Quote from: Zelen on November 18, 2023, 11:27:44 AM
I honestly can't get worked up over a few guys on Twitter. If we start seeing them take over WotC, Paizo, or other big name (for RPGs) companies then I'll start thinking about it. Although it'd be tough to be worse than the current set of nutcases that control these companies.

I don't care what happens to WotC or Paizo. I do care very much what happens to the OSR, the most successful and best indie design movement in the history of RPGs, which they explicitly want to destroy.

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM

Quote from: Valatar on November 18, 2023, 11:38:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 08:50:06 AM

Oh really? So the gang of neofascists in the BroSR and adjacent to them that have been doing a brigading campaign of trying to claim I'm a grifter who is actually a super-woke leftist because I don't hate Jews, those are just imaginary?

The answer to collectivism is NOT collectivism-wearing-the-opposite-team-shirt.  It's telling all the collectivists to go fuck themselves, and not giving them an inch.

You're right, I don't mean to imply that the fix to left-wing insanity is to run in and be right-wing insane in equal measure; pushing back against worshipping trannies and Marxists will not be accomplished by brigading creators to worship Trump instead.  Nor did I mean to imply that right-wing crazies don't exist, they certainly do. But the numbers aren't remotely equivalent. Or maybe they are equivalent on the whole, but the right-wing crazies aren't involving themselves in this hobby to nearly the same extent. They're off at the range or out hunting instead of on Twitter stalking RPG creators.  For whatever reason, the leftists have particularly infested the entertainment industry. RPGs, video games, movies, novels. Did you not include a trans character option in your game or leave out a sidebar condemning toxic masculinity?  That's an incoming harassment campaign. Meanwhile you don't hear about people crying over a company not doing their camo jacket in rainbow colors or not releasing AR furniture with the trans flag on it.

The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

I don't think there are 100s of Neo-Nazis.  Every time there's a major shake down of a "right wing extremist" organization it turns out it's full of federal agents with a couple of jackasses that go t roped into it.  A good case study is the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping cases.  In the end, there's a few dozen true believers and a whole lot of false flagging.

Don't get me wrong, gate keep the hell out of bad actors, no matter what size container they come in.  I am not in favor at all of letting any toxic bs fester, no matter how big or small.  the BroSR is something I've not really been in contact with but anyone that fits your complaints against them are not welcome.  If your ideology involves the suppression, subjugation, or extermination of any group of people due to an involuntary condition, I am not your friend.  I will even accept Frenchmen. 

Quote from: ChrisFox on November 18, 2023, 10:35:48 AM
I'm with you all the way. I don't want any politics. We grognards remember when the right held sway. The religious right came after us hard. Jack Chick was cited by every police department in the United States.

As a Catholic and a game lover, I was on TWO of Jack Chick's hit lists!

Between the left wing purity testers and the right wing purity testers, the worst are the centrist purity testers. You can believe anything you want as long as you don't believe it too strongly.

Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.

Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.

Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 18, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
The vast majority of leftists don't give a fuck about D&D either, but they still infiltrate it, because infiltration is the ends itself. The same is true of the BroSR, and they're not trying to get people to wear camo jackets in the OSR, they're trying to get people to accept that it's OK to deny the holocaust and that you can't criticize their Anti-Semitic tweets, because if you do you're a "woke grifter". They're MORE dangerous to the OSR, a movement that's proven itself strongly resistant to leftist Wokism, specifically because a lot of people are fooled by the false argument that if we condemn their fucking poison then we are "acting just like the libs". They say "we just want to talk about D&D" while they make posts about how Jews are behind Gay Pride or whatever.

And if you say "well, they're not a priority so why bother", you'll soon have hundreds of Neo-Nazis joining the OSR spaces because they will feel free to post their disgusting identitarian hatred while condemning and cancelling anyone who complains about their politicizing the hobby, EXACTLY LIKE THE IDENTITARIAN LEFTISTS DO.

Exactly correct. I'm always shocked at how hard this is to understand. The neo-nazis want to eliminate the very same freedoms the far left wishes to eliminate.

Just because the Holocaust denying antisemites are also against the far left (also antisemitic!) doesn't make them any more welcome into the OSR or any other sane, discerning space.

Quote from: Brad on November 18, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
Okay, the title makes sense now...Pundit is being attacked by some stupid, powerless jackasses so he lumps in any right wingers with the insane leftist fucktards.

