Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 08:30:44 AM
That's quite interesting - such examples of government local or federal interviewing did not appear so far in Satanic Panic discussions. I'm Polish so it's utterly beyond my cultural zone. I thought it was mostly local Churches not policemen. Which region was it?

The first incident was in 87 in Utah and the other two were 89 and 90 in North Carolina.  (Yes, the bulk of the 'panic' was over but it still lingers in places today.)  This was not uncommon in semi-rural areas in the US with many things of a "moral" nature.  Usually, the authority figure would have a talk with the parents and then the parents would confiscate but every now and then they would take direct action.  It was more common to happen to children of poor families as well.

There are videos on line of prominent national leaders in the US making public statements about the infiltration of satanism in the youth.  Yes, much of this was driven by churches but there was enough non church stuff going on.

Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 01:57:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis.  Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it.  A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases.  In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.

Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in.  I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small.  the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome.  If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend.  I will even accept Frenchmen.

That's about as bad though, if you're right, the OSR will get filled with hundreds of Feds. Who have even more motivation to try to publicize the thing they claim to be fighting so they can continue to justify their own jobs and the government's agenda of pretending that a group of hick nazis are more dangerous than the Identitarian Left that are in all the major areas of power.

Quote from: Brad on November 18, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.

Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.

Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.

The Identitarian "Left" and the Identitarian "Right" are exactly morally equivalent. In terms of actual ability and power, of course, the Identitarian Left are far more dangerous, because the Identitian Right are a gang of pathetic incompetents.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

Should we be conflating right-wing extremists (whatever they are) with neo-nazis, anti-semites, identitarian white supremes?  This is what the left does, especially our politicians and the media.  They make that cognitive leap in order to paint everyone ideologically against them with the same brush.  Oh, you want lower taxes and fiscal responsibility?  Obviously, you're an extreme right-wing Republican and racist!

Sure, there's some overlap... but far less than the left.  Don't play their game, don't use their framing.  Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from.  And it may just save our hobby.

[taking a page out of Pundit's book] If you enjoyed my thoughts on this, which you should because they're correct... buy my RPG books!

Thank you,

VS

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 19, 2023, 09:58:13 AM

Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 01:57:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis.  Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it.  A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases.  In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.

Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in.  I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small.  the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome.  If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend.  I will even accept Frenchmen.

That's about as bad though, if you're right, the OSR will get filled with hundreds of Feds. Who have even more motivation to try to publicize the thing they claim to be fighting so they can continue to justify their own jobs and the government's agenda of pretending that a group of hick nazis are more dangerous than the Identitarian Left that are in all the major areas of power.

Yes, it's worse in many ways.  As I've stated previously, I'm on board with gatekeeping those that are here to cause trouble.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 19, 2023, 10:14:02 AM
Far-right extremism isn't necessarily something to shy away from.

The word 'extremism' is understood as negative by the majority of people, left or right. Don't use it to describe things you believe are reasonable, pick or create another term.

And yes, I agree we don't need tribalism of any political leaning drowning out the hobby. Sadly, many humans need a crusade to feel better about themselves.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 05:59:13 AM

QuoteThe greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.

That's not a trick of left really but natural result of trying to use linear description of like 5D (or more) space of political ideologies.
Political compasses are using two axis, and it's still not enough really. And of course Left and Right on themselves are not describing anything specific aside of opposing forces - so they are most useless descriptors.

Let's see if we can find a meaningful difference:

Total control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia?  All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this

There's a reason China (once it allowed some private property [albeit under control of the state]) looks eerily similar to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

To bring this back to the topic  we should be more like Poland and gatekeep our hobbies from all types of leftists, identitarians and authoritarians.

QuoteTotal control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia?  All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this

When you try to describe oppressive regimes in language of oppression enemies, then sure they all gonna look the same.
But even then I could totally make differences only I am not sure what is third in this equation aside of Fascism and Nazism. You mean general western Left or modern Chinese regime?

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 05:05:57 PM

QuoteTotal control by the state? All 3 want this
Creating the "new man" to better serve the state? All 3 want this
Creating an Utopia?  All 3 want this
Censorship? All 3 want this
Rewritting history? All 3 want this
Eliminating the "evil ones"? All 3 want this (granted it's a different group branded as the culprit of all evils but still)
Replacing traditional religion with worship of the state and supreme leader? All 3 want this

When you try to describe oppressive regimes in language of oppression enemies, then sure they all gonna look the same.
But even then I could totally make differences only I am not sure what is third in this equation aside of Fascism and Nazism. You mean general western Left or modern Chinese regime?

Have you tried reading it in the context of the quotes above it?

RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about?  People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.

I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.

Who buys and plays more tabletop RPGs? Left-wingers or Right-wingers?

Quote from: Glak on November 20, 2023, 02:57:33 PM
RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about?  People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.

I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.

  Searching Twitter for #BrOSR will turn up much of it; blogs include https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/, https://jeffro.wordpress.com/, https://bdubsanddragons.blogspot.com/, and jonmollison.com

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 20, 2023, 03:12:09 PM

Quote from: Glak on November 20, 2023, 02:57:33 PM
RPGPundit, do you have links or names for the people that you are talking about?  People in the thread are arguing about the existence/size of the phenomenon that you are criticizing, so some examples would be useful.

I'm always on the lookout for game mechanics that are overlooked by the mainstream, so it would be useful from that perspective too.

  Searching Twitter for #BrOSR will turn up much of it; blogs include https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/, https://jeffro.wordpress.com/, https://bdubsanddragons.blogspot.com/, and jonmollison.com

It's all just middle aged dads wearing sunglasses, and calling everyone that hasn't been gaming for 30+ years chuds. I think what we want to see is these examples of them goose-stepping through Berlin.

Well yeah we don't NEED it. But it makes the discussion insane in ways that we couldn't arrive at if we didn't introduce politics.

Getting clawed by a Bugbear isn't just damage. It's MAGICAL damage.

I'll close the book just as quickly if I see a bunch of right wing bullshit as I do when I see left wing woke dogshit.

I don't want politically aligned books, I just want good rpgs that are being made by people who love RPGs and aren't just activists.