick nazis are more dangerous than the Identitarian Left that are in all the major areas of power.
Quote from: Brad on November 18, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.
Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.
Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.
The Identitarian "Left" and the Identitarian "Right" are exactly morally equivalent. In terms of actual ability and power, of course, the Identitarian Left are far more dangerous, because the Identitian Right are a gang of pathetic incompetents.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
Should we be conflating right-wing extremists (whatever they are) with neo-nazis, anti-semites, identitarian white supremes? This is what the left does, especially our politicians and the media. They make that cognitive leap in order to paint everyone ideologically against them with the same brush. Oh, you want lower taxes and fiscal responsibility? Obviously, you're an extreme right-wing Republican and racist!
Sure, there's some overlap... but far less than the left. Don't play their game, don't use their framing. Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from. And it may just save our hobby.
[taking a page out of Pundit's book] If you enjoyed my thoughts on this, which you should because they're correct... buy my RPG books!
Thank you,
VS
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 19, 2023, 09:58:13 AM
Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis. Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it. A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases. In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.
Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in. I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small. the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome. If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend. I will even accept Frenchmen.
That's about as bad though, if you're right, the OSR will get filled with hundreds of Feds. Who have even more motivation to try to publicize the thing they claim to be fighting so they can continue to justify their own jobs and the government's agenda of pretending that a group of hick nazis are more dangerous than the Identitarian Left that are in all the major areas of power.
Yes, it's worse in many ways. As I've stated previously, I'm on board with gatekeeping those that are here to cause trouble.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 19, 2023, 10:14:02 AM
Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from.
The word 'extremism' is understood as negative by the majority of people, left or right. Don't use it to describe things you believe are reasonable, pick or create another term.
And yes, I agree we don't need tribalism of any political leaning drowning out the hobby. Sadly, many humans need a crusade to feel better about themselves.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 05:59:13 AM
QuoteThe greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.
That's not a trick of left really but natural result of trying to use linear description of like 5D (or more) space of political ideologies.
Political compasses are using two axis, and it's still not enough really. And of course Left and Right on themselves are not describing anything specific aside of opposing forces - so they are most useless descriptors.
Let's see if we can find a meaningful difference:
Total control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia? All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this
There's a reason China (once it allowed some private property [albeit under control of the state]) looks eerily similar to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
To bring this back to the topic we should be more like Poland and gatekeep our hobbies from all types of leftists, identitarians and authoritarians.
QuoteTotal control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia? All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this
When you try to describe oppressive regimes in language of oppression enemies, then sure they all gonna look the same.
But even then I could totally make differences only I am not sure what is third in this equation aside of Fascism and Nazism. You mean general western Left or modern Chinese regime?
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 05:05:57 PM
QuoteTotal control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia? All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this
When you try to describe oppressive regimes in language of oppression enemies, then sure they all gonna look the same.
But even then I could totally make differences only I am not sure what is third in this equation aside of Fascism and Nazism. You mean general western Left or modern Chinese regime?
Have you tried reading it in the context of the quotes above it?
RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about? People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.
I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.
Who buys and plays more tabletop RPGs? Left-wingers or Right-wingers?
Quote from: Glak on November 20, 2023, 02:57:33 PM
RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about? People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.
I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.
Searching Twitter for #BrOSR will turn up much of it; blogs include https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/, https://jeffro.wordpress.com/, https://bdubsanddragons.blogspot.com/, and jonmollison.com
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 20, 2023, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Glak on November 20, 2023, 02:57:33 PM
RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about? People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.
I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.
Searching Twitter for #BrOSR will turn up much of it; blogs include https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/, https://jeffro.wordpress.com/, https://bdubsanddragons.blogspot.com/, and jonmollison.com
It's all just middle aged dads wearing sunglasses, and calling everyone that hasn't been gaming for 30+ years chuds. I think what we want to see is these examples of them goose-stepping through Berlin.
Well yeah we don't NEED it. But it makes the discussion insane in ways that we couldn't arrive at if we didn't introduce politics.
Getting clawed by a Bugbear isn't just damage. It's MAGICAL damage.
