Is it the end of official published D&D books? It looks like my predictions about WotC were right!
#dnd #ttrpg #osr #wotc #vtt

Hey Pundit  While I agree with your general assessment of the WOTC strategy there is a factor that you didn't mention. Every digital product and venture that WOTC has been involved with and/or produced has been a steaming pile of crap. So when I hear that WOTC's new grand plan is to move EXCLUSIVELY to digital products, I can't help but laugh and reach for the popcorn. They have a track record of never investing the kind of capital required to produce GOOD digital content because they answer to Hasbro, who doesn't think much of of the whole D&D division and always tightly constrains the budget expecting WOTC to make bricks without straw. This fail is gonna be EPIC. Can't wait to see it.

The digital products are going to be completely subscription based so you'll be hit twice, once to get general access and a second time when you get little upgrades.  It's going to sink itself when it's just cheaper to play WoW.

Naw they've said they will be publishing hard copies in addition to digital. It's just they are not directly selling them on their own site (not that they ever did much of that) as just a book without digital - just Amazon and Barnes and Noble and game stores will sell book-only.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2023, 01:22:33 AM
Naw they've said they will be publishing hard copies in addition to digital. It's just they are not directly selling them on their own site (not that they ever did much of that) as just a book without digital - just Amazon and Barnes and Noble and game stores will sell book-only.

Yes, I think that most printed D&D books are already being bought on Amazon or other online retailers rather than from WotC or local game stores, which are now few and far between. As long as physical books make money, I see no reason why WotC should stop producing them. However, there might be much more exclusive online content in the future.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 29, 2023, 05:05:52 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2023, 01:22:33 AM
Naw they've said they will be publishing hard copies in addition to digital. It's just they are not directly selling them on their own site (not that they ever did much of that) as just a book without digital - just Amazon and Barnes and Noble and game stores will sell book-only.

Yes, I think that most printed D&D books are already being bought on Amazon or other online retailers rather than from WotC or local game stores, which are now few and far between. As long as physical books make money, I see no reason why WotC should stop producing them. However, there might be much more exclusive online content in the future.

Pundit covered that. The three core books will be released as physical copies because these are always the best sellers of any new edition. Content beyond that......... we will have to wait and see who is correct. FRom WOTC's perspective, why sell whole books full of content that don't sell nearly as well as the core for $30 to $50 when they can release it to the VTT in tidbits for $5 here, $10 there, so players will have to pay nearly $200 for the same content in tidbits.

Posted this in the wrong thread...

Does anyone here actually care? This is a serious question. I know *I* don't (not anymore, at least, after all the utter bullshit going on with 5th edition), but some more casual players might, and by casual I mean people who play D&D who aren't flaming forum morons (of any variety, including the OSR ones).

For instance, my buddy and his wife play 5th almost exclusively, and they have a subscription to the online character builder stuff. They really like it and it seems to work for them. But they also have some physical books and PDFs, so if they're forced to go completely to a subscription-based model, I am unsure what they'll do. Maybe it'll make them reconsider? Like what happens if they piss off the wrong person on the Internet and their stuff is revoked; that would put a serious damper on the ability to play.

So while this is retarded as fuck for most of us here, and seems super awesome for the people we typically try to avoid, there is a large segment of more casual gamers that might be on the fence. Do they roll with 100% electronic, or do they give some pushback. Like it or not, this is a massive segment of D&D players, more than anyone here would like to admit. Seems like WotC is gambling that the casual gamer is so used to paying for stuff like Disney+ and microtransactions in phone games that they'll just take this in stride. Honestly, from a marketing perspective, it's not a bad gamble, no matter how much we think it sucks, and I'm inclined to think it'll be a huge cash cow for them.

One of my buddies' sons bought his first RPG book. It was a physical copy of the 5E PHB.

(Yes, I know, but it's all he knows how to play so far. We're working on teaching him other systems. Patience, Daniel-san.)

I really don't think e-books are going to be near as popular as WotC believes.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 29, 2023, 09:58:32 AM

I really don't think e-books are going to be near as popular as WotC believes.

From what I understand as the new model e-books won't be what they are selling. The model seems to be integrated with their proprietary VTT not pdfs that can be used on a tablet at a physical table with meat sacks. If this is the case then they are flipping the bird to all live in person play groups and catering to the VTT crowd. If this turns out to be the actual model then it is the greatest thing since sliced bread for the OSR and secondary book sales market. Players will move away from WOTC's latest turd edition to something else to get their in person gaming fix. By force if not choice since WOTC will be offering nothing they can use without playing on a computer.

I agree with Brad:

As long as they can deliver a semi functional "VTT" they will make money hands over fists.

Most people are used by now to pay for subscriptions even for stuff we used to just buy (Lots of software does this), lots of people are used to microtransactions up the wazoo on their phone games and their console/PC games.

Now, how big is the overlap? Is the majority of 5e players/DMs willing to play "in person" over a lan party? How powerful does your computer need to be to run their BS? If it's online then how much of a lag will it have?

It could very well be a hit on launch and then crumble, it could very well be the money printing machine they expect it to be.

As for caring? As long as they take the majority of the SparkleTrolls to their walled garden I'm hoping they succeed and wishing them bom boyage.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2023, 01:26:50 PM
Most people are used by now to pay for subscriptions even for stuff we used to just buy (Lots of software does this), lots of people are used to microtransactions up the wazoo on their phone games and their console/PC games.

Now, how big is the overlap? Is the majority of 5e players/DMs willing to play "in person" over a lan party? How powerful does your computer need to be to run their BS? If it's online then how much of a lag will it have?

I have no major opinion on the VTT. I've used Roll20 for some past Call of Cthulhu games, but not for D&D.