Let's be serious...even at the very fucking height of the Satanic Panic, no one was trying to actively burn down TSR or throwing people in prison for playing D&D. But you can be thrown in prison now for daring to "misgender" someone ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.

Identity politics has no business being part of RPGs, sure, but let's stop pretending right and left are remotely equivalent.

You're wasting your breath, this thread is a Limbic response with post hoc reasoning.

The idea that Neo-Nazis would line up in their hundreds (an international recruiting drive I'd guess) to play Elf games so they can spew hate is baffling.

Just because the Far Left and Right are ends of the horseshoe, doesn't mean they have the same psychological makeup. The Far Right LARP by marching in uniforms, not playing a gender queer Catboy in an Elf game. They watch sports at a bar instead of lurking on Reddit. They want a return to a past that may not even have existed, rather than a revolution to bring changes.

The BroSR would be lucky to scrape together enough members for a touch-Football game. I don't have Twitter, so trying to find their sordid racist shenanigans just lead me to videos of a guy repeatedly cheating at a single player game, which is sad but not Mein Kamph.

Even if they sit around a table in their basement playing Godlike, but with the good guys and bad guys flipped, they have no power over the hobby. Unlike the Woke shit, normies won't play lip service to Right Wing hate speech the way they do for the Left.

I have been participating in this hobby for 43 years. I have gamed with all kinds of people, those I agree with and those I do not. I do not shy away from disagreement and am happy to debate. The prpblem with leftists is they cannot tolerate debate. It is their way or the highway. They are creatures devoid of logic who cannot entertain a different opinion. What everyone describes as the 'far left' or the 'far right' are ALL actually leftists. Leftists all eat each other eventually. It is a death spiral that they cannot resist spinning.

I have never heard of a BroSR or whatever the fuck it is. If they do nothing but attack like rabid dogs then they are not on the right at all. They are another leftist group stirring a different shit pot. I don't have and have never had, Twitter, Facebook, or any of that crap and don't really look at Reddit either. That is probably why I haven't heard about this stupid crap until it was discussed here. That is enough to tell me that they have no power in the real world. All these groups that keep getting labeled as far right are bullshit when you apply the simple standards of right leaning people to them. These are the values real right wingers cherish:

FREEDOM

ACCOUNTABILITY

If the group in question does not display these values then they are simply leftists in sheeps clothing. These values are to a leftist as sunlight is to a vampire.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 18, 2023, 10:39:34 PM
I have been participating in this hobby for 43 years. I have gamed with all kinds of people, those I agree with and those I do not. I do not shy away from disagreement and am happy to debate. The prpblem with leftists is they cannot tolerate debate. It is their way or the highway. They are creatures devoid of logic who cannot entertain a different opinion. What everyone describes as the 'far left' or the 'far right' are ALL actually leftists. Leftists all eat each other eventually. It is a death spiral that they cannot resist spinning.

I have never heard of a BroSR or whatever the fuck it is. If they do nothing but attack like rabid dogs then they are not on the right at all. They are another leftist group stirring a different shit pot. I don't have and have never had, Twitter, Facebook, or any of that crap and don't really look at Reddit either. That is probably why I haven't heard about this stupid crap until it was discussed here. That is enough to tell me that they have no power in the real world. All these groups that keep getting labeled as far right are bullshit when you apply the simple standards of right leaning people to them. These are the values real right wingers cherish:

FREEDOM

ACCOUNTABILITY

If the group in question does not display these values then they are simply leftists in sheeps clothing. These values are to a leftist as sunlight is to a vampire.

The greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.

Wanna see what an actual far right person thinks of playing elfgames? Go ask Mat Walsh, bet the answer is you shouldn't because witches, demons, etc or at the very least you should have stoped playing when you became an adult because reasons.

QuoteThe greates trick the left ever played was to convince the world that Nazis and Fascists were right wing.

That's not a trick of left really but natural result of trying to use linear description of like 5D (or more) space of political ideologies.
Political compasses are using two axis, and it's still not enough really. And of course Left and Right on themselves are not describing anything specific aside of opposing forces - so they are most useless descriptors.

QuoteYou're wasting your breath, this thread is a Limbic response with post hoc reasoning.

The idea that Neo-Nazis would line up in their hundreds (an international recruiting drive I'd guess) to play Elf games so they can spew hate is baffling.

Just because the Far Left and Right are ends of the horseshoe, doesn't mean they have the same psychological makeup. The Far Right LARP by marching in uniforms, not playing a gender queer Catboy in an Elf game. They watch sports at a bar instead of lurking on Reddit. They want a return to a past that may not even have existed, rather than a revolution to bring changes.

The BroSR would be lucky to scrape together enough members for a touch-Football game. I don't have Twitter, so trying to find their sordid racist shenanigans just lead me to videos of a guy repeatedly cheating at a single player game, which is sad but not Mein Kamph.

Even if they sit around a table in their basement playing Godlike, but with the good guys and bad guys flipped, they have no power over the hobby. Unlike the Woke shit, normies won't play lip service to Right Wing hate speech the way they do for the Left.

Yeah this is like watching kindergarten vendetta. Lower middle class of OSR raging against absolute plankton of OSR, because they want to destroy OSR with their wicked fascism. Trust me it's very important and crucial for surviving of our genre. Meh. Like watching Cartman fistfights in South Park.

You know for all Jeffro boasting I'd expect wokesters would get on his trial already, but he truly is nothing, no worthy of attention. And even wokesters knows it - so Pundit, Venger and Macris are doomed to stay faces of OSR fascism for unforeseeable future

Nobody took it seriously years ago when the far left started creeping into our communities and hobbies.  Now look where we are.

I still don't think that there's enough far right extremist to fill out a football team roster but they've been used as a wedge to destroy communities in the past.  A handful of people spouting off about white superiority was all it took to wreck 8chan and bring 4chan to it's knees.  All it took was the false flag event in Charlottesville to justify the 2020 bullshit.

Also, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic. 

QuoteAlso, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic.

Taking aside question did they really embraced there - what even modern edgelords born from chans, most of them probably spreading much more edgy memes and texts that they actually believe had in common with busy-bodied Baptist Karens from 80s.

Putting them together in "far-right" is well good proof that left and right are useless categories.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 07:45:25 AM

QuoteAlso, I have not yet forgiven the right for embracing the satanic panic.

Taking aside question did they really embraced there - what even modern edgelords born from chans, most of them probably spreading much more edgy memes and texts that they actually believe had in common with busy-bodied Baptist Karens from 80s.

Putting them together in "far-right" is well good proof that left and right are useless categories.

Lets be clear, 90% of the racism on 4chan was black guys larping to get a rise out of each other.  There was no "far right" for the most part.

It wasn't just the busy-bodies Baptist Karens that were the satanic panic.  It was police departments and school systems that were using the excuse that D&D and Motley Crue led to human sacrifice and suicide pacts.  It wasn't a Karen that took our entire collection of books and note for out campaign when I was 12, it was a PD Sergent.  It was the vice principle that went through our Battletech stuff and destroyed most of it before Mark called his dad in and got him to stop.  A close friend of mine who was a metal head and a skater had his skate board (that he was carrying, not riding) and his backpack full of tapes taken from him by a local sheriff's deputy under the guise of investigating satanic crimes.  It was Republicans in congress that were raising the flag and giving the satanic panic teeth that caused this, not some frumpy moms.

Yeah, I'm still a little bitter over it.

QuoteLets be clear, 90% of the racism on 4chan was black guys larping to get a rise out of each other.  There was no "far right" for the most part.

That's quite possible.
Makes whole idea to purify community even more pointless endeavour. Edgelords won't be hold.

QuoteIt wasn't just the busy-bodies Baptist Karens that were the satanic panic.  It was police departments and school systems that were using the excuse that D&D and Motley Crue led to human sacrifice and suicide pacts.  It wasn't a Karen that took our entire collection of books and note for out campaign when I was 12, it was a PD Sergent.  It was the vice principle that went through our Battletech stuff and destroyed most of it before Mark called his dad in and got him to stop.  A close friend of mine who was a metal head and a skater had his skate board (that he was carrying, not riding) and his backpack full of tapes taken from him by a local sheriff's deputy under the guise of investigating satanic crimes.  It was Republicans in congress that were raising the flag and giving the satanic panic teeth that caused this, not some frumpy moms.

That's quite interesting - such examples of government local or federal interviewing did not appear so far in Satanic Panic discussions. I'm Polish so it's utterly beyond my cultural zone. I thought it was mostly local Churches not policemen. Which region was it?