I'll close the book just as quickly if I see a bunch of right wing bullshit as I do when I see left wing woke dogshit.
I don't want politically aligned books, I just want good rpgs that are being made by people who love RPGs and aren't just activists.
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
Quote from: Valatar on November 17, 2023, 07:48:50 PM
We've never needed political edgelords in a hobby about playing games. But the unfortunate fact is that the leftists will go out of their way to pillory creators who don't specifically pander to them, citing "inclusion" or "representation". There's no similar pressure coming from the righties. So what do we get? An industry tipping leftwards from the path of least resistance. Just look at Steve Jackson: the minute twitter stopped being a leftist echo chamber, he announced that it was full of fascists and ran away from it. After years of constant positive reinforcement from the echo chamber for sticking rainbows randomly around his products, any kind of dissent whatsoever sent him right over the edge. The industry has come to believe that the steady background hum of the wokes in social media is the normal status quo of the world, and have set up their products accordingly.
The right is just way more vocal in their anti-wokism everywhere else to completely make up for all the leftist woke crap they put into their rpg books and some people are so political minded to the right to have become his own form of wokist rhetoric. When a person feels the need to bring up politics in every video, every podcast, on Twitter X, and chooses to get into social media arguments over political view points then that person is just as bad as the woke person has become. Any kind of extremism shouldn't be part of gaming.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 19, 2023, 10:14:02 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead. Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators. For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity? That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.
And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.
Should we be conflating right-wing extremists (whatever they are) with neo-nazis, anti-semites, identitarian white supremes? This is what the left does, especially our politicians and the media. They make that cognitive leap in order to paint everyone ideologically against them with the same brush. Oh, you want lower taxes and fiscal responsibility? Obviously, you're an extreme right-wing Republican and racist!
Sure, there's some overlap... but far less than the left. Don't play their game, don't use their framing. Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from. And it may just save our hobby.
[taking a page out of Pundit's book] If you enjoyed my thoughts on this, which you should because they're correct... buy my RPG books!
Thank you,
VS
Wokes: believe that non-white people are inherently disadvantaged against whites
Nazis: believe that non-white people are inherently disadvantaged against whites
Wokes: believe that people of different colors couldn't possibly ever understand each other, and should stick to their own kind
Nazis: Same
Wokes: disapprove of interracial relationships as problematic
Nazis: Same
Wokes: Think America and other nations need to allow for racial segregation
Nazis: Same
Wokes: Think that Jews are oppressors who deserve whatever happens to them
Nazis: do I have to say it?
You know who doesn't believe any of those things? The vast majority of normal people. Which of course includes:
Wokes: Call people who defy them because they believe in actual western values "White supremacists"
Nazis: Call people who defy them because they believe in actual western values "woke grifters"
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 03:01:02 PM
Who buys and plays more tabletop RPGs? Left-wingers or Right-wingers?
Normal people.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Oh dear lord.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.
All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.
Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. :)
I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs. I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms. I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas. I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 21, 2023, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.
All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.
Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. :)
I'm not sure what you could define as "identitarianism" in this context. Do you mean someone who thinks that race is the single most important feature of an individual and of a social order?
Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs. I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms. I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas. I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.
Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:59:00 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs. I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms. I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas. I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.
Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.
The thing is...what do you mean by incursion? Producing materials? Suddenly multiplying to a degree they are at every gaming table? Making some videos and liking the same things? This seems like more of a concern about what an enemy (leftists) would think if they saw hard right wingers liking the OSR instead of a concern about an actual takeover or incursion from the hard right. It reminds me of articles in lefty outlets (and there are alot of these articles) about how working out is being "taken over" by hard right wing nationalists. It is being concerned about having different color socks on while some dude is shooting at you with a flamethrower IMO.
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 18, 2023, 06:06:52 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 17, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
I prefer the term "identists". -ist em right back!