But I think the digital will also have influence on purely in-person games for the character generator and other helper tools. Most of my players made their PCs using D&DBeyond, and one of them accesses her character sheet on her phone while she plays. When she does actions, she generally just clicks on the attack/ability/etc to do the roll. The others print out their sheets and roll physical dice, but they still go back to the D&DBeyond to level up.

Everyone is using the free account level.

I think just the character generator alone is a big deal for WotC. A lot of people are paying for more options.


The big question is how this compares to the old strategy of having splatbooks like The Complete Fighter. RPG companies have long relied on players paying for new character options. My guess: In the past, only the hard-core players bought splatbooks, but now more casual players will buy a few pieces of a splatbook. So the sales will be for less, but a lot more of them.

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2023, 02:07:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2023, 01:26:50 PM
Most people are used by now to pay for subscriptions even for stuff we used to just buy (Lots of software does this), lots of people are used to microtransactions up the wazoo on their phone games and their console/PC games.

Now, how big is the overlap? Is the majority of 5e players/DMs willing to play "in person" over a lan party? How powerful does your computer need to be to run their BS? If it's online then how much of a lag will it have?

I have no major opinion on the VTT. I've used Roll20 for some past Call of Cthulhu games, but not for D&D.

But I think the digital will also have influence on purely in-person games for the character generator and other helper tools. Most of my players made their PCs using D&DBeyond, and one of them accesses her character sheet on her phone while she plays. When she does actions, she generally just clicks on the attack/ability/etc to do the roll. The others print out their sheets and roll physical dice, but they still go back to the D&DBeyond to level up.

Everyone is using the free account level.

I think just the character generator alone is a big deal for WotC. A lot of people are paying for more options.


The big question is how this compares to the old strategy of having splatbooks like The Complete Fighter. RPG companies have long relied on players paying for new character options. My guess: In the past, only the hard-core players bought splatbooks, but now more casual players will buy a few pieces of a splatbook. So the sales will be for less, but a lot more of them.

You didn't watch the video where they show it?

It's 3D, ALL the players were in the same room with their own laptops, so it either needs a really powerful computer or a really good internet connection since all those laptops will be connected to the same line.

Think WoW but your character isn't animated, even if IT IS 3d. But it does have other animations, like the spells.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2023, 03:33:39 PM
You didn't watch the video where they show it?

It's 3D, ALL the players were in the same room with their own laptops, so it either needs a really powerful computer or a really good internet connection since all those laptops will be connected to the same line.

Think WoW but your character isn't animated, even if IT IS 3d. But it does have other animations, like the spells.

Yeah...this is NOT for us, nor geared toward traditional tabletop roleplaying games. It's something different, and it looks like WotC is using D&D as a gateway into the new fabulous super awesome way better than old stuff way only three easy payments of $9.95! Why do they all have to be easy? Why can't one be difficult!?!?

But there has to be a market if they are doing this. They do not care about tabletop, that much is certain, so they must have done the market research and determined there is a critical mass of gamers who will buy into this and make them a lot of money. I guess the analogy would be what happened to old school arcade consoles and arcades. If you actually wanted completion you had to go out in public or at least have a friend over. Now you can play videogames in your mom's basement and never see anyone and you don't need any friends or social skills. Modern videogames killed arcades, and I hate that, but the number$$$ don't lie...

Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2023, 10:15:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2023, 03:33:39 PM
You didn't watch the video where they show it?

It's 3D, ALL the players were in the same room with their own laptops, so it either needs a really powerful computer or a really good internet connection since all those laptops will be connected to the same line.

Think WoW but your character isn't animated, even if IT IS 3d. But it does have other animations, like the spells.

Yeah...this is NOT for us, nor geared toward traditional tabletop roleplaying games. It's something different, and it looks like WotC is using D&D as a gateway into the new fabulous super awesome way better than old stuff way only three easy payments of $9.95! Why do they all have to be easy? Why can't one be difficult!?!?

But there has to be a market if they are doing this. They do not care about tabletop, that much is certain, so they must have done the market research and determined there is a critical mass of gamers who will buy into this and make them a lot of money. I guess the analogy would be what happened to old school arcade consoles and arcades. If you actually wanted completion you had to go out in public or at least have a friend over. Now you can play videogames in your mom's basement and never see anyone and you don't need any friends or social skills. Modern videogames killed arcades, and I hate that, but the number$$$ don't lie...

Oh, I'm sure there's a market, what I'm not so sure is that WotC can deliver something mediocre enough to win a loyal customer base. I mean they are intent on jetissoning most if not all the TTRPG Players, so they need a new demographic, does it exist? Sure.

Can WotC deliver something the doesn't suck monkey balls in order to attract that new demographic? We'll have to wait and see.

Either way, if they succeed or crash and burn I think this is good for the hobby.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 29, 2023, 01:26:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 29, 2023, 09:58:32 AM

I really don't think e-books are going to be near as popular as WotC believes.

From what I understand as the new model e-books won't be what they are selling. The model seems to be integrated with their proprietary VTT not pdfs that can be used on a tablet at a physical table with meat sacks. If this is the case then they are flipping the bird to all live in person play groups and catering to the VTT crowd. If this turns out to be the actual model then it is the greatest thing since sliced bread for the OSR and secondary book sales market. Players will move away from WOTC's latest turd edition to something else to get their in person gaming fix. By force if not choice since WOTC will be offering nothing they can use without playing on a computer.

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. Which is even MORE absurd.

They are heavily banking on the new crop of gamers not being tech-savvy enough to rip the files to a portable file format (PDF or EPUB would be my suggestion).

Hell of a gamble, in my opinion.