I played a lot of the WoD stuff back in the 90s and early 2000s, and while I liked the edgy goth settings, the rule mechanics were a ton of awful. A basic combat took an entire night. The now-misnamed new World of Darkness rolled out, and while I wasn't a big fan of most of the new setting stuff, the rule mechanics had been significantly streamlined. It's head and shoulders better than the original stuff. So now there's 5th edition Vampire, with I assume the other settings coming sooner or later. Is there anyone here who's used both nWoD and the 5th edition stuff who can say if the rule improvements have remained? If they've gone back to the clunkier rules, I'd really rather just house-rule the nWoD system into the original settings.
One of my players had all 5 versions at some point and didnt seem to think much of it past 2nd ed No clue what the particulars were to that dislike though. At a guess they did not like the streamlined rules. For the same reasons they dont like 5th ed D&D and prefer 3rd Ed.
While you may or may not wish to support Onyx Path, the 20th Anniversary Editions have done about as good a job cleaning up the system and incorporating more 21st century elements to it as could reasonably be expected without making it NOT the World of Darkness.
And while I don't particularly appreciate the political slant in the new Mage, they did include all older content and the revamp of the magic system (particularly the Supplement "How Do You Do That?" which dropped all the pretentious in-character subjective reality fluff for a solid mechanical discussion) was a huge improvement over previous versions so credit where it's due.
My group played a bunch of the nWoD. We liked it in general. While some of the setting material was hit or miss (most preferred Masquerade to Requiem but liked Forsaken over Apocalypse) the rules were seen as a general improvement.
When they updated to the God-Machine version of the WoD rules we dumped out. The whole conditions and social maneuvering stuff lost us.
Vampire 5e though, is a pretty big hit for my group. The back to basics nature of the setting combined with a nicely streamlined rules set won us all over. After playing for a couple months now I can say the Hunger mechanic works great and is a much better mechanic than counting Blood Points. We were pretty disappointed that White Wolf got shafted and lost control of the game. What we've seen since from OPP has been a let down and we're pretty much just going to stick to the core book.
I'm currently running Vampire. I've run and played every edition up until 5th (but I do own it).
I've happily settled on 20th Anniversary edition as the best choice for me for these reasons -
1) Classic cosmology is the best.
2) While I *really* like the mechanics of NWoD (now Chronicles of Darkness) the updates they've done to 20th Anniversary really brought it in close contention
3) 5e left me cold. Fluffwise it's interesting (to a point), but the mechanics I found were clunky, even though I understood what they were trying to emphasize (Hunger dice for instance). I felt it could have been done with less of a footprint. Overall - it didn't impress me much systemically.
NWoD mechanics are solid up to God Machine. They are very consistent and if you like crossover stuff it's plug and play. Mage gets a little weird in its implementation - but it's playable. That cosmology blows tho. There are splats that specifically shine brightly: Changeling and Hunter (in fact I'm converting Changleing to my V20 game). They are *by far* imo the best games and worth the price for entry. Vampire is good (cosmology is eh). Werewolf is under-powered but easily fixable - the cosmology is weak, but fixable.
God Machine... felt like pretentious crap.
nWoD 1e hands down has the most elegant implementation of the ST/d10 mechanics, though they aren't without flaw (http://garglinggoblin.blogspot.com/2013/01/problems-with-world-of-darkness-rpg.html). The biggest flaw is that you apply all bonuses and penalties to rolls before the roll is made, so the player is always aware of the bonuses and penalties even if their character shouldn't be. Some people like to whine and complain about personality mechanics like virtue, vice, morality, etc. I consider those things window dressing myself.
V5 hands down has a much better superpowers mechanic. Rather than one power at each level, you can select one of many. The flaw here is that you can't buy powers out of order even tho most of the time they aren't logical progressions of the same effect. As such, getting new powers can often feel like filler.
All in all, I cannot in good conscience recommend any World of Darkness game. The rules are always terribly designed, so you're always better off playing a different systems entirely like BRP or Mutants & Masterminds or something. The only useful aspect of World of Darkness games would be the settings, and only Hunter: The Vigil and Changeling: The Lost are particularly creative in that regard. Otherwise, the settings don't really provide any useful information to the GM or players like you would expect from say, the indie scene's love of random generation tables.
I would recommend playing any other urban fantasy game, like Dresden Files, Liminal, Feed, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts, Actual Fucking Monsters, Nephilim, Everlasting, Invisible War, WitchCraft, yadda yadda depending on precisely what kind of experience you're looking for.
If you're into playing vampires with superpowers and deteriorating humanity, then your best choice would probably be Feed. Feed is a toolkit game that gives you guidelines for making your own rules for vampirism, and only comes with some limited sample settings to get your creativity flowing. So if you like the setting of Vampire: The Masquerade, then you can use it with Feed's rules.
If you're into playing a monster mash with a similar irreverence for life as a typical Call of Cthulhu campaign, then you're best off playing Actual Fucking Monsters. There's even a conversion of Nightlife (which isn't available at any e-retailer) called Actual Fucking Nightlife (https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/tag/actual-fucking-nightlife/).
If you like politics in a game that bothers to provide any mechanics to support it, then you're probably best off playing Urban Shadows or Monsterhearts.
If you like playing reincarnating immortals embroiled in occult conflicts with secret societies, then I recommend Invisible War, Nephilim, or WitchCraft.
All in all, you're better off writing your own setting rather than letting World of Darkness fanboys dictate to you the "right" way to play. Part of the reason I left the fandom years ago was largely in part due to their religious obsession with the lore.
V20 is worth a look if you're looking for that trademarked romantic goth-angst. You can drive really big trucks through the rules without worrying about scratching the paint, but it is intuitive, flexible and comprehensive. Much of the wonkyness is easily houseruled if you're so inclined. Sadly you cannot houserule some of the horrendous art direction.
For those of you with experience with nWoD 1e Vampire, is the game pretty playable with just the core Vampire book (plus the World of Darkness book, of course) or would you say some of the many, many sourcebooks were needed? I have a lot of experience with WtF and picked up the Vampire book and screen on a whim back when I used to run a Forsaken campaign, but I never had a chance to give it a really close look as far as planning a vampire campaign. It's something I've always considered but I was wondering if trying to make a go of things with just the core book would be too much trouble.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesIf you like politics in a game that bothers to provide any mechanics to support it, then you're probably best off playing Urban Shadows or Monsterhearts.
In this same line, Undying is also very good.
Quote from: Brand55;1125333For those of you with experience with nWoD 1e Vampire, is the game pretty playable with just the core Vampire book (plus the World of Darkness book, of course) or would you say some of the many, many sourcebooks were needed? I have a lot of experience with WtF and picked up the Vampire book and screen on a whim back when I used to run a Forsaken campaign, but I never had a chance to give it a really close look as far as planning a vampire campaign. It's something I've always considered but I was wondering if trying to make a go of things with just the core book would be too much trouble.