>:( Ugh, is Apple commodifying teeth doctors now?! ;D
Wait? Wernt they allready? :o
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Keep in mind that some of these so-called BrOSR and extreme right types are very likely Leftists pulling a false flag maneuver. We have been seeing it with other hate groups. And it is very a tactic of the woke.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:59:00 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 21, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
I am not quite ready to worry too much about all the hard right people in RPGs. I think my focus and concern (what of it I can muster) will stay concerned with the people who actually have some power in this country regarding policy, laws, and massive rearrangement of societal norms. I have no idea if the right side of that coin is simply incompetent...I just know someone with a whole lot of money and power is pushing the leftists and their agendas. I will worry about the leftists and consider the other side old dudes ranting.
Yes, the Identitarian Left has all the power and is backed by a traitorous Establishment. And generally speaking over all, the threat level of the comparatively pathetic Identitarian "Right" is so miniscule as to be laughable, they have neither the money nor the political or social power.
But you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.
The thing is...what do you mean by incursion? Producing materials? Suddenly multiplying to a degree they are at every gaming table? Making some videos and liking the same things? This seems like more of a concern about what an enemy (leftists) would think if they saw hard right wingers liking the OSR instead of a concern about an actual takeover or incursion from the hard right. It reminds me of articles in lefty outlets (and there are alot of these articles) about how working out is being "taken over" by hard right wing nationalists. It is being concerned about having different color socks on while some dude is shooting at you with a flamethrower IMO.
No, wrong. We're seeing a perfect example of what's happening with the BroSR. Antisemitic identitarians who have created a facade of being "OSR lifters" but are actully ANTI-OSR, and want to essentially undo the entire movement and replace it into a "Only play AD&D1e" Sect where people will feel safe to engage in neo-nazi conversations without actually having to produce anything of value.
They DON'T NEED to make gaming materials, because what they push instead is a "lifestyle" ("do you even lift bro", "we're the real hardcore", etc etc); nor do they need to make videos because small-time OSR youtubers (mostly would-be "influencer" types that don't actually design games) will give their cult leaders a platform in exchange for the promise of getting the members of the BroSR to subscribe to their channel, and after that they're trapped of their own volition; they will stand with everything and anything the BroSR does or says, because otherwise they might lose followers; and likewise, the influencers now won't themselves say or do anything on their channels and social media that would risk upsetting their BroSR masters.
So without producing ANYTHING, the BroSR has been able to destablize the OSR in a major way, while their membership is composed ENTIRELY of people who hate and do not play OSR games, and many people who don't care about ANY games, they're just along for the exciting opportunity to hate Jews in public.
Quote from: Omega on November 21, 2023, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?
The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt. It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.
Keep in mind that some of these so-called BrOSR and extreme right types are very likely Leftists pulling a false flag maneuver. We have been seeing it with other hate groups. And it is very a tactic of the woke.
I suppose that might be possible, though I haven't seen any meaningful evidence so far. And for his part, Jeffro has been associated with the racist anti-semitic identitarian Right for a long time now. His first book was published by Vox Day.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 07:15:22 PM
nor do they need to make videos because small-time OSR youtubers (mostly would-be "influencer" types that don't actually design games)
Are these people actually influencers though? That is, do they actually have any significant influence? How many people in the hobby even know who they are? I am a bit disconnected but I had never even heard of the BroSR before hearing you mention it on your Youtube channel? How much influence do they actually have in OSR circles?
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:55:59 AM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 21, 2023, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.
All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.
Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. :)
I'm not sure what you could define as "identitarianism" in this context. Do you mean someone who thinks that race is the single most important feature of an individual and of a social order?
Well for "Identitarian," Collins Dictionary has, "concerned with promoting the interests of one's own cultural group"
But generally, if you're going to argue against a what someone believes, it might be a good idea to actually find out from the person what they believe. So in this case, John Morgan posted on Counter Currents the following definition, "Identitarianism is essentially the belief that the various elements which go to make up one's ethnicity – the language, culture, traditions, religions, and so on – are unique, valuable, and worth preserving. Biological factors are important as well, but identitarianism goes beyond race alone."
