Also here are some covers from the 2E novel line to contrast with the new one

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:18:12 PMI was just watching these again the other night. The Vampire Lovers is what prompted me to read Le Fanu in higschool 

I did much the same. After watching Hammer's vision of beautiful vampires pushing the boundary of what '70s censors would allow, the story itself was a huge disappointment.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:42:04 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Obviously you are the GM so it is up to you. But that kind of violent crusading is generally not the sort of top the thing Ravenloft responds well to. This chart came later with DoD (I think it is basically similar to the one they introduced in the red box) but it gives you an idea of how PCs have to be careful in Ravenloft even with how they approach violence against monster. Keep in mind that murder has a very specific definition in the rules which I will put in a separate post. The black box is a little more vague and just says committing evil acts warrants a powers check and the example it gives clarifies where the line is (see attached)

Again, how you want to run Ravenloft is totally up to you. I am not saying you are wrong, but if you enforce the powers check system as intended, I think it makes that kind of overly cautious party a lot more susceptible to the dark powers if they are attacking anything that doesn't announce its own righteousness and the setting will generally play a little more soundly   

This is how the rules define murder (just so it is clear it isn't a blanket prohibition against killing monsters or something)

Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2024, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:18:12 PMI was just watching these again the other night. The Vampire Lovers is what prompted me to read Le Fanu in higschool 

I did much the same. After watching Hammer's vision of beautiful vampires pushing the boundary of what '70s censors would allow, the story itself was a huge disappointment.

Lol. It has been a while since I read it but I remember feeling like it pushed the boundaries of Victorian sensibilities on the subject (though I am sure there is victorian erotic that was much more shocking) 

Hipster Narcissist captures the art cover's vibe best, trying too hard to be special.

Which is exceedingly reminiscent of Magic the Gathering's more modern art focus on Planeswalkers being the metaplot drama. Mishra, Urza, Ashnod, etc. you rarely to never saw portrait until their comics *much* later. All the Planeswalker avatars now of the past 10 years, whose names outside Nichol Bolas (eye roll on him too) I cannot recall nor care, are all this Strutting Smarmy Douchenozzle ensemble portrait.

I just can't. Any cool factor in MtG art has been gone for far too long and now it looks like its Planeswalker ensemble portraiture was Pre-Fab #5 copy-pasta-ed for Ravenloft. Such low effort, tone deafness, not even trying to accomodate the characters to the setting -- the composition choice is just trash. It's all about the characters munching scenery, like wanna-be thespians before graduation. Yuck.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 04:44:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:42:04 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Obviously you are the GM so it is up to you. But that kind of violent crusading is generally not the sort of top the thing Ravenloft responds well to. This chart came later with DoD (I think it is basically similar to the one they introduced in the red box) but it gives you an idea of how PCs have to be careful in Ravenloft even with how they approach violence against monster. Keep in mind that murder has a very specific definition in the rules which I will put in a separate post. The black box is a little more vague and just says committing evil acts warrants a powers check and the example it gives clarifies where the line is (see attached)

Again, how you want to run Ravenloft is totally up to you. I am not saying you are wrong, but if you enforce the powers check system as intended, I think it makes that kind of overly cautious party a lot more susceptible to the dark powers if they are attacking anything that doesn't announce its own righteousness and the setting will generally play a little more soundly 

Greetings!

Right, right, BedrockBrendan. I don't remember all of the precise details about Ravenloft. That group I played with was a long time ago. I never did get much into Ravenloft, as I mentioned earlier, the genre elements clash pretty hard between a Dark Ages Sword & Sorcery and Gothic Horror/Victorian Age. As S'mon said, it's a terrible fit. *Laughing*

I remember it being a terrible fit, so I wasn't much of a fan of Ravenloft, despite having a great enthusiasm for various cool elements of the Ravenloft campaign as a whole.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And yes, Bedrockbrendan, I agree with you on Ravenloft here. It's a place where the Dark Lords are in perpetual purgatory waiting for them to learn to behave differently. They are chastised repeatedly by the Dark Powers by having new visitors come visit the 'broken record' of their ethereal dream and beat them, over and over again. Or, if those chosen to beat them become tempted with the dark domains greater power watch the new batch of heroes become chastised as well in devolution, sinking ever deeper as a part of the dark, deep ethereal.

Basically, fall into a nightmare and break free with good behavior OR behave as a nightmare within the nightmare, be 'rewarded' in becoming your own new nightmare. Beat the nightmare or be the nightmare. The Dark Powers do so love a ruthless approach because ruthlessness births new domains of everlasting chastisement... Remember a lot of the Dark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ga792J3bkAA_Hhd?format=jpg

I thought you guys were joking about the cover...wtf is this? Not only are they all monstrosities but they're all fucking smiling, too. Are you smiling!?!? There's no smiling in Gothic Horror!!!

Whatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

It is fitting in with the general art trend in 5.5, at least the PHB. Many of the characters in there are smiling as well. I suppose it shows the game is fun? Frowning is problematic? Not smiling isn't a mood? There's some reason I'm not going to get probably, but it does seem to be the new art direction.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 05:57:28 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Sounds like Silent Hill in reverse.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMAnd yes, Bedrockbrendan, I agree with you on Ravenloft here. It's a place where the Dark Lords are in perpetual purgatory waiting for them to learn to behave differently. They are chastised repeatedly by the Dark Powers by having new visitors come visit the 'broken record' of their ethereal dream and beat them, over and over again. Or, if those chosen to beat them become tempted with the dark domains greater power watch the new batch of heroes become chastised as well in devolution, sinking ever deeper as a part of the dark, deep ethereal.

Basically, fall into a nightmare and break free with good behavior OR behave as a nightmare within the nightmare, be 'rewarded' in becoming your own new nightmare. Beat the nightmare or be the nightmare. The Dark Powers do so love a ruthless approach because ruthlessness births new domains of everlasting chastisement... Remember a lot of the Dark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend, my Marine buddies were a rough group. They wanted to BE THE NIGHTMARE. Walk in rivers of blood, throwing a cigarette to the lake of gasoline all around. Chomping teeth, and face the Devil head on, guns blazing. Bring down the thunder, and fucking napalm everything.

The group's characters were accustomed to traveling and fighting in a harsh, brutal Sword & Sorcery, Dark Ages kind of world. Treachery was common. Evil plots, scheming, smarmy nobles, Farm girls that were witches that would sacrifice you under the moonlight to demons. Stuffed animals that would look cute and harmless--and then ambush you by attacking with a huge mouth full of razor-sharp teeth. Witches, evil Chaos Warriors riding everywhere, huge armies laying waste to entire cities. Insanity everywhere. Plagues leaving the countryside choked with rotting corpses, with huge clouds of evil ravens and vultures flying overhead.

These men were adrenaline junkies, and lived on constant action and danger. Anything that was slower-paced, they would likely consider hopelessly boring. So, the Sword & Sorcery milieu suited their temperaments well. Ravenloft was...too slow-paced and...It's hard to explain it. They were very suspicious of anyone and everyone, and the slightest perceived *threat* was dealt with a battle-axe or a fireball. No hesitation, no forgiveness, no mercy. I think they felt constantly frustrated while traveling in Ravenloft. The whole suspicious people, cloaked, shadowy people, people of uncertain loyalty, dangers lurking in the shadows, or in children's toy dolls that came to life and attacked them, draining levels from them. Old men, scheming against them. Beautiful women *seeming* to be sexy and sweet--but secretly plotting to sacrifice them in an orgy of blood and death. In a yardway by a barn, talking ravens attacked and pecked out the eyes from a favoured henchmen, and laughed at them as they flew away. The dark, shadowy trees in the woods? The group assumed the trees were alive and evil, and whispering to demons to attack them at night when they camped. That never actually happened--but the players believed that such dangers were all around them. Even the most innocuous, benign-looking thing, was something to look at hard.

The group managed to make a few friends in Ravenloft, and they were interested in protecting truly innocent, *Good* villagers--as long as they were convinced that they were truly *good* and righteous. The group would practically make up their own plot-lines as we played, which was always amusing. They would imagine plots, schemes, and how they could be ambushed and betrayed by the milkmaid, or how the village Blacksmith could betray them somehow. Or maybe the Blacksmith was actually a decent fellow--but he was under a wicked spell from his wife, who was a member of a local witch coven. That young, plump village girl dancing with Rogg last night? Yeah, that's right. She's probably a Succubus, just waiting for the right moment to strike Rogg. Of course, several others are talking about this girl that Rogg danced with, away from Rogg. But when Rogg gets wind of their concerns and suspicions, Rogg gets that look in his eyes. *Laughing*

Different "tropes" and dynamics in different campaign milieu's can be very different from Gothic Horror/Ravenloft. That's a struggle I had with Ravenloft, and like S'mon mentioned, it is a terrible fit with his own Wilderlands milieu. The players operate with very different expectations, assumptions, and routines. Entirely different world-views that clashed violently and discordantly with the rather civilized, orderly, pleasant Victorian Age like such is embraced in Ravenloft.

Ahh, well. There are elements that I love about Ravenloft, for sure, but it was difficult to really work well with groups from my Thandor world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 01:08:36 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 05:57:28 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Sounds like Silent Hill in reverse.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Greetings!

Hey there ForgottenF! I agree. I'm skeptical that D&D is really a suitable rule-set to run a Gothic Horror game. Then again, I bounce back to the idea that if you are initially establishing your milieu as a Victorian Age, 19th Century milieu, then Ravenloft would fit right in like a glove. If your milieu *isn't* that environment though, yeah. Likely to be trainloads of problems and friction.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK