Due to my thread ban I can't respond there, but I just couldn't let this post by Jhkim pass without debunking it.

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2023, 05:09:27 PM

Quote from: Venka on March 31, 2023, 11:07:59 AM
Coyote & Crow is one of those things that if I was given a time machine back to not many years ago, I wouldn't be able to convince anyone that it would happen.  Like if I could go onto a forum in 1998 or 2008 and I described the entire thing, I'd be banned as trying to make liberals look bad, or whatever.  Literally no one would believe the concept, the pitch, the crowdfunding, the man, the interactions, the absurd racialist complaints, or the support it would gain- it would just be dismissed as impossible, in some cases by the people who would YASS QWEEN it just a few years later.

GURPS Alternate Earths was published in 1996, and featured a timeline ("Ezcalli") where Aztecs were an advanced, world-dominant culture, and European civilization collapsed - with Mongol and African civilizations dominant. Here's a version of the world map from it:



Kim Stanley Robinson's "The Years of Rice and Salt" was published in 2002 with a similar premise.

Why do you lie or make false equivalences?

In Ezcalli the Europeans weren't wiped out, they still exist, but they aren't an economical, political or military power. They are paying tribute to the Mongols. GURPS Alternate Earths 1, Ezcalli Page 96, The Khanate of Urop.

In contrast in C&C there's no Europeans, we know because there's NO talk about them in the book beyond the asteroid that wiped them out.

Furthermore, Alternate Earths presents SEVERAL different timelines with different powers arising and IIRC you can travel from one to the other.

The Years of Rice and Salt was written by a fucking Marxist a white one (we would call him a baizuo now), it still doesn't present you with the utopia that followed the demise of the white man. So, no, not a similar premise.

Agreed, it was typically disingenuous. This was after he tried to pretend 7th Sea focusing on not-Europe at first, before exploring other places in sourcebooks, was equivalent to "The white-devils died, so we went from stone tools to nanotech because they weren't holding us back."

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 11:08:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2023, 05:09:27 PM
GURPS Alternate Earths was published in 1996, and featured a timeline ("Ezcalli") where Aztecs were an advanced, world-dominant culture, and European civilization collapsed - with Mongol and African civilizations dominant.

Why do you lie or make false equivalences?

In Ezcalli the Europeans weren't wiped out, they still exist, but they aren't an economical, political or military power. They are paying tribute to the Mongols. GURPS Alternate Earths 1, Ezcalli Page 96, The Khanate of Urop.

In contrast in C&C there's no Europeans, we know because there's NO talk about them in the book beyond the asteroid that wiped them out.

The C&C book does not say that an asteroid wiped out Europe. It says nothing about them. The only thing we know about Europe is that they didn't colonize the Americas.

Also, in Ezcalli, Europe isn't just paying tribute to the Mongols. According to the book, "Europe in particular is the source for Tenochca slave traders, who buy slaves from the petty princes of Gaul, Italy, and Spain. Slave trade routes run from the Balkans and Urop through the trading cities of northern Italy and into the great Tenochca factory at Knasgord on the coast of Gaul."

So yes, this is a difference. But let's say C&C had instead made Europe into a less powerful fringe culture that is paying tribute to Makasing. Would you really then not have any issues with C&C? It seems to me that if the author had done that, most people with objections would have even more problems with it.

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Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 11:08:22 PM
Furthermore, Alternate Earths presents SEVERAL different timelines with different powers arising and IIRC you can travel from one to the other.

Alternate Earths is a toolkit. You can use each alternate timeline as their own setting, or as part of a world-hopping/time-traveling campaign.

Again, it's true that this is a difference. But if the authors had presented Ezcalli as a standalone setting book, would that really change things?

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2023, 02:25:40 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 11:08:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2023, 05:09:27 PM
GURPS Alternate Earths was published in 1996, and featured a timeline ("Ezcalli") where Aztecs were an advanced, world-dominant culture, and European civilization collapsed - with Mongol and African civilizations dominant.

Why do you lie or make false equivalences?

In Ezcalli the Europeans weren't wiped out, they still exist, but they aren't an economical, political or military power. They are paying tribute to the Mongols. GURPS Alternate Earths 1, Ezcalli Page 96, The Khanate of Urop.

In contrast in C&C there's no Europeans, we know because there's NO talk about them in the book beyond the asteroid that wiped them out.