Once again, with this as an operating definition of identitarianism, most men in the West 100 years ago would have been identitarians. It's fine if you disagree with that definition, but then we're playing a word game. It's the actual semantic content of a proposition that matters. Given all of that, someone could easily affirm this proposition, and not be a Yahtzee, a KKK member, a Holocaust-denier, or have any other unusual political affiliations or historical claims.
I would go further and suggest that Morgan's basic concept of identitarianism is historically typical, with any form of negation of the basic principle being highly unusual.
Quote from: yosemitemike on November 22, 2023, 02:02:00 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 07:15:22 PM
nor do they need to make videos because small-time OSR youtubers (mostly would-be "influencer" types that don't actually design games)
Are these people actually influencers though? That is, do they actually have any significant influence? How many people in the hobby even know who they are? I am a bit disconnected but I had never even heard of the BroSR before hearing you mention it on your Youtube channel? How much influence do they actually have in OSR circles?
Well, in the OSR not as much as the designers, thank Christ. That's an unusual characteristic of the OSR, compared to 5e for example, where youtube influencers are vastly more influential than any of the writers/designers.
There never used to really be any significant OSR youtubers that weren't already designers (Grimjim, me and Venger were the main ones for a while); the closest maybe was Tenkar. But then gradually the influencer culture started to filter in, with dudes like Aaron the Pedantic. And this past year or so we got a whole bunch of them. And while many of their channels are very interesting and produce good content, it does seem like they are changing the nature of the OSR as a movement.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 22, 2023, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:55:59 AM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 21, 2023, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.
All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.
Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. :)
I'm not sure what you could define as "identitarianism" in this context. Do you mean someone who thinks that race is the single most important feature of an individual and of a social order?
Well for "Identitarian," Collins Dictionary has, "concerned with promoting the interests of one's own cultural group"
But generally, if you're going to argue against a what someone believes, it might be a good idea to actually find out from the person what they believe. So in this case, John Morgan posted on Counter Currents the following definition, "Identitarianism is essentially the belief that the various elements which go to make up one's ethnicity – the language, culture, traditions, religions, and so on – are unique, valuable, and worth preserving. Biological factors are important as well, but identitarianism goes beyond race alone."
Once again, with this as an operating definition of identitarianism, most men in the West 100 years ago would have been identitarians. It's fine if you disagree with that definition, but then we're playing a word game. It's the actual semantic content of a proposition that matters. Given all of that, someone could easily affirm this proposition, and not be a Yahtzee, a KKK member, a Holocaust-denier, or have any other unusual political affiliations or historical claims.
I would go further and suggest that Morgan's basic concept of identitarianism is historically typical, with any form of negation of the basic principle being highly unusual.
As a rule, in practical common language, "Identitarian" means someone (typically self-identifying as conservative) who places RACE above all other factors. In contrast for example to a civic nationalist, who places national identity over everything else but does not see 'nationality' as being limited to race.
Could you have Identitarians that aren't racist? I suppose in theory. But in practice the racial obsession is something that marks them as separate from regular nationalists.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2023, 03:48:27 AM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 22, 2023, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 21, 2023, 11:55:59 AM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 21, 2023, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 20, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:51:46 PM
I think something Pundit has missed is that the number of right identitarians and actual Yahtzees are very different. You can be one without being the other. Most men in the West 100 years ago would be in this category by default.
If someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Fair enough. I suppose you can assign that type of standard if you want to. But I would submit that just as Libertarianism or Stalinism are political philosophies, so too is Identitarianism. A Libertarian could accept a market failure in some particular situation as being the cause of an economic downturn, but still advocate government non-intervention in the economy on moral grounds. Someone could accept that the Holodomor occurred and still be a Stalinist.
All three of those examples you gave are independent of Identitarianism as a political philosophy. Like all other political philosophies, it also holds to certain priori commitments, independent of claims about historical events, or hypothetical involvement of people in political movements.
Also, that's a lovely garden you have, Pundit. :)
I'm not sure what you could define as "identitarianism" in this context. Do you mean someone who thinks that race is the single most important feature of an individual and of a social order?
