Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on June 23, 2024, 04:33:27 PMWell, some would say that to be a biological determinist is to be a sexist, if "sexism" is defined as the belief that there are broad biologically-based neurological and psychological differences between men and women which social acculturation can only partially compensate for.

I think Gygax's personal sample set may have happened to skew low; I'd guess the proportion of long-term female players in the hobby is well over 3% these days. However, I would also not be at all surprised to find it falling well short of 50%, no matter how one construes the stats. I don't think biology is deterministic, but it's highly influential.

"biological determinist" they mean genetics.  Your genes denote who you are and what you can become.  You might be able to bump your IQ up a few points with training, but you are not going to take a Jeremy Crawford (85 IQ) and get him to come up with the theory of relativity (Einstein 160 IQ).  Hell Einstein would view Crawford as an ape. 

Now, if you ever run into a leftist who uses biological essentialist/determinist ask them this:

Do you believe some people are better than others?

They will say no.

Follow up:

So with the same training as Usian bolt you can match his 100M dash?

If they say yes, ask them if they have the ACTN3 gene at the same level of expression as Usian.

They will say no, and you follow up so there are people better than you at least right?

Follow up next with the mental question:


With the same education as Einstein could you come up with the theory of relativity?

They will say yes, then you tell them Einstein was a mutant, he was missing grey matter that put two of his lobes closer than normal which gave him a different view on the world.  You would never be an Einstein without that mutation.

You will not change a leftard, but you will cause them to experience extreme cognitive dissonance.  I love doing that to them whenever I can.

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2024, 02:21:33 AMHowever, at the end of the day, women are not as attracted to traditional RPG's as men are. Obviously, more simulationist, rules, math=less women. More soap opera, drama, and sex=more women.

SHARK, your statement here directly contradicts Gygax's statements,

Quote from: Gary GygaxAs a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

I agree that different RPGs will have different appeal to men and women. There will always be population differences between men and women liking things, and the ratio won't be the same for every game.
 

Quote from: jhkim on June 24, 2024, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2024, 02:21:33 AMHowever, at the end of the day, women are not as attracted to traditional RPG's as men are. Obviously, more simulationist, rules, math=less women. More soap opera, drama, and sex=more women.

SHARK, your statement here directly contradicts Gygax's statements,

Quote from: Gary GygaxAs a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

I agree that different RPGs will have different appeal to men and women. There will always be population differences between men and women liking things, and the ratio won't be the same for every game.
 

No, it doesn't.  Gygax is referring to "role playing game" by his use of the term "game."  And to him, a role playing game was simulationist, with lots of rules and math.  It's what he wrote, played, and designed.  Gary contrasting RPGs with LARPs is exactly the contrast SHARK is making.  Which, if you weren't so disingenuous, you would easily admit.

Quote from: Brad on June 24, 2024, 09:13:24 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMI'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs.

And yet, people with XX chromosomes do not seem to like RPGs as much as those with XY. For a scientist, you sure do suck at actually making any sort of legitimate conclusion from real data. Even by your own statistics, men are way over-represented. Women were certainly never excluded from playing (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit), they just didn't fucking care. At all. When I played in high school, zero girls played RPGs with us. There was a gaming store I frequented that had two older female regulars out of probably 100 people. Every once in a while a dude would bring his girlfriend and sometimes the girl would seem to enjoy it, but they rarely lasted longer than a couple weeks.

If it's not biological, then what is it? Why do boys like to play with tractors and girls like dolls? As the parent of a young girl and boy, I can assure you they have interests that are inherent to their being; anyone who claims otherwise is just pushing a horseshit agenda.

Patriarchy, silly! Evolution stopped at our necks, and everything is socially constructed. Men are horrible oppressors and the way to make things better is for women to act exactly like men.

My feminist tactic to get more girls and women playing is to force them like in that scene in Clockwork Orange.

[/s, of course]

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 24, 2024, 02:25:43 PMWith the same education as Einstein could you come up with the theory of relativity?

They will say yes, then you tell them Einstein was a mutant, he was missing grey matter that put two of his lobes closer than normal which gave him a different view on the world.  You would never be an Einstein without that mutation.

ORLY? https://www.unz.com/lromanoff/a-few-historical-frauds/

Quote from: Hobo on June 24, 2024, 03:59:50 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 24, 2024, 02:25:43 PMWith the same education as Einstein could you come up with the theory of relativity?

They will say yes, then you tell them Einstein was a mutant, he was missing grey matter that put two of his lobes closer than normal which gave him a different view on the world.  You would never be an Einstein without that mutation.

ORLY? https://www.unz.com/lromanoff/a-few-historical-frauds/

You are aware that there are direct appeals to anti-Semitic tropes in that piece (claims that Einstein was promoted by the "Jewish-controlled media", etc.)?  Unless you were posting it as a joke, I wouldn't put to much faith in any of its conclusions...

Given the size of this hobby, the number of men who like playing tabletop RPGs is also a pretty small minority of the overall male demographic. Even today, "I play Dungeons and Dragons" isn't the recommended first answer for an attractive stranger in a bar asking you what you do for fun.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 24, 2024, 02:25:43 PMYou are aware that there are direct appeals to anti-Semitic tropes in that piece (claims that Einstein was promoted by the "Jewish-controlled media", etc.)?  Unless you were posting it as a joke, I wouldn't put to much faith in any of its conclusions...

