Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM

I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

I certainly don't,  and I'd be shocked if anybody else here feels that way.  Bushido is one of my favorite games, and it has nothing but Japanese people in it.  I guess the DM could shoehorn other races in -- but I'd probably refuse to play in such a game.

Also, I've said before that an RPG set in a fantasy version of the Americas with no white people, using Indian folklore and myths as a basis, would be fantastic.  Again, I'd find it obnoxious if whites or blacks were shoehorned into the setting.  Geeky proposed a game like this based on Mesoamerican history and culture, and I thought it was a great idea.  But then, unlike libtards, he wouldn't mind if a white guy like me tried to play a Mayan character or whatever.  The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.  See my example earlier in this thread of a game where all Africans die and as a result White people around the globe benefit enormously.

It's your "tolerant" SJWs who object to such things, on the basis of "appropriation."  I think it's charming that Call of Cthulhu is popular in Japan.  The idea of a bunch of Japanese gamers playing 1920s New Englanders investigating the Mythos, even if they get some history or cultural details or pronunciations wrong, warms my heart.  I guess libtards are in a high dudgeon about it though.  (Or maybe they're not, as they only think "appropriation" is a one way street and only White people can be wrong).

Quote from: Krazz on April 04, 2023, 09:20:01 AM

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM
I don't know this game.  Haven't read it, haven't played it.  Have no plans to play it.

I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

I don't think anyone has a problem with there being no playable white people - there was no equivalent outcry with the Mouse Guard RPG, for example. So yes, I think you've misunderstood. Perhaps you should reread the relevant posts in the original thread to see the complaint.

Do work!?!?!?!  That's not how these people operate...

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM

I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

I certainly don't,  and I'd be shocked if anybody else here feels that way.  Bushido is one of my favorite games, and it has nothing but Japanese people in it.  I guess the DM could shoehorn other races in -- but I'd probably refuse to play in such a game.

Also, I've said before that an RPG set in a fantasy version of the Americas with no white people, using Indian folklore and myths as a basis, would be fantastic.  Again, I'd find it obnoxious if whites or blacks were shoehorned into the setting.  Geeky proposed a game like this based on Mesoamerican history and culture, and I thought it was a great idea.  But then, unlike libtards, he wouldn't mind if a white guy like me tried to play a Mayan character or whatever.  The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.  See my example earlier in this thread of a game where all Africans die and as a result White people around the globe benefit enormously.

It's your "tolerant" SJWs who object to such things, on the basis of "appropriation."  I think it's charming that Call of Cthulhu is popular in Japan.  The idea of a bunch of Japanese gamers playing 1920s New Englanders investigating the Mythos, even if they get some history or cultural details or pronunciations wrong, warms my heart.  I guess libtards are in a high dudgeon about it though.  (Or maybe they're not, as they only think "appropriation" is a one way street and only White people can be wrong).

Mayan history, culture and myth, no I wouldn't mind ANYONE playing my game, I WANT everybody to play it (when it's done of course). In my setting white people exist, but due to magic, and an accident centuries before the arrival of the Spaniards IRL there was no conquista, the Mayan Empire reigns supreme over the Americas (yes, they did some conquering and colonization) There's an European Empire, but not who you'd expect, still not sure about who (if anyone) colonized Africa since that is in the future still in my setting.

I'm guessing you could go play in the Europe of my setting but:

1.- I'm not fleshing out in the game (maybe latter in a supplement)
2.- I think that's boring since there's lots of pseudo medieval European settings
3.- I hope people will find my Mayapan setting more interesting
4.- You could always play as a Viking or a Mixed blood Mayan-Viking character (if your GM allows it)

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM
I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.  See my example earlier in this thread of a game where all Africans die and as a result White people around the globe benefit enormously.

Except I pointed out that both of these are false.

1) There is nothing that says that all white people died. The only thing known about Europe is that they didn't come colonize the Americas. Page 97 says about what is in the rest of the world, and nothing is known about any of people on Asia, Europe, or Africa.

2) The advanced technological society comes partly from the minority of people with psychic abilities that resulted from the event, including enhanced mental powers. On page 52, it details scientific advanced and how psychic powers are intertwined with them - though it does note that advancement was already underway in the 300 years post disaster before the powers developed in their current form.

Quote from: jhkim on April 04, 2023, 11:58:54 AM

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM
I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.  See my example earlier in this thread of a game where all Africans die and as a result White people around the globe benefit enormously.

Except I pointed out that both of these are false.

1) There is nothing that says that all white people died. The only thing known about Europe is that they didn't come colonize the Americas. Page 97 says about what is in the rest of the world, and nothing is known about any of people on Asia, Europe, or Africa.

2) The advanced technological society comes partly from the minority of people with psychic abilities that resulted from the event, including enhanced mental powers. On page 52, it details scientific advanced and how psychic powers are intertwined with them - though it does note that advancement was already underway in the 300 years post disaster before the powers developed in their current form.

The Americas aren't discovered by the evul huwhite man, conquest never happens, and Utopia ensues. But tell us again how the white man isn't dead and how the racist fucktard author poses that without them Utopia follows.

I know you think any indictment on the author somehow reflects on you and your son (even when I've told you it doesn't) but please don't come with that weak sauce, we're not stupid and it's insulting.

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM
The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society. 

OK.  I don't see a big difference between "white people exist, but you won't be playing one" and "no white people exist, so you can't play one".  That's just my opinion of course, you could disagree.

As for how the various cultures of the world would have advanced without European involvement, we'll never know.  I definitely don't think you need to have Europeans to have an advanced technological society occur.  Humans are all humans after all.  They would need access to the right materials, but for a fictional "what if" scenario, I don't see the issue.  If special powers are available like one poster mentioned, then it's even more plausible.

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 12:39:02 PM

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM
The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society. 

OK.  I don't see a big difference between "white people exist, but you won't be playing one" and "no white people exist, so you can't play one".  That's just my opinion of course, you could disagree.

As for how the various cultures of the world would have advanced without European involvement, we'll never know.  I definitely don't think you need to have Europeans to have an advanced technological society occur.  Humans are all humans after all.  They would need access to the right materials, but for a fictional "what if" scenario, I don't see the issue.  If special powers are available like one poster mentioned, then it's even more plausible.

Try reading I's post where a hypothetical RPG is described in which Africans are wiped out and an advanced technological society occurs as a result. If you see nothing wrong with that, then I at least credit you with consistency.

Quote from: Krazz on April 04, 2023, 01:26:07 PM
Try reading I's post where a hypothetical RPG is described in which Africans are wiped out and an advanced technological society occurs as a result. If you see nothing wrong with that, then I at least credit you with consistency.

Well, I would be a little confused how the first event caused that particular outcome.  If one or more groups of people are wiped out for whatever reason as the backstory for a game, I don't see an issue.  Then, as a separate thing, years later a different group of people end up with a different society and history than what we have in the real world.  Again, it's just a "what if" scenario so definitely not scientific.  Co-relating the two is more confusing than racist in my opinion.

If we had another hypothetical RPG where ALL humans were wiped out and another species became the dominant one with advanced technology, we wouldn't call it anti-human.  It'd just be a silly "what if" scenario.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 12:16:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 04, 2023, 11:58:54 AM

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM
The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.  See my example earlier in this thread of a game where all Africans die and as a result White people around the globe benefit enormously.

Except I pointed out that both of these are false.

1) There is nothing that says that all white people died. The only thing known about Europe is that they didn't come colonize the Americas. Page 97 says about what is in the rest of the world, and nothing is known about any of people on Asia, Europe, or Africa.

2) The advanced technological society comes partly from the minority of people with psychic abilities that resulted from the event, including enhanced mental powers. On page 52, it details scientific advanced and how psychic powers are intertwined with them - though it does note that advancement was already underway in the 300 years post disaster before the powers developed in their current form.

The Americas aren't discovered by the evul huwhite man, conquest never happens, and Utopia ensues. But tell us again how the white man isn't dead and how the racist fucktard author poses that without them Utopia follows.

Again, I don't speak for the author. But no, that's not what the game says.

Yes, the game is a pro-native fantasy by giving them psychic powers that accelerate scientific advancement, but so what? Having a positive fantasy about native culture doesn't hurt white people. It's a fantasy game with purple objects dropping from outer space and mind powers from altered plants.

I've had some related comments about my Incan-inspired high fantasy setting -- that by having a shiny King-Arthur-esque fantasy instead of the more brutal historical reality, I'm engaged in some sort of anti-white fantasy. Specifically that I must have human sacrifice in my setting, or I'm being revisionist.

The problem isn't that you can't play European characters in C&C. Nobody complained about it in Bushido, or for that matter Legend of the Five Rings.

The problem is that the developers have spoken with extraordinary dickishness to white -players- about playing C&C, to the point of 'well we don't think you should play our game without our permission'.

Mmm. OK, message received. Now fuck off and go broke.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 04, 2023, 03:02:27 PM
The problem isn't that you can't play European characters in C&C. Nobody complained about it in Bushido, or for that matter Legend of the Five Rings.

The problem is that the developers have spoken with extraordinary dickishness to white -players- about playing C&C, to the point of 'well we don't think you should play our game without our permission'.

This makes more sense to me.

That wasn't mentioned in the original post for this thread, though. The problems were being phrased as issues with the published game setting, not with the creator. I've read through the game, but I haven't followed the creator on social media or wherever. For me, there's a big difference between the creator and the creation.

Quote from: jhkim on April 04, 2023, 07:33:37 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 04, 2023, 03:02:27 PM
The problem isn't that you can't play European characters in C&C. Nobody complained about it in Bushido, or for that matter Legend of the Five Rings.

The problem is that the developers have spoken with extraordinary dickishness to white -players- about playing C&C, to the point of 'well we don't think you should play our game without our permission'.

This makes more sense to me.

That wasn't mentioned in the original post for this thread, though. The problems were being phrased as issues with the published game setting, not with the creator. I've read through the game, but I haven't followed the creator on social media or wherever. For me, there's a big difference between the creator and the creation.

Let's take Varg Vikernes, he's a known neo-nazi, he writes a game where a giant meteor exterminated all the Africans, now europe is an utopia...

Would you still say the game isn't racist?

Well, the 1/1064th native American author of C&C is just as racist as Varg, only he hates white people, maybe the absence of white people in his game, the NA creating an utopia and his racism are connected.

I'll tell you once more why I hate the SJWs just as much as I hate the Vargs of this world:

I'm Maya/Spaniard, SJWs hate me because I'm too white, Varg and his ilk hate me because I'm not white enough.

Between you (an open leftist) and me I would bet dollars to donuts I'm a better judge of who/what is racist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 08:02:11 PMBetween you (an open leftist) and me I would bet dollars to donuts I'm a better judge of who/what is racist.

Oh so just because he frequents a church that hangs a BLM flag over the door, you think he's somehow blind and/or ambivalent about anti-White racism, is that it?

...

Actually that's...that sounds pretty reasonable.

Quote from: I on April 04, 2023, 09:32:33 AM
The obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow isn't that you can't play a white character -- it's the idea that all white people died and as a result North America is some sort of advanced technological society.

Actually this is the obnoxious thing about Coyote and Crow:
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