Well for "Identitarian," Collins Dictionary has, "concerned with promoting the interests of one's own cultural group"
But generally, if you're going to argue against a what someone believes, it might be a good idea to actually find out from the person what they believe. So in this case, John Morgan posted on Counter Currents the following definition, "Identitarianism is essentially the belief that the various elements which go to make up one's ethnicity – the language, culture, traditions, religions, and so on – are unique, valuable, and worth preserving. Biological factors are important as well, but identitarianism goes beyond race alone."
Once again, with this as an operating definition of identitarianism, most men in the West 100 years ago would have been identitarians. It's fine if you disagree with that definition, but then we're playing a word game. It's the actual semantic content of a proposition that matters. Given all of that, someone could easily affirm this proposition, and not be a Yahtzee, a KKK member, a Holocaust-denier, or have any other unusual political affiliations or historical claims.
I would go further and suggest that Morgan's basic concept of identitarianism is historically typical, with any form of negation of the basic principle being highly unusual.
As a rule, in practical common language, "Identitarian" means someone (typically self-identifying as conservative) who places RACE above all other factors. In contrast for example to a civic nationalist, who places national identity over everything else but does not see 'nationality' as being limited to race.
Could you have Identitarians that aren't racist? I suppose in theory. But in practice the racial obsession is something that marks them as separate from regular nationalists.
That's interesting. I am not finding any sources that corroborate that definition. Since I provided two, would you mind linking at least one?
You know, it's kind of odd. Typically when you have a term that people ever self-identify with, you can typically see come common ground in how the term is used. For example, I am not a Christian. So, if I were to look for a definition of it, Merriam-Webster seems as good as any to me, "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." But, if instead I go look for one from someone who professes faith in Christianity, say https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-a-christian-11541516.html, the author actually says of an almost identical definition, "That's actually quite helpful..."
Here's another example. You seem to be of a political persuasion that's relatively similar to Enlightenment-era style Classical Liberalism. I apologize if I have misunderstood your position, but grant the example for a moment. Let's say that I disagree with you. I could say all kinds of nasty things like, Classical Liberalism means believing that it's okay to destroy the planet to make the economy grow. Or that Classical Liberals believe private people should be able to own nuclear weapons. Or Classical Liberals believe it is fine to shoot someone if they sneeze while on the Liberal's property. But if, instead, I provided a working definition, and then consulted someone who is a Classical Liberal, perhaps you, perhaps Ron Paul, we can then begin to have productive dialogue from that point forward.
You see what's happening here? We're establishing a baseline definition for a term based on common agreement from people who do and do not hold a given position. If people can do that, it allows them to be objective, and then to proceed with honest discussion about a topic, even among ideological opponents. To refuse to do that is merely to engage in character assassination and emotional attacks.
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
QuoteIf someone is denying the holocausts on twitter, or talking about how Jews secretly control the gay pride movement and the BLM movement to attack white men, you may not have a literal membership card, but you're basically a real Nazi.
Only... not?
Nazism is quite specific political ideology that does not equal prejudice against Jews. And of course you can be prejudiced againt Jews, and plenty other people, while holding very very un-Nazi political ideologies. After spending few decades in various political discussions I think various prejudices against various groups are rampant everything. And yes also among libertarians and aligned liberal conservatists. That of course because a) as I said you need another trappings of ideology: rampant militarism, blood-and-soil attitude towards nationality, imperialism to spread ethnic presence of own people, corporatism blocking class warfare, social darwinism both in external politics (see imperialism) and internal - like eugenics, one party totalism, duce like leadership, that's keeping aspects that could be interpreted more as specific German culture trappings.
Most of people bearing antisemitic sentiments in modern USA does not fit under that moniker. Mostly they are someone, and from my contact I had with broOSR I think they generally fit in this category - anti-globalists, close to paleolibertarianism, and as usually with anti-globalists full of conspiratory thinking. Where disdain for Jews came from seeing them precisely as part of collectivist, globalist estabilishment. Of course it's a risky way - and those people commonly fall into - all official history was globalist Jewish-masonic-jesuitic-babylonian false flag, or other bullshit, based only on their strong irrational desire to consider everything official to always be a lie.