All you honestly need are the core books. Perhaps the bloodline books for more "prestige class" options. You might dig the Khaibits as much as I do.
Quote from: Brand55;1125333For those of you with experience with nWoD 1e Vampire, is the game pretty playable with just the core Vampire book (plus the World of Darkness book, of course) or would you say some of the many, many sourcebooks were needed? I have a lot of experience with WtF and picked up the Vampire book and screen on a whim back when I used to run a Forsaken campaign, but I never had a chance to give it a really close look as far as planning a vampire campaign. It's something I've always considered but I was wondering if trying to make a go of things with just the core book would be too much trouble.
Here's the thing about nWoD: It's got basically nothing to do. White Wolf was so desperate to distance itself from the dumpster fire that was the whole time of judgment metaplot fiasco that when it re-wrote the settings it left out basically any kind of urgent antagonists. Vampire spends maybe four pages mentioning that there are probably some weird or evil vampires out there, and they might be bad or something. There is nothing on the scale of the Sabbat, the Technocracy, the Wyrm. So it's entirely on the GM to work something out if they don't want the players just aimlessly wandering around.
So, more specifically to answer your question: Vampire and the nWoD core book provide everything you need, mechanically, to run a perfectly good vampire game. They do not, however, provide even a barely-sufficient
setting. If that makes sense to you.
Quote from: Valatar;1125362Here's the thing about nWoD: It's got basically nothing to do. White Wolf was so desperate to distance itself from the dumpster fire that was the whole time of judgment metaplot fiasco that when it re-wrote the settings it left out basically any kind of urgent antagonists. Vampire spends maybe four pages mentioning that there are probably some weird or evil vampires out there, and they might be bad or something. There is nothing on the scale of the Sabbat, the Technocracy, the Wyrm. So it's entirely on the GM to work something out if they don't want the players just aimlessly wandering around.
So, more specifically to answer your question: Vampire and the nWoD core book provide everything you need, mechanically, to run a perfectly good vampire game. They do not, however, provide even a barely-sufficient setting. If that makes sense to you.
"Nothing to do"? Sure it doesn't, if you think "something to do" always equates to violent murder fantasies. It's entirely feasible to play adventures where you don't go around killing people. You could solve mysteries, fall in love, perform odd jobs, accumulate wealth and power, go on a quest for the holy grail, search for shangri-la...
Color me puzzled with the "nothing to do" too. There are a dozen rival clans whose members are vying for control inside the clan and for the Camarilla as a whole. As a political intrigue game that seems more than enough to me. And going further, I think having clear antagonists actually detracts from that setup, because it sacrifices the nuance that the clash of clans philosophies and outlooks bring in lieu of a simplistic "fight the evil guys" view.
And 5th edition is the best one for me, due to the streamlined rules and "back to the basics" setting.
As Valatar has said above once they wrote themselves into a complete corner with the time of judgement meta-plot they wanted a fresh start with NWOD with none.
I prefer NWOD for it being generic and allowing one to build the setting as is. Yes their is no setting yet once can build it to suit their own tastes. They released enough equally generic sourcebooks that one could if they wanted too and had the time to craft their own preferred version.
I never truly understood the old WOD meta-plot. It was such a strange thing to put into an rpg. The world ends, nothing and no one can stop it, everyone is screwed. It may have been flavorful yet also very limiting as well.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125367"Nothing to do"? Sure it doesn't, if you think "something to do" always equates to violent murder fantasies. It's entirely feasible to play adventures where you don't go around killing people. You could solve mysteries, fall in love, perform odd jobs, accumulate wealth and power, go on a quest for the holy grail, search for shangri-la...
Very much agreed and seconded. If the GM and players only want to play a certain way then yes it can be boring. If not so much potential gaming ideas for a group to do. With WOD Innocents sourcebook one can play the kids from the new IT movie having to fight monsters only they can see and almost no adults do.
Quote from: sureshot;1125377I prefer NWOD for it being generic and allowing one to build the setting as is. Yes their is no setting yet once can build it to suit their own tastes. They released enough equally generic sourcebooks that one could if they wanted too and had the time to craft their own preferred version.
Technically there is a setting, it's just scattered across the books rather than conveniently gathered into one great history.
The setting is only really generic for
Lost and
Vigil. The others are much more limited in terms of their creativity with the concept, since they usually have a quasi-metaplot (e.g. Father Wolf, Atlantis, Strix, God-Machine) and/or needlessly restrictive rules (e.g. all vampires follow the same quasi-Ricean logic aside from clans).
One of the reasons I always preferred Mage to Vampire or Werewolf was that, until 3rd edition dragged it in, the setting was "End Times" free (also, until 3rd Edition decided to change the fundamental nature of avatars to be separate entities that happened to ride around in a human host, you were playing a human who knew magic, not an undead or nature spirit with alien drives).
One of my favorite things about the 20th Anniversary Editions for all three was how they essentially chalked up the whole End Times element to turn of the millennium hysteria akin to Y2K and that everyone who'd been screaming about it is just kinda embarrassed about the whole thing.
The sixth maelstrom died down eventually so all the wraiths possessing corpses returned to the underworld and the associated avatar storm and increased paradox died down with it. The Red Star faded away, just another misread portent (perhaps associated with the rise and now disappearance of the Imbued Hunters), and more of the elder Ravnos survived than intially believed.
Basically all the 20th Anniversary lines seemed to aiming for a more 1-2e status quo, but with cleaned up rules (I'll say again, they made the Mage magic system functional without navel-gazing GM intervention) and updated technology.
Mage does include options for running the game as if the 3e End Time dying magic metaplot was still in effect, but since even the 3e writers at the time couldn't keep that up and slowly introduced ways around all the dying magic elements before it was all over. The other settings didn't have nearly so great a change in mechanics between 1-2e and 3e though so they didn't need as many alternate rules.
For people who like Vampire but not the mechanics, what's the opinion on using GURPS? I got Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf GURPS sourcebooks for like $1 each years ago at Half Priced Books, never even cracked them open.
Quote from: Itachi;1125373Color me puzzled with the "nothing to do" too. There are a dozen rival clans whose members are vying for control inside the clan and for the Camarilla as a whole. As a political intrigue game that seems more than enough to me. And going further, I think having clear antagonists actually detracts from that setup, because it sacrifices the nuance that the clash of clans philosophies and outlooks bring in lieu of a simplistic "fight the evil guys" view.
And 5th edition is the best one for me, due to the streamlined rules and "back to the basics" setting.
That's old World of Darkness. (And I guess new new World of Darkness, since 5e brought the originals back.) New World of Darkness doesn't have the Camarilla, only has like five clans, and they are as written in the books only vaguely not possessed with brotherly love for one another. Politicking and conflict are both heavily reduced in nWoD vampire.
Old Mage: You're fighting over reality itself! (and probably losing)
New Mage: There's some Atlantean mages trapped in another universe and they maybe don't like you much, but nobody can see or communicate with them so who can say?