You are aware that Ron Unz, the editor and host of the site is Jewish, right? And the irony of appealing to "tropes" and ignoring the sources and referenced data in a thread where you literally just accused someone else of ignoring data on another issue?

Unless your point was that everyone has blind spots where no matter what the evidence says, they will absolutely never admit it has any validity if it violates a sacred cow of their personal view of the world.

Quote from: Hobo on June 24, 2024, 06:37:58 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 24, 2024, 02:25:43 PMYou are aware that there are direct appeals to anti-Semitic tropes in that piece (claims that Einstein was promoted by the "Jewish-controlled media", etc.)?  Unless you were posting it as a joke, I wouldn't put to much faith in any of its conclusions...

You are aware that Ron Unz, the editor and host of the site is Jewish, right? And the irony of appealing to "tropes" and ignoring the sources and referenced data in a thread where you literally just accused someone else of ignoring data on another issue?

Unless your point was that everyone has blind spots where no matter what the evidence says, they will absolutely never admit it has any validity if it violates a sacred cow of their personal view of the world.

You are aware that the ethnic background of a person does not immunize them from spreading racist statements.

So, do you agree with the following statement from the article (which has no linked sources or citations):

QuoteEinstein was Jewish and had the support of the Jewish-controlled media who conspired to create yet another historical myth.

Yes or no?  I'm sure Pundit will also be very interested in your answer...

Quote from: jhkim on June 24, 2024, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2024, 02:21:33 AMHowever, at the end of the day, women are not as attracted to traditional RPG's as men are. Obviously, more simulationist, rules, math=less women. More soap opera, drama, and sex=more women.

SHARK, your statement here directly contradicts Gygax's statements,

Quote from: Gary GygaxAs a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

I agree that different RPGs will have different appeal to men and women. There will always be population differences between men and women liking things, and the ratio won't be the same for every game.
 

Greetings!

Well, as for *contradicting* the Great Gygax, that may be, or rather, I am merely observing dynamics that reached into the future that Gygax may have been unfamiliar with.

VAMPIRE THE MASQUERADE.

Beyond that particular game--any D&D game, or other RPG, that leans more into drama, soap operas, and sex, will assuredly attract more women. I have personally witnessed this dynamic in action myself, with women players.

Men, on the other hand, are more drawn to math, simulationism, and action.

In addition, the growth of 5E D&D also supports my statement forcefully.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 24, 2024, 03:10:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 24, 2024, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2024, 02:21:33 AMHowever, at the end of the day, women are not as attracted to traditional RPG's as men are. Obviously, more simulationist, rules, math=less women. More soap opera, drama, and sex=more women.

SHARK, your statement here directly contradicts Gygax's statements,

Quote from: Gary GygaxAs a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

I agree that different RPGs will have different appeal to men and women. There will always be population differences between men and women liking things, and the ratio won't be the same for every game.
 

No, it doesn't.  Gygax is referring to "role playing game" by his use of the term "game."  And to him, a role playing game was simulationist, with lots of rules and math.  It's what he wrote, played, and designed.  Gary contrasting RPGs with LARPs is exactly the contrast SHARK is making.  Which, if you weren't so disingenuous, you would easily admit.

Greetings!

EXACTLY! Thank you, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 24, 2024, 07:06:47 PMYou are aware that the ethnic background of a person does not immunize them from spreading racist statements.

So, do you agree with the following statement from the article (which has no linked sources or citations):

QuoteEinstein was Jewish and had the support of the Jewish-controlled media who conspired to create yet another historical myth.

Yes or no?  I'm sure Pundit will also be very interested in your answer...

Typical. "I found one offhand statement I didn't like which isn't sourced, so I dismiss the entire article AND it's extensive sourced links full of primary sources, AND assume a smug moral high ground position from which to posture and appeal to an assumptive friendly authority to protect myself from being challenged."

Real strong-looking position you're taking there.

Quote from: Hobo on June 25, 2024, 07:56:30 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 24, 2024, 07:06:47 PMYou are aware that the ethnic background of a person does not immunize them from spreading racist statements.

So, do you agree with the following statement from the article (which has no linked sources or citations):

QuoteEinstein was Jewish and had the support of the Jewish-controlled media who conspired to create yet another historical myth.

Yes or no?  I'm sure Pundit will also be very interested in your answer...

Typical. "I found one offhand statement I didn't like which isn't sourced, so I dismiss the entire article AND it's extensive sourced links full of primary sources, AND assume a smug moral high ground position from which to posture and appeal to an assumptive friendly authority to protect myself from being challenged."

Real strong-looking position you're taking there.

When you add shit to an ice cream sundae, the shit ruins the sundae; the sundae doesn't make the shit better.  Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

Now answer the question: do you agree with the quote from the article?

I never cared if Gary was sexist or not. He wrote the game I play and love.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 25, 2024, 08:45:38 AMWhen you add shit to an ice cream sundae, the shit ruins the sundae; the sundae doesn't make the shit better.  Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

No, that's not how it works. You're taking a cowardly SJW tactic of "scan for some offhand comment buried in a link I can pretend to be offended by" followed by "dismiss everything factual that I don't want to face because of said offhand comment" combined with "attempt to cancel the person who I'm pretending to be offended by so I never have to face the sources that I don't want to see ever again."

That makes you a liar and a bad faith actor.

QuoteNow answer the question: do you agree with the quote from the article?

I don't owe any answers to liars and bad faith actors, especially about off topic non sequiturs.