And one can condemn it without falling into "everyone I hate is a nazi" meme. Especially since most of broOSR are generally obnoxious assholes on all fields. Honestly reducing all type of ethnic prejudice into literally Waffen-SS is indeed very woke thing to do. Someone so proud from his medieval authentic works should know it, because medieval period was ripe with prejudice. And yet distinctly not-Nazi.
QuoteBut you don't need millions of Soros bucks to take over smaller cultural spaces that are already by their nature counter-cultural. And the OSR is certainly a small enough cultural space that an organized entryist incursion by Identitarians of either stripe is a threat.
And yet only entrance of broOSR of any significance was small tour of Jeffro about 1:1 time, and that's it. I get you are angry for whole Twitter thing, but let's be real, you are like medium fish in OSR pond. BroOSR are plankton. And they do not seem to get really better. By far there is much more wokesters in OSR, than bros, and that's among serious players.
QuoteKeep in mind that some of these so-called BrOSR and extreme right types are very likely Leftists pulling a false flag maneuver. We have been seeing it with other hate groups. And it is very a tactic of the woke.
This is ironically simmilar to mentality I pointed out up in this post, for anti-globalist conspiratists.
Everything that does not fit your manichean division is false-flag by our enemies.
Now sure like we know such thing happens - we know for instance well that nationalist parties in Germany were highly infiltrated to the point when many had probably more agents than actual neo-nazis. However well that still need evidence, and I spent enough time discussion weirdos from left and right and libertarian and authoritarian side over internets to know that basically every possible ideological combination will found it followers sooner or later.
QuoteNo, wrong. We're seeing a perfect example of what's happening with the BroSR. Antisemitic identitarians who have created a facade of being "OSR lifters" but are actully ANTI-OSR, and want to essentially undo the entire movement and replace it into a "Only play AD&D1e"
TBH why I was delving into OSR Discords and what not, I noticed that it's common among AD&D players to feel disdain towards BX and it's derivatives. Plenty of calling them "no-games". Aaron the Pedantic Discord shifted quite strongly this way.
Now I understand from publisher perspective people who want to play OS- and not new things based on it - are dangerous for business, but in terms of some social dynamics it's quite clear all proponents of old D&D variants and their derivatives are in one bucket, and esoteric distinctions between fractions are irrelevant for any outsider.
But honestly it's quite normal when there is competition in entertainment especially comunal one - like various games - RPG, card, video and so on - any multiplayer that people gonna peddle superiority of their own favourite subset - especially against those subsets that are relatively close. That's why edition wars are often heated compared to more general discussion.
But still broOSR did basically jackshit to dismantle OSR movement, other that tweeting "Gygax King, BECMI sucks". If that's this big dismantling movement then..
Quotenor do they need to make videos because small-time OSR youtubers (mostly would-be "influencer" types that don't actually design games) will give their cult leaders a platform in exchange for the promise of getting the members of the BroSR to subscribe to their channel, and after that they're trapped of their own volition; they will stand with everything and anything the BroSR does or says, because otherwise they might lose followers; and likewise, the influencers now won't themselves say or do anything on their channels and social media that would risk upsetting their BroSR masters.
QuoteSo without producing ANYTHING, the BroSR has been able to destablize the OSR in a major way, while their membership is composed ENTIRELY of people who hate and do not play OSR games, and many people who don't care about ANY games, they're just along for the exciting opportunity to hate Jews in public.
Ok and what previously non-bro channels bend this way? Because from what I've seen whole bro community seems to be circlejerk of few dozens men. That's not a lot even for small youtubers.
Where is this MAJOR destabilisation?
QuoteThe solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
Considering Western Civilisation was build on various authoritarian regimes and basically most of modern ideologies seems rooted in movements centred to destroy authorities of old in name of muh freedom, I kinda feel doubt about branding enemies of Western Civilisation under wide moniker of authoritarians.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 19, 2023, 11:59:54 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 19, 2023, 10:14:02 AM
Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from.
The word 'extremism' is understood as negative by the majority of people, left or right. Don't use it to describe things you believe are reasonable, pick or create another term.