Old Werewolf: EVERYTHING'S FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED
New Werewolf: You're the janitors of the spirit world, don't let spirits be naughty. And some other werewolves you've never met think you suck for reasons and if you ever meet one they'll probably fight.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125385One of the reasons I always preferred Mage to Vampire or Werewolf was that, until 3rd edition dragged it in, the setting was "End Times" free (also, until 3rd Edition decided to change the fundamental nature of avatars to be separate entities that happened to ride around in a human host, you were playing a human who knew magic, not an undead or nature spirit with alien drives).
One of my favorite things about the 20th Anniversary Editions for all three was how they essentially chalked up the whole End Times element to turn of the millennium hysteria akin to Y2K and that everyone who'd been screaming about it is just kinda embarrassed about the whole thing.
The sixth maelstrom died down eventually so all the wraiths possessing corpses returned to the underworld and the associated avatar storm and increased paradox died down with it. The Red Star faded away, just another misread portent (perhaps associated with the rise and now disappearance of the Imbued Hunters), and more of the elder Ravnos survived than intially believed.
The end times were present since the inception of the games. The metaplot ramped up in the late 90s because the RPG market was crashing at the time and the marketing department thought a metaplot and new editions would boost sales.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125385Basically all the 20th Anniversary lines seemed to aiming for a more 1-2e status quo, but with cleaned up rules
The 5e is continuing the metaplot. Among other things, V5 effectively disbanded the Camarilla and Sabbat, isolated the cities from one another, dramatically altered how superpowers work, and generally made changes almost as extreme as
Vampire: The Requiem.
This in preparation for Paradox's video game adaptation,
Bloodlines 2.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125385(I'll say again, they made the Mage magic system functional without navel-gazing GM intervention)
So did
Mage: The Awakening and
Ars Magica.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125385and updated technology.
"Updated technology"? That sounds dated as hell. I get the impression that most fans are dudes in their forties.
Once upon a time I used to be a rabid consumer of World of Darkness material. Now the setting does not interest me. It strikes me as dated, poorly designed, and trapped in a very tiny box. Reading the heartbreakers like
Everlasting,
WitchCraft, etc feels like a breath of fresh air in a sealed bunker.
So when I learned that Paradox killed off the Camarilla and replaced them with a new set of factions in their upcoming video game, I was not surprised. I am really hoping that one day Paradox kills the tabletop entirely, because I am sick to death of it monopolizing the urban fantasy tabletop market.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125385Mage does include options for running the game as if the 3e End Time dying magic metaplot was still in effect, but since even the 3e writers at the time couldn't keep that up and slowly introduced ways around all the dying magic elements before it was all over. The other settings didn't have nearly so great a change in mechanics between 1-2e and 3e though so they didn't need as many alternate rules.
Quote from: Valatar;1125388That's old World of Darkness. (And I guess new new World of Darkness, since 5e brought the originals back.) New World of Darkness doesn't have the Camarilla, only has like five clans, and they are as written in the books only vaguely not possessed with brotherly love for one another. Politicking and conflict are both heavily reduced in nWoD vampire.
Old Mage: You're fighting over reality itself! (and probably losing)
New Mage: There's some Atlantean mages trapped in another universe and they maybe don't like you much, but nobody can see or communicate with them so who can say?
Old Werewolf: EVERYTHING'S FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED
New Werewolf: You're the janitors of the spirit world, don't let spirits be naughty. And some other werewolves you've never met think you suck for reasons and if you ever meet one they'll probably fight.
Chronicles of Darkness/New World of Darkness/whatever has been continuously published for around sixteen years now. World of Darkness went on hiatus after thirteen years.
Saying that Chronicles of Darkness has a less detailed or interesting setting than World of Darkness is just plain ignorant. Have you ever read any of the recently published books?
World of Darkness fans were butthurt their favorite game went on hiatus, got irrationally angry that a new game (one made to attract new audiences at the behest of the marketing team because of the early 2000s market crunch) was not a carbon copy of the previous one, and sixteen years later they
still cannot get over it even though the hiatus has been over for eight or nine years now.
I do not like either iteration of the IP, but I am sick to death of this constant nonsense. If you are going to make pronouncements about sixteen year old games, then it would probably make sense to actually read them and make sure you are not talking out of your ass.
Your going to be shocked, but both mages are the same thing. Don't believe me, then go read Imperial Mysteries which is a handy supplement for running archmage games in Mage: the Awakening. Basically the world are what all mages before had made from their will. So I am both right and wrong. It all depends who just became a enarch, or oracle.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125395The end times were present since the inception of the games.
My point was that it was NOT present in Mage from the inception of the game. The dying magic/world of apathy metaplot was introduced only in Revised/3e because they wanted to bring Mage more into line with the other main game lines. Prior to that there was the Ascension War, but that was an active struggle with the goal of making the world into a better place (for each faction's definition of better).
3e declared "War's over. Everyone lost. The humans no longer believe in a better tomorrow so all magic is dying. Now play street level misery porn like the rest of the our game lines do... no more running battles between space zeppelins and Void Engineer dreadnaughts in Etherspace or journeys into the Hollow Earth for you."
QuoteSo did Mage: The Awakening and Ars Magica.
No it didn't, Awakening picked one paradigm (some weird variation on Gnosticism), dumbed that down and declared it the sole objective reality way that magic worked in the NWOD setting. Then they wrote a list of D&D style spells for what you could accomplish with each sphere and dropped massive penalties you for not using them and instead doing freeform magic as existed in Ascension.
If your preferred magic system was instead the Chakravati's union with god-forms, or the Celestial Chorus' prayers of faith, or the Akashic Brotherhood's Do, or the Son's of Ether's weird science, or the Virtual Adept's reality hacking, or the Indigenous shamanism of the Dreamspeakers or the Ecstatic's expanded awareness through altered states of consciousness, you were told... Nope, all those are wrong, they're all just misinterpretations of Ancient Atlantean magic which is basically warmed over Gnosticism that the evil false gods (i.e. the Exarchs) are hiding the truth from the world to hold onto their own personal power.
There's a reason most longtime Ascension fans I'm aware of thought Awakening was a burning sack of dog shit (take all the contempt here for 4E D&D and double it and you might come close to how the Ascension crowd in my area felt about Awakening); you could have squeezed its entire metaphysical nuances of Awakening into a single Ascension Tradition; hell, there's more metaphysical depth in a single House of Ascension's Order or Hermes than in all of Awakening put together.
20th Anniversary Edition was able to maintain the freeform magic system and rich lore of the paradigms while also making the system clearer and more functional.
Quote from: Brad;1125387For people who like Vampire but not the mechanics, what's the opinion on using GURPS? I got Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf GURPS sourcebooks for like $1 each years ago at Half Priced Books, never even cracked them open.