The C&C book does not say that an asteroid wiped out Europe. It says nothing about them. The only thing we know about Europe is that they didn't colonize the Americas.

Also, in Ezcalli, Europe isn't just paying tribute to the Mongols. According to the book, "Europe in particular is the source for Tenochca slave traders, who buy slaves from the petty princes of Gaul, Italy, and Spain. Slave trade routes run from the Balkans and Urop through the trading cities of northern Italy and into the great Tenochca factory at Knasgord on the coast of Gaul."

So yes, this is a difference. But let's say C&C had instead made Europe into a less powerful fringe culture that is paying tribute to Makasing. Would you really then not have any issues with C&C? It seems to me that if the author had done that, most people with objections would have even more problems with it.

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 11:08:22 PM
Furthermore, Alternate Earths presents SEVERAL different timelines with different powers arising and IIRC you can travel from one to the other.

Alternate Earths is a toolkit. You can use each alternate timeline as their own setting, or as part of a world-hopping/time-traveling campaign.

Again, it's true that this is a difference. But if the authors had presented Ezcalli as a standalone setting book, would that really change things?

"Si mi bisabuelita tuviera ruedas seria bicicleta"

You said they were the same, they aren't, now you say that if an hypothetical X was true then people would be madder. You're just set on caping for the racist POS.

No, Ezcalli as a stand alone book would be the same as it is, because it's not a genocidal fantasy by a racist POS where by wiping out an entire race there's utopia.

Let's make an alternate-history RPG where Africa gets hit by an asteroid and wiped out around 100 B.C.  All Africans die.  Therefore, there is never any Black slavery.  This doesn't affect Turks and Arabs too much; they just raid for more white slaves.  Asians are, of course, unaffected.  But Europeans never practice slavery at all.  Therefore, not being tied down by the inefficient and socially-retarding practice of slavery (it's profitable in the short term but has severe economic and social long-term effects), white people leap ahead in technology hundreds of years past our own timeline.  The continent of Europe also benefits, as it's not overwhelmed by big waves of poor, uneducated African migrants.  North America especially benefits -- there's no civil war, due to cotton never becoming a big thing, hordes of Europeans never move to the Deep South and the so the Five Civilized Tribes are allowed to keep most of their lands, crime in the U.S. is about half of what it is now, social spending (including prison spending) is a lot lower, etc.  It's basically paradise, all because Africans got exterminated.

Now, who wants this game?  Is jhkim going to be the first customer?

Quote from: I on April 01, 2023, 11:12:18 AM
Let's make an alternate-history RPG where Africa gets hit by an asteroid and wiped out around 100 B.C.  All Africans die.  Therefore, there is never any Black slavery.  This doesn't affect Turks and Arabs too much; they just raid for more white slaves.  Asians are, of course, unaffected.  But Europeans never practice slavery at all.  Therefore, not being tied down by the inefficient and socially-retarding practice of slavery (it's profitable in the short term but has severe economic and social long-term effects), white people leap ahead in technology hundreds of years past our own timeline.  The continent of Europe also benefits, as it's not overwhelmed by big waves of poor, uneducated African migrants.  North America especially benefits -- there's no civil war, due to cotton never becoming a big thing, hordes of Europeans never move to the Deep South and the so the Five Civilized Tribes are allowed to keep most of their lands, crime in the U.S. is about half of what it is now, social spending (including prison spending) is a lot lower, etc.  It's basically paradise, all because Africans got exterminated.

Now, who wants this game?  Is jhkim going to be the first customer?

You think you have him cornered, but it's nothing 10,000 words dancing around your point, and using some weak apples to oranges examples, can't handle.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 01, 2023, 11:18:44 AM

You think you have him cornered, but it's nothing 10,000 words dancing around your point, and using some weak apples to oranges examples, can't handle.

I know it's a Quixotic quest, but I had to try.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2023, 03:01:48 AM
No, Ezcalli as a stand alone book would be the same as it is, because it's not a genocidal fantasy by a racist POS where by wiping out an entire race there's utopia.

It sounds like you're getting offended and calling it "genocide" if a *fictional* disaster happens to the Earth. I don't give a shit about the creator, I don't know him -- but I do know that my son backed the Kickstarter and I don't think he is particularly racist or genocidal.

Two points in general:

1) I will repeat again that in Coyote & Crow, the only thing known about Europe is that it didn't colonize the Americas. It's the same unknown for Africa, Asia, and Australia, except for rumors of wild magic in Hawai'i. It would be completely consistent to later have supplement books by different authors about Hawai'i along with Africa, Asia, and Europe in this world. The author isn't guilty of Asian genocide because he doesn't detail what happened to Asia in the book.

