From the thread off the list (from which I'm thread banned so I can't argue there and thought this warranted it's own thread).

Quote from: jhkim on June 22, 2024, 02:10:30 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 22, 2024, 01:58:09 AMSaw this tossed out on a forum as "proof" Gygax was sexist. Think one of the woke members here parroted it too. But this does not sound like something Gygax would say. There were wimen playing from the start and women working on the game from the start. Art, editing, typesetting, modules.

I believe this is from 2005, with Gary posting as Col_Pladoh on the Dragonsfoot forums in the thread "Q&A With Gary Gygax, Part III".

QuoteThere were never many female gamers in our group. My daughter Elise was one of two original play-testers for the first draft of what became the D&D game, and both of her younger sisters played...and lost interest in a few months as she did.

In our campaign group that cycled through in a couple of years (74-75) something in the neighborhood of 100 or so different players, there were perhaps three females.

As a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

This calls to mind when Lionel made pastel colored trains and train cars to appeal to females. The effort bombed, the sets were recalled and re-dine as standard models, and those pastel ones that survived are rare collectors items.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12147&start=60

I'm not claiming anything about it - just giving the source and context.

I think it's safe from the words to assume it is indeed Gary.

I also think it proves quite the opposite of the sexist accusation:

QuoteAs a biological determinist, I am positive that most females do not play RPGs because of a difference in brain function. They can play as well as males, but they do not achieve the same sense of satisfaction from playing.

In short there is no special game that will attract females--other that LARPing, which is more csocialization and theatrics and gaming--and it is a waste of time and effort to attempt such a thing.

So, in his opinion as a biological determinist women can play as well as males, but they don't want to, because the game doesn't appeal to them as much as to males.

Now, you'll always find exceptions to the rule, and he didn't had the benefit of hindsight to know that if it became cool then more women would play, because peer pressure works more on females than in males.

The moment it stops being cool some of the current female players will drop out, if it becomes acceptable to bully those who play AGAIN then most female players will drop out, because they don't want to be outcasts among their female freenemies group.

Sadly, people are being 100% retarded because Gygax was right. The same kinds of moronic shitheads that will go on, ad nauseum, about how they 'support the science', except when it smacks them square in the face. And yes, it was on Dragonsfoot many, many moons ago.

I completely support and agree, with what Gary said.  He pretty much said that based upon his own personal experience, women play RPG's just as well as men do; but they don't seem to enjoy it as much, long term.  He had personal experience, and a good point of reference.

Surely, some women enjoy it much more.  They'd make great DM's or players.   

Is csocialization a typo?

Well, some would say that to be a biological determinist is to be a sexist, if "sexism" is defined as the belief that there are broad biologically-based neurological and psychological differences between men and women which social acculturation can only partially compensate for.

I think Gygax's personal sample set may have happened to skew low; I'd guess the proportion of long-term female players in the hobby is well over 3% these days. However, I would also not be at all surprised to find it falling well short of 50%, no matter how one construes the stats. I don't think biology is deterministic, but it's highly influential.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on June 23, 2024, 04:33:27 PMI think Gygax's personal sample set may have happened to skew low; I'd guess the proportion of long-term female players in the hobby is well over 3% these days. However, I would also not be at all surprised to find it falling well short of 50%, no matter how one construes the stats. I don't think biology is deterministic, but it's highly influential.

I'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs. Gygax cites 3% women in his early games, but women were 19% of RPG players in 1999 according to the pre-3E survey of the time, and they were surveyed at 38% or so recently. If interest was biologically determined, then I wouldn't expect the numbers to change that much.

Some of that may be RPG design, but some may well be changes in the wider culture. For example, the nerd culture in Japan is significantly different than the U.S., with more of female-targeted ("shoujo") manga and anime. I don't know of any surveys with hard numbers, but I've heard that the Japanese RPG scene also has a lot of women - particularly in Call of Cthulhu (which is bigger than D&D in Japan).

Who cares? I sure don't

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMI'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs. Gygax cites 3% women in his early games, but women were 19% of RPG players in 1999 according to the pre-3E survey of the time, and they were surveyed at 38% or so recently. If interest was biologically determined, then I wouldn't expect the numbers to change that much.  Some of that may be RPG design....

To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins for a second, I'm more than half inclined to say more than half of it is game design. In my experience very few women tend to be the kind of math-focused detail junkies that first-gen old-school RPGs tended to be designed for and to reward; I would not be surprised to find that increase in female interest coincided with the change in design philosophy that focused on simpler, story-facilitating mechanics over gamist/simulationist systems.

I'd also want to know if those surveys document long-term players, people who've been in the hobby for a minimum of five years, and preferably closer to ten; remember, Gygax didn't say that the women he'd played with weren't good players or didn't enjoy playing, merely that they tended to lose interest sooner.

I don't believe in biological determinism either, at least to the extent that I refuse to draw conclusions about any given individual based solely on the patterns of whatever groups that person may fall into. But if simply observing the existence of those group patterns is considered ipso facto grounds for accusations of sexism, Gygax is never going to be considered innocent of such accusations.