You could totally use GURPS. In fact you could use any system you're comfortable with. The real draw for Vampire is the metaplot/cosmology - which can be tuned up/down to your tastes. The goal should be to use the system that emphasizes the aspects you wanna dive into.
Case in point:
I've used elements of Vampire in: D&D 3e, Marvel Super Heroes, Savage Worlds, even Cyberpunk 2020. While the Storyteller system (of ANY edition) is hardly perfect, I find the vast majority of the rancor associated with Vampire has more to do with the fandom and the publishers/creators more than the game itself.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1125424Your going to be shocked, but both mages are the same thing. Don't believe me, then go read Imperial Mysteries which is a handy supplement for running archmage games in Mage: the Awakening. Basically the world are what all mages before had made from their will. So I am both right and wrong. It all depends who just became a enarch, or oracle.
To the point that the book recycled the phrase "Ascension War" to refer to the archmasters' global time traveling reality editing war, which was seemingly copied from
Nephilim's Agartha end-game. But it's
slightly more complex than how you said it. In
Ascension, paradigm was a lie and as your Arete increased you steadily abandoned your paradigm. (Ironically, but not unexpectedly, most fans ignore this.) In
Awakening, the opposite is true: reality is a lie and as your Gnosis increased you could impose your personal paradigm on it.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125427My point was that it was NOT present in Mage from the inception of the game. The dying magic/world of apathy metaplot was introduced only in Revised/3e because they wanted to bring Mage more into line with the other main game lines. Prior to that there was the Ascension War, but that was an active struggle with the goal of making the world into a better place (for each faction's definition of better).
3e declared "War's over. Everyone lost. The humans no longer believe in a better tomorrow so all magic is dying. Now play street level misery porn like the rest of the our game lines do... no more running battles between space zeppelins and Void Engineer dreadnaughts in Etherspace or journeys into the Hollow Earth for you."
This was done at the behest of the marketing department. The books weren't selling, supposedly because of the outer worlds setting, so they used the metaplot to destroy that in an attempt to make fans buy new books. That's just business.
Rather than getting butthurt over the marketing department's mandate, why not play a different game or makeup your own? In my opinion, the key problem with the game is that Earth existed at all. Seems to me that fans only played because they wanted crazy fantasy adventures but were too lazy to play a game better suited for it like
Rifts or
Shadowrun.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125427No it didn't, Awakening picked one paradigm (some weird variation on Gnosticism), dumbed that down and declared it the sole objective reality way that magic worked in the NWOD setting.
Ascension's paradigm mechanic was described in its own lore as a lie that mages outgrew as their Arete increased. Most fans seem to ignore this, but it's a cornerstone of the lore. Seems hypocritical to me to love a game so much that you guys sent the developer of 3e so many death threats he was terrified of opening his inbox for years, yet you don't even know the inner working of your favorite game's own lore.
As I said before,
Awakening took the opposite approach. It took years for the writers to pull their shit together, but eventually they included rules for paradigms in one book and added back the Ascension War on steroids. This time the paradigm wasn't discarded as your Gnosis increased, but the opposite: the goal of every archmaster was to win the Ascension War and impose their paradigm, their own personal hell, onto everyone else like the assholes that all mages really are in their heart of hearts.
The most sympathetic archmasters were the "Aswadim", because they were at least honest about being assholes who wanted to turn the universe into hell by making everybody's self-contradictory wishes come true.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125427Then they wrote a list of D&D style spells for what you could accomplish with each sphere and dropped massive penalties you for not using them and instead doing freeform magic as existed in Ascension.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the magic system worked. It was poorly edited and proofread, sure, but that wasn't the writers' intention.
The spells were provided as
examples of what mages could create using the freeform mechanic. Whether you received penalties or not depended on whether the spell was cast as an instant action or a ritual. When casting a spell as an instant action, you took a penalty based on how complex the spell was. When casting as a ritual, you instead had a success quota that you needed to achieve through an extended action. This applied to the example spells too. All magic but the most simple was intentionally designed to be very difficult to use unless you cast it as a ritual. Everybody who has actually played the game knows this.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125427If your preferred magic system was instead the Chakravati's union with god-forms, or the Celestial Chorus' prayers of faith, or the Akashic Brotherhood's Do, or the Son's of Ether's weird science, or the Virtual Adept's reality hacking, or the Indigenous shamanism of the Dreamspeakers or the Ecstatic's expanded awareness through altered states of consciousness, you were told... Nope, all those are wrong, they're all just misinterpretations of Ancient Atlantean magic which is basically warmed over Gnosticism that the evil false gods (i.e. the Exarchs) are hiding the truth from the world to hold onto their own personal power.
As I just explained, you are deeply misinformed. Reading the books would clear this up pretty quick.
Specifically,
Imperial Mysteries includes the rules for the Ascension War and
Mage Chronicler's Guide includes the rules for paradigm. Read them and educate yourself.
Did you know that after Mage 3e released, developer Jess Heinig received hundreds of death threats by email? He was terrified of opening his inbox for years. Shit like that, combined with the irrational ignorant hate of Awakening is a large part of why I despise the toxic WW fandom.
Quote from: tenbones;1125442The real draw for Vampire is the metaplot/cosmology - which can be tuned up/down to your tastes.
I don't see the appeal. Years ago I used to think it was the best setting since sliced bread, but only because it was the only setting I was familiar with. As I read Taliesin Meets the Vampires, watched Maven of the Eventide, etc, I gained a much better appreciation of vampire fiction and thus find WW's game to be sorely lacking.
The toxic fandom only cares about the convoluted metaplot/cosmology and become hugely butthurt when things don't go their way. I don't want to touch that shit with a ten-foot pole.
Quote from: tenbones;1125442I find the vast majority of the rancor associated with Vampire has more to do with the fandom and the publishers/creators more than the game itself.
While true, the cosmology is far from ideal. I once tried to recreate it using
Feed's strain mechanic, and it quickly became apparent that the clans/bloodlines are extremely superficial differences. In both
Masquerade and
Requiem, the clans/bloodlines having to follow the same pseudo-Ricean model is more detrimental than helpful. I've found that it's more interesting to dispense with that and give the bloodlines powers and limitations as appropriate for their concept rather than constantly recycling the pseudo-Ricean mold.
For example, I find the artsy and crazy vamps more interesting if they drain not the blood but the beauty and sanity from their victims, respectively. Feels far more thematic.
Take vampire cannibalism or "diablerie," for another example. This is based on Rice's
Queen of the Damned, but the implementation is far less interesting in my opinion. Aside from recycling an unrelated archaic word for witchcraft (https://www.google.com/search?q=define+diablerie) in typical annoying WW fashion, Rice depicted it as literal cannibalism. You acquire a vampire's soul by eating their heart and/or brain. They can share power by exchanging blood, but this isn't the same thing.
As such, I prefer a Ricean mechanic (http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Rules/Anne-Rice.html). A variation was used by
Everlasting in 1997.
Everlasting introduced blood-potency years before
Requiem did. All vampires have a blood-potency statistic ranging from 1 to 12. A vampire sacrifices 1 BP to create a new vampire, who starts with 1/2 the BP of their maker at no extra cost (vampires with 1 BP cannot create new vampires). A vampire may steal the BP of another vampire by drinking their blood, but this only works if the thief has lower BP: once the BP of the two is equalized, no further theft is possible. This doesn't kill the vampire being drained.
But since my preferred vampire game is
Feed, this is irrelevant since it doesn't include any rules for stealing power from other vampires. It doesn't need those rules because it's not made for munchkins. The generation/potency mechanic is munchkin fodder that deserves to die in a fire.
Quote from: Itachi;1125373Color me puzzled with the "nothing to do" too. There are a dozen rival clans whose members are vying for control inside the clan and for the Camarilla as a whole. As a political intrigue game that seems more than enough to me. And going further, I think having clear antagonists actually detracts from that setup, because it sacrifices the nuance that the clash of clans philosophies and outlooks bring in lieu of a simplistic "fight the evil guys" view.
And 5th edition is the best one for me, due to the streamlined rules and "back to the basics" setting.
5e's mechanics were shit and its setting was even worse.
Any edition of World of Darkness that upholds the metaplot and directly continues it forfeits the right to make the "back to basics" claim.
Go for V20 or New World of Darkness 1st Edition.
Fuck V5 or any of that God-Machine/Chronicles of Darkness garbage.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;11255915e's mechanics were shit and its setting was even worse.
Any edition of World of Darkness that upholds the metaplot and directly continues it forfeits the right to make the "back to basics" claim.
Go for V20 or New World of Darkness 1st Edition.
Fuck V5 or any of that God-Machine/Chronicles of Darkness garbage.
Or you could go for a different game entirely. World of Darkness, as a setting, attracts a hugely toxic fandom. There is something fundamentally wrong with its writing that brings out the worst in the tabletop community. Just look at all the people butthurt about the edition wars. A sane person would just find another game or make their own. This fandom throws temper tantrums and sends death threats.
If that's not a dealbreaker, then you should knows the games are made by and for an audience who thinks all republicans are born evil.
Nevermind that the Camarilla/Invictus are basically republicans, the Garou want to destroy all civilization, the Mages want to turn Earth into their high school clique's flavor of fascist hellscape, etc.
Hunter: The Vigil includes a group of hunters who are idle rich folks who hunt monsters for sport. That makes them less morally reprehensible than most of the vampires, werewolves, and mages. The overwhelming majority of vamps, wolves, mages, etc in either iteration of the IP are complete assholes. The Ur-Atha werewolves and Khaibit vampires are probably the least reprehensible, since their shtick is basically MIB.
WoD has a few interesting ideas here and there. IMO, most of it deserves to die in a fire.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125664Or you could go for a different game entirely. World of Darkness, as a setting, attracts a hugely toxic fandom. There is something fundamentally wrong with its writing that brings out the worst in the tabletop community. Just look at all the people butthurt about the edition wars. A sane person would just find another game or make their own. This fandom throws temper tantrums and sends death threats.
If that's not a dealbreaker, then you should knows the games are made by and for an audience who thinks all republicans are born evil.
Nevermind that the Camarilla/Invictus are basically republicans, the Garou want to destroy all civilization, the Mages want to turn Earth into their high school clique's flavor of fascist hellscape, etc.
Hunter: The Vigil includes a group of hunters who are idle rich folks who hunt monsters for sport. That makes them less morally reprehensible than most of the vampires, werewolves, and mages. The overwhelming majority of vamps, wolves, mages, etc in either iteration of the IP are complete assholes. The Ur-Atha werewolves and Khaibit vampires are probably the least reprehensible, since their shtick is basically MIB.
WoD has a few interesting ideas here and there. IMO, most of it deserves to die in a fire.
Please stop with that "you could play another game entirely" bullshit. I know you're trying to help and you mean well, but there's a better way to go about it.
Even if you didn't mean it that way, the rhetoric you're giving is just a variant of the "Some Other Game" cop-out the toxic WoD fanbase likes to spew. Besides, I'm a guy who hates the very concept of dogmatic morality and moral traditionalism. I don't give a fuck if WoD is "problematic" or "edgy". That's what I like about it.
I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.
The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.
It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.
Goths and Punks Fuck Off! Fuck The Punk Subculture!
I will not play "Some Other Game" and I will play World of Darkness in a modified form. Rule Zero exists for a reason.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125675Please stop with that "you could play another game entirely" bullshit. I know you're trying to help and you mean well, but there's a better way to go about it.
Even if you didn't mean it that way, the rhetoric you're giving is just a variant of the "Some Other Game" cop-out the toxic WoD fanbase likes to spew. Besides, I'm a guy who hates the very concept of dogmatic morality and moral traditionalism. I don't give a fuck if WoD is "problematic" or "edgy". That's what I like about it.
I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.
The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.
It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.
Goths and Punks Fuck Off! Fuck The Punk Subculture!
I will not play "Some Other Game" and I will play World of Darkness in a modified form. Rule Zero exists for a reason.
Way to misunderstand me. It isn't the fact that PCs are assholes that disgusts me. I'm disgusted that the toxic fandom and writers totally buy into it without realizing the immorality or contradictions in their own world views (e.g. supporting the Camarilla while demonizing republicans). I don't want to support the company by buying their products. That won't make them go away or solve the other problems I have. Even if all those toxic fans and writers hopped in a spaceship and left Earth forever, I still wouldn't want to play the game. I don't like it because it's a fucking straight-jacket.
I want to play other campaign settings than the one or two that WW fandom has been limited to. I want to invent my own settings where werewolves aren't hereditary, vampires don't drink blood, mages aren't fighting ascension wars, where the superpowers aren't arranged into arbitrary hierarchical ladders of filler powers, where the factions aren't ethnic stereotypes or high school cliques, yadda yadda.
I don't like the rules. I don't like the setting. I don't like the fandom.
In my opinion, the best way to deal with the toxic WW fandom is to steal their market share and audience. Make new games that have better rules and settings to displace them. Make a retroclone. Make a WoD-killer.
Nightlife, Invisible War, Nephilim, Dresden Files, The Everlasting, Nightbane, WitchCraft, Actual Fucking Monsters, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts, Liminal, Dead Inside, Lost Souls, Feed, Opening the Dark, Night Shift, etc. There is no shortage of alternative games that deserve more attention.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125675I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.
The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.
It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.
How can you make WOD "great again" according to your aesthetic? Was Vampire ever NOT gothic and punk?
Quote from: RF Victor;1125826How can you make WOD "great again" according to your aesthetic? Was Vampire ever NOT gothic and punk?
It certainly claimed to be, but that was only ever pretentious bullshit.