2) Coyote & Crow has an explicitly fantastical premise -- that around 1400, a weird purple streak through the sky caused climate disaster but also gave strange powers to people and living things in the Americas, including some humans with enhanced mental abilities. Every PC in C&C is presumed to have Awis powers. The advancements in C&C are largely a result of these powers.

So I disagree with your assessment that C&C's advancements are based on the supposed genocide of Europeans. If the author were to present this future as a realistic result of what would have happened without European contact, then I'd have a problem with the game -- but it's not. It's based on psychic powers and strange events.

Maybe the author privately believes that such a future would happen without psychic powers, but that's not what the game is written as.

Quote from: I on April 01, 2023, 11:12:18 AM
It's basically paradise, all because Africans got exterminated.

Now, who wants this game?  Is jhkim going to be the first customer?

This is actually more of a critique of Ezcalli than of Coyote & Crow. As I said above, Coyote & Crow has an explicitly fantastical premise.

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2023, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2023, 03:01:48 AM
No, Ezcalli as a stand alone book would be the same as it is, because it's not a genocidal fantasy by a racist POS where by wiping out an entire race there's utopia.

It sounds like you're getting offended and calling it "genocide" if a *fictional* disaster happens to the Earth. I don't give a shit about the creator, I don't know him -- but I do know that my son backed the Kickstarter and I don't think he is particularly racist or genocidal.

Two points in general:

1) I will repeat again that in Coyote & Crow, the only thing known about Europe is that it didn't colonize the Americas. It's the same unknown for Africa, Asia, and Australia, except for rumors of wild magic in Hawai'i. It would be completely consistent to later have supplement books by different authors about Hawai'i along with Africa, Asia, and Europe in this world. The author isn't guilty of Asian genocide because he doesn't detail what happened to Asia in the book.

2) Coyote & Crow has an explicitly fantastical premise -- that around 1400, a weird purple streak through the sky caused climate disaster but also gave strange powers to people and living things in the Americas, including some humans with enhanced mental abilities. Every PC in C&C is presumed to have Awis powers. The advancements in C&C are largely a result of these powers.

So I disagree with your assessment that C&C's advancements are based on the supposed genocide of Europeans. If the author were to present this future as a realistic result of what would have happened without European contact, then I'd have a problem with the game -- but it's not. It's based on psychic powers and strange events.

Maybe the author privately believes that such a future would happen without psychic powers, but that's not what the game is written as.

Quote from: I on April 01, 2023, 11:12:18 AM
It's basically paradise, all because Africans got exterminated.

Now, who wants this game?  Is jhkim going to be the first customer?

This is actually more of a critique of Ezcalli than of Coyote & Crow. As I said above, Coyote & Crow has an explicitly fantastical premise.

You missed the part (where you quote me BTW) where I say it's a genocidal fantasy?

What the fuck does your son have to do with anything? Have I called you or him racist or genocidal? No, I have said the author of C&C is a would be genocidal maniac (if only he had the power) because he's a racist.

It would be completely consistent if we weren't talking about a fucking racist.

Yeah, if it doesn't have a meteor wiping out a whole race and instead a different natural disaster causes that race to not be able to do what it did IRL it's clearly not fantasy.

IDK why you're this invested in caping for the racist POS that created C&C.

Quote from: I on April 01, 2023, 02:06:36 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 01, 2023, 11:18:44 AM

You think you have him cornered, but it's nothing 10,000 words dancing around your point, and using some weak apples to oranges examples, can't handle.

I know it's a Quixotic quest, but I had to try.

Your sanity will thank you if you just put jhkim on ignore.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2023, 10:17:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2023, 02:14:49 PM
It sounds like you're getting offended and calling it "genocide" if a *fictional* disaster happens to the Earth. I don't give a shit about the creator, I don't know him -- but I do know that my son backed the Kickstarter and I don't think he is particularly racist or genocidal.

What the fuck does your son have to do with anything? Have I called you or him racist or genocidal? No, I have said the author of C&C is a would be genocidal maniac (if only he had the power) because he's a racist.

It would be completely consistent if we weren't talking about a fucking racist.

I have made no claims about the author's beliefs. I don't know him or follow him on Twitter or whatever.