Gary doesn't give two craps if somebody thinks he is a sexist right now. He is on to bigger and better things.

Also, if women make up 51 or 52% of the population and don't make up that much in TTRPGs, then yes, on the whole they do enjoy it less.

Edit: But I agree with Geeky, no evidence that he was sexist.

Gary was right.
Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women

Quote"In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys' parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. A much more recent study established that boys and girls 9 to 17 months old — an age when children show few if any signs of recognizing either their own or other children's sex — nonetheless show marked differences in their preference for stereotypically male versus stereotypically female toys."

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMI'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs. Gygax cites 3% women in his early games, but women were 19% of RPG players in 1999 according to the pre-3E survey of the time, and they were surveyed at 38% or so recently. If interest was biologically determined, then I wouldn't expect the numbers to change that much.

I think its believable that in his experience, that's what he got. How much effort did they actually make to market the game to girls during his time with TSR?

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMSome of that may be RPG design, but some may well be changes in the wider culture. For example, the nerd culture in Japan is significantly different than the U.S., with more of female-targeted ("shoujo") manga and anime. I don't know of any surveys with hard numbers, but I've heard that the Japanese RPG scene also has a lot of women - particularly in Call of Cthulhu (which is bigger than D&D in Japan).

Manga and anime in Japan are just formats for delivery of content to specific groups. For example, I've seen old guys riding the subway reading golf manga that incorporates tips and techniques for improving their game, or manga that incorporates cooking and the like.

It wouldn't surprise me if CoC in Japan had a higher female ratio than in the USA. There are certain types of horror especially that attracts girls in Japan, which really has no equivalent here, like all the horror movies that involve cell phones. There is also original CoC content there including some less 20s focused stuff. My kid had a fantastic looking book on modern Japanese occupations in CoC.

Greetings!

Gary was right, as usual.

Certainly, there have always been women in gaming. There are more women gamers today, as well.

However, at the end of the day, women are not as attracted to traditional RPG's as men are. Obviously, more simulationist, rules, math=less women. More soap opera, drama, and sex=more women.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMI'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs.

And yet, people with XX chromosomes do not seem to like RPGs as much as those with XY. For a scientist, you sure do suck at actually making any sort of legitimate conclusion from real data. Even by your own statistics, men are way over-represented. Women were certainly never excluded from playing (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit), they just didn't fucking care. At all. When I played in high school, zero girls played RPGs with us. There was a gaming store I frequented that had two older female regulars out of probably 100 people. Every once in a while a dude would bring his girlfriend and sometimes the girl would seem to enjoy it, but they rarely lasted longer than a couple weeks.

If it's not biological, then what is it? Why do boys like to play with tractors and girls like dolls? As the parent of a young girl and boy, I can assure you they have interests that are inherent to their being; anyone who claims otherwise is just pushing a horseshit agenda.

Quote from: Brad on June 24, 2024, 09:13:24 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 05:43:01 PMI'm skeptical that women are biologically determined not to like RPGs.

And yet, people with XX chromosomes do not seem to like RPGs as much as those with XY. For a scientist, you sure do suck at actually making any sort of legitimate conclusion from real data. Even by your own statistics, men are way over-represented. Women were certainly never excluded from playing (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit), they just didn't fucking care. At all. When I played in high school, zero girls played RPGs with us. There was a gaming store I frequented that had two older female regulars out of probably 100 people. Every once in a while a dude would bring his girlfriend and sometimes the girl would seem to enjoy it, but they rarely lasted longer than a couple weeks.

If it's not biological, then what is it? Why do boys like to play with tractors and girls like dolls? As the parent of a young girl and boy, I can assure you they have interests that are inherent to their being; anyone who claims otherwise is just pushing a horseshit agenda.

It's funny how quickly "trust the science!" falls by the wayside when the "science" seems to say something lefties don't like.  The biological differentiation of interests based on sex are very well known and well established, both in evolutionary biology and psychology.  Evidence is overwhelming that, the more free the choice is, the more men and women tend to pick different things, whether it is hobbies, employment, entertainment, etc.  This is one of the bedrock understandings of human behavior... except for the folks who are social constructionists (read "commies") and refuse to acknowledge it.  Honestly, the whole "gender studies" disciplines (designed to obfuscate these differences) are less scientific than the creationists, yet far more acceptable to the left, somehow...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 24, 2024, 09:51:48 AMIt's funny how quickly "trust the science!" falls by the wayside when the "science" seems to say something lefties don't like.

The irony is that very often the "science" says far less than the press releases about the science claim it does, and it's the press releases that propagandists (of any stripe) are most concerned with.

As long as a game is designed to provide as much equal entertainment potential possible to any individual (or is at least honest about which individuals it's seeking to entertain), and as long as any given group is honest about its own participation requirements and gives any individual person the best shot possible at meeting them, I don't think anybody needs to worry about the "science". (Unless of course you work in a marketing department somewhere.)