Vampire is about tricking people into thinking they are being radical and rebellious by buying into capitalist consumerism, then further brainwashing them into thinking your product is better than sliced bread.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125809Nightlife, Invisible War, Nephilim, Dresden Files, The Everlasting, Nightbane, WitchCraft, Actual Fucking Monsters, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts, Liminal, Dead Inside, Lost Souls, Feed, Opening the Dark, Night Shift, etc. There is no shortage of alternative games that deserve more attention.
Those games all fucking suck and are worse than WoD, and Monsterhearts is the absolute worst of the lot. That game is just pretentious hipster punk tranny storygame garbage.
Fuck that "Make your own original work" puritan redneck bullshit.
Besides, I don't give WW my money and I'm all in favor of killing the sacred cows of their fandom.
You're just trying to complain about a game you don't like.
I'm fighting a fucking war that I intend to win.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125828It certainly claimed to be, but that was only ever pretentious bullshit.
So, basically goth and punk?
Goth and Punk are the epitome of pretentiousness.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125852Those games all fucking suck and are worse than WoD
You never read any of the games I mentioned. None of them are perfect, but each one has its own innovations. I can give you a rundown if you cannot go to the effort of reading them yourself.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125852Besides, I don't give WW my money
You have to in order to read their books, barring pirating. I do not condone nor support pirating.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125852You're just trying to complain about a game you don't like.
Look in the mirror. Anyway, I'm complaining about entirely legitimate problems like rules, setting, and monopolies. You have arbitrarily dismissed every other urban fantasy game because you are indoctrinated to think WoD is the best thing since sliced bread.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125867You never read any of the games I mentioned. None of them are perfect, but each one has its own innovations. I can give you a rundown if you cannot go to the effort of reading them yourself.
You have to in order to read their books, barring pirating. I do not condone nor support pirating.
Look in the mirror. Anyway, I'm complaining about entirely legitimate problems like rules, setting, and monopolies. You have arbitrarily dismissed every other urban fantasy game because you are indoctrinated to think WoD is the best thing since sliced bread.
1. I know of Nightlife and have read Monsterhearts. I'm indifferent to the former and I outright actively detest the latter.
2. I have no objections to piracy in and of itself, especially for a company as broken and corrupt as White Wolf. Morality is bullshit.
The only reason I even obey the Eighth Commandment is because I wish to avoid incarceration. It's a simple case of cost-benefits analysis.
That being said, there's also ways to avoid giving WW money that don't involve piracy or playing "Some Other Game" garbage like Monsterhearts. You can buy old secondhand copies like I have done.
I've never involved myself in piracy, just so we're clear. I mostly buy old secondhand books from companies I don't like, but have made good products.
3. I'm not conditioned by White Wolf or Onyx Path and if they are trying to condition me, it's obvious they have failed miserably seeing as I'm actively waging war against their punk and goth fanbase and I'm willing to resort to cultural war crimes and brutal political sadism to do so.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;11258751. I know of Nightlife and have read Monsterhearts. I'm indifferent to the former and I outright actively detest the latter.
2. I have no objections to piracy in and of itself, especially for a company as broken and corrupt as White Wolf. Morality is bullshit. The only reason I even obey the Eighth Commandment is because I wish to avoid incarceration. It's a simple case of cost-benefits analysis.
That being said, there's also ways to avoid giving WW money that don't involve piracy or playing "Some Other Game" garbage like Monsterhearts. You can buy old secondhand copies like I have done.
3. I'm not conditioned by White Wolf or Onyx Path and if they are trying to condition me, it's obvious they have failed miserably seeing as I'm actively waging war against their punk and goth fanbase and I'm willing to resort to cultural war crimes and brutal political sadism to do so.
((((Trailer Voice))))
IN A WORLD...
WHERE MORALITY DOESN'T EXIST... ONE MAN WILL WAGE CULTURAL WAR AGAINST THE VAMPIRE ROLEPLAYING GAME
BY COMMITTING
BRUTAL
ACTS
OF
VIOLENT ANIME ANTI-PUNK POLITICAL SADISM
PS: SUPER-HEROES SUUUUUUUCK!!
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125875I'm not conditioned by White Wolf or Onyx Path and if they are trying to condition me, it's obvious they have failed miserably seeing as I'm actively waging war against their punk and goth fanbase and I'm willing to resort to cultural war crimes and brutal political sadism to do so.
I've looked at a few of those titles as well and agree they're garbage (and more than a few are garbage storygames at that). In fact, I feel safe in disregarding everything BoxCrayon says about anything.
As someone who hopes to sell my product someday, I do look poorly on outright theft, but buying secondhand books is something I heartily condone.
As to messing with assumptions, my long-running Mage campaign (c. 25 years now) has a very simple one; the Great Wheel has turned and the time of descent is over. The time of hopelessness is ended. The world is still crap, but the light at the end of tunnel isn't a train waiting to crush you. You can make the world better in a lasting way. You can earn your happy ending.
It's hard to hold onto the punk ethos when those who actually care about things see their efforts rewarded while the nihilistic impulses invariably fail.
Quote from: RF Victor;1125877((((Trailer Voice))))
IN A WORLD...
WHERE MORALITY DOESN'T EXIST... ONE MAN WILL WAGE CULTURAL WAR AGAINST THE VAMPIRE ROLEPLAYING GAME
BY COMMITTING
BRUTAL
ACTS
OF
VIOLENT ANIME ANTI-PUNK POLITICAL SADISM
PS: SUPER-HEROES SUUUUUUUCK!!
Sarcasm and snark are the lowest forms of wit, you pretentious pseudo-intellectual hipster faggot.
Quote from: Chris24601;1125879I've looked at a few of those titles as well and agree they're garbage (and more than a few are garbage storygames at that). In fact, I feel safe in disregarding everything BoxCrayon says about anything.
As someone who hopes to sell my product someday, I do look poorly on outright theft, but buying secondhand books is something I heartily condone.
As to messing with assumptions, my long-running Mage campaign (c. 25 years now) has a very simple one; the Great Wheel has turned and the time of descent is over. The time of hopelessness is ended. The world is still crap, but the light at the end of tunnel isn't a train waiting to crush you. You can make the world better in a lasting way. You can earn your happy ending.
It's hard to hold onto the punk ethos when those who actually care about things see their efforts rewarded while the nihilistic impulses invariably fail.
This guy gets it
This feels like the dumbest conflict ever:
Should I play the product you hate to spite the people that made it or should you dump the product you hate to stop support for the people that made it.
This isn't punk, sadist, goth or whatever is cool or fake now. This shit be retarded. If there is one thing dumber then arguing over the quality of an RPG its arguing about arguing over the quality of an RPG.
Edit: Also doc sammy your one of the most tryhard people I have witnessed in a long while.
Notin personel kid. But in this battle of the dumbos you are doing the dumber option even without your own suspect higharchy.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1125881This feels like the dumbest conflict ever:
Should I play the product you hate to spite the people that made it or should you dump the product you hate to stop support for the people that made it.