I have read the game, though, and I don't see a problem with the setting itself or the game mechanics. I think the learning curve will be too difficult for most play groups, but I have nothing against people who bought the game or are playing the game -- which is where my son comes into it. It seems to me that from the way you describe it, people who bought or play the game are a problem because the game setting itself is a moral wrong -- but I don't see that from reading the game. As I was quoted in the original post for this thread, it does seem to me to be at most equivalent to a setting like Ezcalli.


If I had a bunch of players who were sufficiently interested to deal with the learning curve, then I might give it a try. I talked about the game with my son -- I read the game by reading his copy of the PDF. For my campaign, one concept I might try is a world explorers game -- for which I'd come up with extensions with different sort of sci-fi scenarios for the peoples of Asia, Europe, Africa, etc. and how the Awis affected them each differently. From the rumors of wild magic powers in Hawaii, I might have a strange purple object have landed in the western Pacific Ocean, and bands of its effects spread out from there.


I generally ignore calls about whether this or that author is a racist, from either side. It doesn't affect my gaming.

Quote from: jhkim on April 03, 2023, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2023, 10:17:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2023, 02:14:49 PM
It sounds like you're getting offended and calling it "genocide" if a *fictional* disaster happens to the Earth. I don't give a shit about the creator, I don't know him -- but I do know that my son backed the Kickstarter and I don't think he is particularly racist or genocidal.

What the fuck does your son have to do with anything? Have I called you or him racist or genocidal? No, I have said the author of C&C is a would be genocidal maniac (if only he had the power) because he's a racist.

It would be completely consistent if we weren't talking about a fucking racist.

I have made no claims about the author's beliefs. I don't know him or follow him on Twitter or whatever.

I have read the game, though, and I don't see a problem with the setting itself or the game mechanics. I think the learning curve will be too difficult for most play groups, but I have nothing against people who bought the game or are playing the game -- which is where my son comes into it. It seems to me that from the way you describe it, people who bought or play the game are a problem because the game setting itself is a moral wrong -- but I don't see that from reading the game. As I was quoted in the original post for this thread, it does seem to me to be at most equivalent to a setting like Ezcalli.


If I had a bunch of players who were sufficiently interested to deal with the learning curve, then I might give it a try. I talked about the game with my son -- I read the game by reading his copy of the PDF. For my campaign, one concept I might try is a world explorers game -- for which I'd come up with extensions with different sort of sci-fi scenarios for the peoples of Asia, Europe, Africa, etc. and how the Awis affected them each differently. From the rumors of wild magic powers in Hawaii, I might have a strange purple object have landed in the western Pacific Ocean, and bands of its effects spread out from there.


I generally ignore calls about whether this or that author is a racist, from either side. It doesn't affect my gaming.

Bolding mine, I don't care to adress the rest:

And you'd be correct IF I were a fucking SJW, nope, playing an elfgame has no moral implications, just like having always evil orcs doesn't make one a notzee.

It's your side that can't differentiate between fantasy and real life my dude.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 03, 2023, 04:44:07 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 03, 2023, 01:49:48 PM
I have read the game, though, and I don't see a problem with the setting itself or the game mechanics. I think the learning curve will be too difficult for most play groups, but I have nothing against people who bought the game or are playing the game -- which is where my son comes into it. It seems to me that from the way you describe it, people who bought or play the game are a problem because the game setting itself is a moral wrong -- but I don't see that from reading the game. As I was quoted in the original post for this thread, it does seem to me to be at most equivalent to a setting like Ezcalli.

Bolding mine, I don't care to adress the rest:

And you'd be correct IF I were a fucking SJW, nope, playing an elfgame has no moral implications, just like having always evil orcs doesn't make one a notzee.

Cool. If you have no problems with people playing Coyote & Crow, then I think we're pretty close to agreement. I'm satisfied to leave it at that.

I don't know this game.  Haven't read it, haven't played it.  Have no plans to play it.

I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

Quote from: RhaezDaevan on April 04, 2023, 08:50:48 AM
I don't know this game.  Haven't read it, haven't played it.  Have no plans to play it.

I am curious if people really think that if a TTRPG doesn't have playable white people that it is inherently racist though.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what GeekyBugle is so mad about.

I don't think anyone has a problem with there being no playable white people - there was no equivalent outcry with the Mouse Guard RPG, for example. So yes, I think you've misunderstood. Perhaps you should reread the relevant posts in the original thread to see the complaint.