And yes, I agree we don't need tribalism of any political leaning drowning out the hobby. Sadly, many humans need a crusade to feel better about themselves.
Good point. I was using "extremism" from their point of view. They'll use "right-wing extremist" to describe Mitt Romney supporters if he decides to run again. So, we can use other terms, accept whatever dumbass words they decide to use - embracing them and making them work for us, or both (variety of tactics).
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
No, I pretty much totally agree with your definition; most accurately, the Woke and the BroSR are both collectivists (as are both Nazis and Communists). The nature of Western Civilization is such that the traditional values of civilization do not depend on race or ethnicity as such, but on a set of ideals that people either embrace or reject.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 24, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
No, I pretty much totally agree with your definition; most accurately, the Woke and the BroSR are both collectivists (as are both Nazis and Communists). The nature of Western Civilization is such that the traditional values of civilization do not depend on race or ethnicity as such, but on a set of ideals that people either embrace or reject.
Presumably then, men such as Aristotle and other Greek speakers who used the word "barbarian" as they meant the word would not qualify as Western? I would assume this would apply equally to the United States' founding generation as well. It would seem that Western Civilization itself under this proposition nation concept is rather young, dating to perhaps the early 20th century at earliest, preceded by earlier alien civilizations. Or do I have your meaning wrong?
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:53:45 AM
We need to treat the Antisemites and white-favoring race-collectivists the same way we treat entryists to the hobby who are pro-Antifa, pro-BLM or pro-"MAP"; with extreme prejudice.
Fucking Whitey better never imagine he can act in the EXACT SAME ethnic self-interest that EVERY other ethnic group on Earth can do!!!
LOL.
Sounds like those BROsr kids are having fun getting you riled up and in doing so, you're only generating attention for them. I've never heard of them outside your posts. A few more tirades and I'm gonna have to check them out
As for the collectivists in the hobby, it's just a reflection of our shattered Western society. That's not going away, instead it's going to get worse. There will never be some kumbaya coming together because ALL the social and economic incentives point toward greater tribalism.
The RPG community is fracturing the same way.
And no surprise. RPGs are a social hobby and humans will gather with those who they feel belong in their circle and thus, form circles of like-minded people.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 26, 2023, 03:39:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 24, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
No, I pretty much totally agree with your definition; most accurately, the Woke and the BroSR are both collectivists (as are both Nazis and Communists). The nature of Western Civilization is such that the traditional values of civilization do not depend on race or ethnicity as such, but on a set of ideals that people either embrace or reject.
Presumably then, men such as Aristotle and other Greek speakers who used the word "barbarian" as they meant the word would not qualify as Western? I would assume this would apply equally to the United States' founding generation as well. It would seem that Western Civilization itself under this proposition nation concept is rather young, dating to perhaps the early 20th century at earliest, preceded by earlier alien civilizations. Or do I have your meaning wrong?
You have the meaning wrong.
Western Civilization traces its roots to Christendom (which became Roman and had synthesized Greek philosophy into it as it expanded) and to the Germanic cultures that converted in the centuries after.
It is essentially a gestalt of the Christian, Roman, Greek and Germanic cultures that came to exist in Western Europe and eventually spread across the globe via colonization during and following the Renaissance. It is by definition multi-ethnic just as Rome and Christianity were multi-ethnic.
The Collectivists are fundamentally and pridefully elitist (they are the enlightened ones... "we are the ones we've been waiting for") and racist (all those people not like us need special privileges just to get by) based on the fallacy that mankind can be "perfected" (and they, of course, are already more perfect and failing to recognize that makes you fallen and imperfect.
Western civilization broadly rejects their "divine right of kings" claims and so it must be torn down by dividing people against each other and replaced with a system that acknowledges their elite status.
That's why to them Orcs must represent black people (because the traditional depiction of orcs is how THEY see black people) and all their other stupid identitarian garbage shows up in their RPGs. They need everyone divided so they can conquer.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 26, 2023, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 26, 2023, 03:39:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 24, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
No, I pretty much totally agree with your definition; most accurately, the Woke and the BroSR are both collectivists (as are both Nazis and Communists). The nature of Western Civilization is such that the traditional values of civilization do not depend on race or ethnicity as such, but on a set of ideals that people either embrace or reject.