This isn't punk, sadist, goth or whatever is cool or fake now. This shit be retarded. If there is one thing dumber then arguing over the quality of an RPG its arguing about arguing over the quality of an RPG.
Edit: Also doc sammy your one of the most tryhard people I have witnessed in a long while.
Notin personel kid. But in this battle of the dumbos you are doing the dumber option even without your own suspect higharchy.
I don't give a fuck what some pretentious anti-weeb retarded pseudo-intellectual thinks of anything.
There's a reason why I adopted this "tryhard" ethos and persona...
You don't win a war by acting like some snooty Joss Whedon character who's "above it all" because you fell for the edge, you pathetic retard.
And the war isn't necessarily against White Wolf, Onyx Path, the punks, or the goths. That is but one minor front and a lot of this is obfuscation, illusions of insanity, and deception on all sides.
There's a war within a war going on, one with far greater stakes than some dumb RPG.
This site is being used as a numbers station, and I'm worried we may be compromised.
We're at the tip of the iceberg and I'm scared.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;11258751. I know of Nightlife and have read Monsterhearts. I'm indifferent to the former and I outright actively detest the latter.
You previously said that you thought all the games were crap and inferior to WoD. Now you admit that you only read two, and you are indifferent to one. That's not helpful.
Would you like to read the other games yourself, or would you like me to give you some pointers?
Quote from: Chris24601;1125879I've looked at a few of those titles as well and agree they're garbage
Care to elaborate?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125887You previously said that you thought all the games were crap and inferior to WoD. Now you admit that you only read two, and you are indifferent to one. That's not helpful.
Would you like to read the other games yourself, or would you like me to give you some pointers?
Care to elaborate?
You still think this is just about finding an alternative to World of Darkness, don't you?
On the gaming side of things, I'm content with running a Rule Zero'd World of Darkness game because I don't view Onyx Path/White Wolf as this Illuminati-esque gaming conspiracy.
They were a company that was good in the 90's, has been terrible for the longest time since then, and have a shitty fanbase. World of Darkness isn't much different than Sonic on that end.
But on the culture side of things, World of Darkness and this whole decade-long "vendetta" against White Wolf and Onyx Path is a front and is merely part of a long-term multi-year strategy in something completely unrelated to it and is part of something far greater than I or anyone else here can possibly know the full extent of...
I'm just a common nobody in all this. But I can assure you that I am on Pundit's side, and Pundit himself is on the side of goodness and justice, and he is truly valued.
Just so we are clear, I do not claim to speak for Pundit.
Only Pundit speaks for Pundit.It's my duty to help him, even if it means giving up acting like an edgy maniac online.
But I can cease doing so and I will be doing just that very soon. There has been a change in operations. I need to correct my course.
Trust me in this. The edgy insanity will end permanently, I must keep to the rules of the site.
No more edge. No more madness.
I'm bowing out of this thread.
This thread has entered retardo territory.
OP, I suggest you take your question to more rational and less passionate waters. I recommend the RPGPub or RPGnet myself.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125884I don't give a fuck what some pretentious anti-weeb retarded pseudo-intellectual thinks of anything.
I highly doubt it. You project a curated persona that you find it very important for others to know about the same way a SJW finds important that other people know their a demi-queer panafrican sexual.
Its true that there is a culture war going on, Im just saying your actions within it are impotent at best and counterproductory at worst.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1125935I highly doubt it. You project a curated persona that you find it very important for others to know about the same way a SJW finds important that other people know their a demi-queer panafrican sexual.
Its true that there is a culture war going on, Im just saying your actions within it are impotent at best and counterproductory at worst.
I know I would bow out and I will, but I do believe this particular thing needs to be addressed.
Trust me, there's a lot more going on with me and my behaviors than you think. Been very stressed out.
These actions may seem impotent and counter-productive, but that's the idea. Some of my more extreme posts and statements, especially in the past few months, are intentional false flags or meaningless angry venting and blustering.
And before you give the canned "Lol I was pretending to be retarded" meme response, it's not like that. I'm not trying to get attention in that sense.
Instead, I'm trying to deceive others into thinking I'm impotent, useless, and counterproductive and throw them off while also blowing off some steam. Mostly the latter.
I know I shouldn't discuss this so openly, but there's now going to be a change in my operations and tactics and I'll leave it at that for now.
I've become scared, angry, and paranoid because of the ongoing real-life pandemic, to be quite honest. I best just drop this, calm down, and let shit go.
To put things in a more sane and concise way, I've been undergoing a breakdown because I'm scared to death of this corona virus, especially since my mom is a nurse who works for the state and is therefore more likely to get exposed to it.
I've been going really off the deep end and delving into this sadistic edgelord persona partly as a way to vent and partly as a way to hide my fears and paranoia.
Pathetic, I know. But at least these fears are grounded in reality.
It is kind of a little late to be worried about the Corona Virus when people should have been truly worried about it a month ago. I have family members losing their minds like Doc Sammy who had made fun of me thinking I was making too much it.
In North america as a whole we seem to have this strange aversion to wanting to accept anything truly negative and evil. Whether it's terroism or a pandemic it seems that everyone is immune or can't understand why it is happening. "that only happens in 3rd world countries" and continue to still go out to public places and refuse to do any basic handwashing or taking care of themselves. It's only when one can no longer hide from it that suddenly I was the smart one and they all were the stupid ones. It is only when it affects them personally that it becomes something to be feared and acknowledged.
Quote from: sureshot;1125955In North america as a whole we seem to have this strange aversion to wanting to accept anything truly negative and evil. Whether it's terroism or a pandemic it seems that everyone is immune or can't understand why it is happening. "that only happens in 3rd world countries" and continue to still go out to public places and refuse to do any basic handwashing or taking care of themselves. It's only when one can no longer hide from it that suddenly I was the smart one and they all were the stupid ones. It is only when it affects them personally that it becomes something to be feared and acknowledged.
It's more media overexposure. As a guy whos traveled around allot, American journalists are the worst.
They say the world is ending on every day ending with a y.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1125935I highly doubt it. You project a curated persona that you find it very important for others to know about the same way a SJW finds important that other people know their a demi-queer panafrican sexual.
Its true that there is a culture war going on, Im just saying your actions within it are impotent at best and counterproductory at worst.
Are we still talking about the game?
The only culture war I know of is that the WoD books now push anti-republican rhetoric and disallows alphabet people as villains.
I find it offensive that alphabet people aren't allowed to be villains. That denies them agency and by extension their personhood.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125966Are we still talking about the game?
No, and I don't care to pursue Doc Sammys stuff any further. I hope he gets better if he's genuine and I hope he gets fragged if he's not. Making personas to cope is a bad strategy and I have never seen it work.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125966I find it offensive that alphabet people aren't allowed to be villains. That denies them agency and by extension their personhood.
