Greetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ravenloft takes inspiration from gothic romances and classic horror so I think it is find to have things like feminine elements to it. A lot of gothic horror is about very atmospheric, dreamy, sensual and subtle horror, and some of its most well known writers were women. I just think this looks too modern, too Josh Whedon or something. The attitude is all wrong

If everyone looks like a circus freak, then how does anyone know what monsters look like? Dungeoncrawling was founded on the idea that you can identify whether something is an evil monster because it looks ugly, so you don't have to stop and ask or wait to be attacked. This is occasionally subverted with the secret societies of good drow and werewolf elves, but it generally holds true the overwhelming majority of the time. When you remove that, it makes the premise look all the more arbitrary. How do the circus freak PCs know what other circus freaks are okay to slaughter without remorse and which must be treated as people without checking in advance? If WotC wants to turn D&D into Star Frontiers, then go ahead, but go the whole way rather than half-assing it.

For reference, here are some choice passages from the 2e Ravenloft setting book.





Interesting stuff as regards what the point of the setting is supposed to be, at least in the minds of TSR at the time. It's particularly quaint to see the passage about how AD&D "when properly played" is a game about good vs. evil. I'm not sure that was ever true in practice, but it certainly isn't these days.

I include the bit about "sensuality and seduction" because that's the part of gothic horror I most seriously doubt WOTC is ever going to execute on. Even separate from any wokeness or ideological agenda, one of the clearest markers of corporate art is that it is bloodless, passionless and sterile.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 08:46:12 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AMWhile this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

   This is one of the philosophical problems with Ravenloft, agreed, although WotC has made it worse by adding the "most people are soulless". These days, I tend to favor it as 'Twilight Zone' spots in a regular world. You can square the circle by leaning into the "Evil cannot make, it can only mock" approach of having the domains be shadowy copies of locations in the real world.

Good ideas, thanks.

I think the original Ravenloft & Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill adventures did get the feel much more right. The situation is far more ambiguous; R2 seems to be set in a kind of version of early 19th century England. It's much closer to the Twilight Zone than later "You are in Realm of Darklord X" type of stuff. The Gothic sensibility in R2 especially is quite strong - just as (IMO) the parts of Dracula set in Whitby are far stronger than the Transylvania stuff.

Re the pic, I just love Karen from HR, over on the left.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ga792J3bkAA_Hhd?format=jpg

I thought you guys were joking about the cover...wtf is this? Not only are they all monstrosities but they're all fucking smiling, too. Are you smiling!?!? There's no smiling in Gothic Horror!!!

Whatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 11:34:09 AMRe the pic, I just love Karen from HR, over on the left.

Holy fuck, you're not kidding!

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMWhatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Me too. It should have stayed that way. I never understood the whole Strahd and demi-plane of Shadow thing and its popularity.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 30, 2024, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

Greetings!

Yeah, Jeff! I remember Rod Sterling very well, with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery! I loved those programs!

And yes, Gothic Horror traditions are very dark, romantic, sensual, and all that. Women love it. That's all fine, of course, though honestly, Gothic Horror is firmly rooted within a 19th Century Victorian Age. So many assumptions, standards, "Tropes" and so on are absolutely anchored within a Victorian Age framework and sensibility.

The problem I have usually faced with this set-up is that my campaign world is far away from anything like the Victorian Age and the 19th Century. It is more like the 6th Century to the 12th Century, but with dragons, monsters everywhere, huge empires and armies marching. Furthermore, when you have player characters that have been fighting in dark dungeons, slaughtering hordes of savage monsters, dueling enemies on a blood-soaked and fire-scorched battlefield for 5, 6 or 8 levels, suddenly dropping them into a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment...doesn't really work that well. The dissonance, the cross-angled goals and assumptions, the entire mental framework, just isn't really meshing well. Even when I, for example, am more than capable of threading that needle and making various adjustments, many players simply are not prepared or interested in doing so.

And, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: blackstone on October 30, 2024, 12:10:04 PM

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMWhatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Me too. It should have stayed that way. I never understood the whole Strahd and demi-plane of Shadow thing and its popularity.

Greetings!

Yeah, Blackstone, I sympathize. Ravenloft is of course entirely based upon Gothic Horror rooted entirely within a Victorian Age, 19th Century framework, with some Hammer film frosting thrown into the mix. If you start your campaign and game milieu with such a framework, it can work just fine. If your campaign is set in a different kind of genre or milieu, well, there are sure to be enormous problems, and much of them are simply incompatible. Ravenloft, while popular for many, is definitely not going to be appealing to others for a variety of reasons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For once I agree with SHARK 100%. Almost the entirety of WotC D&D products since after Xanathars has been hot woke garbage.

Mearls should have never been moved from TT D&D.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 30, 2024, 10:50:38 AMFor reference, here are some choice passages from the 2e Ravenloft setting book.





Interesting stuff as regards what the point of the setting is supposed to be, at least in the minds of TSR at the time. It's particularly quaint to see the passage about how AD&D "when properly played" is a game about good vs. evil. I'm not sure that was ever true in practice, but it certainly isn't these days.

I include the bit about "sensuality and seduction" because that's the part of gothic horror I most seriously doubt WOTC is ever going to execute on. Even separate from any wokeness or ideological agenda, one of the clearest markers of corporate art is that it is bloodless, passionless and sterile.

Those are very good examples

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 12:31:52 PMAnd, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Yeah, I have the same difficulty. I mostly run Wilderlands which is VERY VERY far from Victorian Gothic tropes, and have never run Ravenloft although I'd like to run it, & especially Ravenloft 2. Ironically, "playing" with the Seaart.ai AI chatbot recently, it frequently generates quasi-Victorian damsel PCs adventuring in my Wilderlands sword & sorcery setting, which is incongruous but kind of fun. It doesn't do badly as a player either, there's a lot of "Amelia's bosom heaved as she.. (absolutely anything)" but its choices are at least as good as the average player. It sometimes misses clues, but it's good at running away when outmatched, and not thinking it needs to kill everything to win.