Presumably then, men such as Aristotle and other Greek speakers who used the word "barbarian" as they meant the word would not qualify as Western? I would assume this would apply equally to the United States' founding generation as well. It would seem that Western Civilization itself under this proposition nation concept is rather young, dating to perhaps the early 20th century at earliest, preceded by earlier alien civilizations. Or do I have your meaning wrong?
You have the meaning wrong.
Western Civilization traces its roots to Christendom (which became Roman and had synthesized Greek philosophy into it as it expanded) and to the Germanic cultures that converted in the centuries after.
It is essentially a gestalt of the Christian, Roman, Greek and Germanic cultures that came to exist in Western Europe and eventually spread across the globe via colonization during and following the Renaissance. It is by definition multi-ethnic just as Rome and Christianity were multi-ethnic.
The Collectivists are fundamentally and pridefully elitist (they are the enlightened ones... "we are the ones we've been waiting for") and racist (all those people not like us need special privileges just to get by) based on the fallacy that mankind can be "perfected" (and they, of course, are already more perfect and failing to recognize that makes you fallen and imperfect.
Western civilization broadly rejects their "divine right of kings" claims and so it must be torn down by dividing people against each other and replaced with a system that acknowledges their elite status.
That's why to them Orcs must represent black people (because the traditional depiction of orcs is how THEY see black people) and all their other stupid identitarian garbage shows up in their RPGs. They need everyone divided so they can conquer.
I appreciate your input. That is the typical formula for Western civilization I have seen, if a bit surface level in the case of the core of Western civilization, and perhaps debatably too specific for its peripheries. Still, it seems a good starting place.
That said, is your inclination to view these issues as related to their preference by Western civilization at present in prescriptive or merely descriptives terms? In the latter case, things like collectivism, elitism, and racism would need their own separate refutations, of course. If the former, it would be interesting to see why adhering to a civilization's typical standards of ideology is preferable, without direct reference to their justice or factuality. Of course that view itself could take multiple forms, manifesting in one way in a kind if normative cultural relativism or perhaps Western chauvinism, possibly among other options I am not thinking of.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 26, 2023, 03:39:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 24, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Pundit is falling into the same pitfall of thinking the BroSR and Woke are opposing forces instead of the same thing wearing different colored uniforms.
The Nazis have always been socialists (its literally in the name) and the socialists/communists have always been laser focused on identity as a tool of division to tear apart and conquer society. Left/Right, Blue/Red, Black/White; they're all just rhetorical tools to keep people too divided to deal with the real divide of authoritarians vs. the people they want to control.
The BroSR is just the same authoritarianism as the Woke. It even divides them into the same camps, it just seeks its authority in the opposite artificial divide.
The solution is a different type of identarian that is desperately needed in RPGs (and entertainment in general); we need Pro-Western Civilization identarians by the truckload putting out media that supports the traditional values of Western Civilization that the authoritarians seek to destroy.
No, I pretty much totally agree with your definition; most accurately, the Woke and the BroSR are both collectivists (as are both Nazis and Communists). The nature of Western Civilization is such that the traditional values of civilization do not depend on race or ethnicity as such, but on a set of ideals that people either embrace or reject.
Presumably then, men such as Aristotle and other Greek speakers who used the word "barbarian" as they meant the word would not qualify as Western? I would assume this would apply equally to the United States' founding generation as well. It would seem that Western Civilization itself under this proposition nation concept is rather young, dating to perhaps the early 20th century at earliest, preceded by earlier alien civilizations. Or do I have your meaning wrong?
Of course they did. The concept of "barbarian" was not on account of "they have a different skin color from us", it was because they did not have the education, the civilizational ideals that the Greeks had. That's what a barbarian is, someone who does not have the culture of civilization. We have a huge number of barbarians now, as the ruling classes have gone out of their way to try to import them and to create them at home by dismantling the methods by which we educate people in our civilizational values.