SJWs are collectivists and generally disdain personhood and individualism. SJWs also don't care about offending people. They just re-structured language so that the word for 'Blasphemy' and the word for 'Offense' is the same.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1125981...
SJWs are collectivists and generally disdain personhood and individualism. SJWs also don't care about offending people. They just re-structured language so that the word for 'Blasphemy' and the word for 'Offense' is the same.
This is the real truth.
The SJW's, and leftists in general, are not now, nor have they ever been, advocates for "free speech".
They just want to be the ones writing/in control of the Blasphemy laws.
Quote from: Jaeger;1126012This is the real truth.
The SJW's, and leftists in general, are not now, nor have they ever been, advocates for "free speech".
They just want to be the ones writing/in control of the Blasphemy laws.
In my opinion, there are always blasphemy laws (this isn't necessarily bad in it by itself) and there is always a political class that is in bad taste to target for power reasons. There are always at least some bad people in positions of power.
The SJW principle is deluding themselves that they bypass universal injustices with language control and heavy doses of cognitive dissonance.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126029In my opinion, there are always blasphemy laws (this isn't necessarily bad in it by itself)
Blasphemy laws are inherently bad no matter who they're targeted towards, be they critics of Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Social Justice, people who hate Marvel, or any other ideology.
Blasphemy laws are just used to curb any idea or opinion seen as unpopular or problematic by the ruling powers that be.
But unfortunately, they do exist and it's a sad part of reality
Like you said, there will always be some kind of ruling class and there will always be at least a few scumbags in that ruling group.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1126034Blasphemy laws are inherently bad no matter who they're targeted towards.
The nature of sacred elements is inherent to all societies. Those elements tie that society together and permit a level of basic function that becomes harder and harder to maintain as a default when a society surpasses 150 cavemen or so. Blasphemy laws are illogical but so are human beings and so is existence in general.
It's like hating farts. They smell bad and it would sound like getting rid of them would be a good idea. But your stomach is just going to explode instead. I don't hate humans because they fart. And I don't see farting as something I lament humans do.
I feel like much of today's problems (or even the problems of the last 100 years or so) is how we try to deny a certain degree of human nature. Denying it just leaves us more vulnerable to it. Societies theoretically all about getting rid of blasphemy laws and having the most future-thinking attitudes end up murdering people by the millions and having blasphemy laws that make the Spanish inquisition sound like a pillow fight.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126035The nature of sacred elements is inherent to all societies. Those elements tie that society together and permit a level of basic function that becomes harder and harder to maintain as a default when a society surpasses 150 cavemen or so. Blasphemy laws are illogical but so are human beings and so is existence in general.
It's like hating farts. They smell bad and it would sound like getting rid of them would be a good idea. But your stomach is just going to explode instead. I don't hate humans because they fart. And I don't see farting as something I lament humans do.
I feel like much of today's problems (or even the problems of the last 100 years or so) is how we try to deny a certain degree of human nature. Denying it just leaves us more vulnerable to it. Societies theoretically all about getting rid of blasphemy laws and having the most future-thinking attitudes end up murdering people by the millions and having blasphemy laws that make the Spanish inquisition sound like a pillow fight.
True.
Don't get me wrong, there will always be sacred cows in every society and it's a part of reality that is unavoidable and we have to accept will always be around.
Like, I don't think they are a good thing but I accept them as inevitable in some form or another. I should've been a bit more clear on that
I don't like the idea of blasphemy laws, but they do exist in one form or another and while I personally hate these things, the world doesn't give a fuck about what I love or hate.
Sometimes we just have to roll with the punches. The world is random at times, and all you can do is try to do your best to survive within it.
Back to WOD. All the games have serious problems but I have good times with a good GM. We play Promethean Chronicles. Most of the wankey stuff has been minimized for fun road trip adventure stuff. While its power set can be annoying if played right its a fun and unique experience. But the books editing is so goddam bad.
Overall I can't decide which edition I prefer. NWOD has less world wank, but is just blander overall. But tighter mechanics in places meant for more crossover. COD is NWOD with some bads and some goods. Its XP gains faster but also feels annoying at times. OWOD has more charm but its mechanics are the most directly jank and its worldwank is super high.
If I didn't have a good gaming group that where drawn to this IP by the existence of the videogame I would have never had interest in this game and I will likely never run it myself.
As for 5e....That feels like developmental incest. 20th Anniversary versions where kinda fantastic capstones. So it makes sense that 5e has only MAXWANK to focus on.
I think we all agree that World of Darkness games suck ass when it comes to editing. I recently comb over Mage the Awakening (CoD version) and my Lord that game needs a editor. The info is scattered everywhere and shit is a mess.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1126046I think we all agree that World of Darkness games suck ass when it comes to editing. I recently comb over Mage the Awakening (CoD version) and my Lord that game needs a editor. The info is scattered everywhere and shit is a mess.
I can't say anything bad about syntactic magic systems in theory because in theory they're pretty neat. Where MtA screws up is the practices. Ars Magica was pretty well defined in its 5 techniques. MtA has 13, plus another 5 for archmasters. That's not inherently bad, but the practices aren't well defined and their names aren't indicative like the AM techniques.
A lot of those practices are repeats of lesser practices which is redundant. Not only that, but basic information is scattered too. Took me a while to figure out what yantras are and my friend who has less patience than me was slowly losing his mind in finding what praxis is.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1126189A lot of those practices are repeats of lesser practices which is redundant.
Not repeats, exactly. What WW was trying to do was spread out the capabilities of the 5 techniques across the 13 practices, because they're using the "realm" form of syntactic magic instead of the "noun-verb" form used by Ars Magica. See this post for a brief overview of the game design POV for syntactic magic (with GURPS as the example): http://pseudoboo.blogspot.com/2016/02/mechanics-syntactic-magic.html
What WW should have done was present the 5 techniques as the baseline first and then break them down into the 13 practices. Or even explain how syntactic magic systems are supposed to work so that GMs can internalize and apply that logic.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1126189Not only that, but basic information is scattered too. Took me a while to figure out what yantras are and my friend who has less patience than me was slowly losing his mind in finding what praxis is.
I haven't tried reading the 2nd editions in years so I have no clue what a yantra or a praxis is.
EDIT: Ok, I googled it. If I understand correctly, then yantra is ritual tools or M20's paradigm and praxis is a rote or well-practiced effect that is easier to cast.
How difficult is it to just say that they're mechanics that make casting easier? Just put the crunch first, and save the fluff for its own chapter. Jeeze!
Anyway, I like the basic concept of paradigm/yantras/magical traditions/whatever as a way to customize your characters. The same basic logic is why I praise the settings of Lost and Vigil.
What I don't like is global metaplots, monolithic factions, and one true myths.
Werewolves are a particularly hardhit example, since WW only offers the choice of eco-terrorists or magical vice cops.
You can't play WitchCraft's ferals or the Knights of St. Christopher from Netflix's The Order.