Quote from: tenbones on March 06, 2024, 12:34:15 AM
MEGS is superb.

MSH does Marvel well, MEGS does DC well. I guess that's why I don't like "generic" comicbook RPGs (or generic RPGs, in general) because a game should be designed to fit the source material. Contrast with Modiphius crap which twists the source material to fit their system. WEG Star Wars is the prime example of how to make a system to fit the source. It's the perfect game in all ways.

Anyway, the Aunt May problem...IN GENRE, it makes sense. It really does. I mean fucking Thanos had a helicopter that got shot down and Squirrel Girl curbstomped Doctor Doom and other superheavies (although I realize the last one is just because SG is the most powerful being in the Marvel Universe but whatever). So, if Aunt May somehow manages to knock the shit out of Thor with her purse in one panel, no one bats an eye. It's just the sort of illogical bullshit that happens in comics. Realistically, Spider-Man could literally solo 99% of the Marvel universe, but he doesn't for whatever reason. Hulk could just throw NYC into the sun if he got pissed off enough, but he doesn't. Magneto might get annoyed and move the Earth off its axis but he doesn't. Comics don't make a lot of sense sometimes. I DO understand why a game needs to be consistent, but MSH lets you play in the comic world, and the comic world has very stupid and inconsistent crap. That said, if your point is PCs shouldn't be able to just roll really well and have streetclothes Harry Osborn knockout Peter Parker during a lunchroom spat, okay. But if it happened in the comics, would you be surprised?

Sure, but it's still a game, not an attempt to literally emulate the silliest aspects of another medium.

And in MSH it could still happen even with the Aunt May Rule - that literally is what Karma is for, and in the advent of the rule, still works. The problem with the Aunt May rule is not that it puts invalids in their proper narrative place, it's that the rules of the System are at odds with their own task-resolution system RAW. You can make any challenge a Feat with a Rank, you even have auto-success rules (+3CS or higher is auto-success). The problem is that they are not unified in their use.

The Aunt May Rule unifies *all* of them, and makes the entire system better and more cohesive (in an already very cohesive system). I've said this for many years, MSH tweaked correctly could be an extremely formidable universal game system. I've run it for fantasy, sci-fi, horror - within the context of my Supers campaigns and it gobbles it down without missing a beat.

This Heroic system goes a long way to proving it. Just needs to get people to give it a whirl.

Speaking of which - the 2.2 Beta rules dropped today. I'm going over them and I've decided I'll make some comments about the differences between MSH and Heroic.

While I admire the ethos I still can't get behind this system. Everything it does could be more coherently achieved by using a log table like MEGS and TORG. And those systems could be further refined by removing some of the steps used to generate the final results. I do like how it's method rather than effect based. In other words what you're trying to achieve is independent from how you're trying to achieve it, which opens things up to more creative, and dare I say heroic, solutions.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 11, 2024, 02:08:03 AM
While I admire the ethos I still can't get behind this system. Everything it does could be more coherently achieved by using a log table like MEGS and TORG. And those systems could be further refined by removing some of the steps used to generate the final results. I do like how it's method rather than effect based. In other words what you're trying to achieve is independent from how you're trying to achieve it, which opens things up to more creative, and dare I say heroic, solutions.

I would say for those used to more traditional task resolution mechanics that MSH can be very confusing. But that's more down to both MSH and Heroic rulebooks being very poor at actually explaining what is a very simple and intuitive form of task resolution. It's not all that convoluted. You have a rank in a stat or skill. Roll on the relevant column on the universal table. In Heroic you shift the column you roll on based on the rank of an opposing character's relevent stat. You can easily compare someone's Remarkable strength versus another's Amazing strength to see who has a better chance of  succeding in a test. Which is something other RPGs struggle with.

I do think Heroic could use a syntax checker who can specificallt point out when certain passages are too convoluted. A quick one or two sentence task resolution explanation in simple language would do wonders. Especially for people who aren't familiar with MSH.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AM
I would say for those used to more traditional task resolution mechanics that MSH can be very confusing. But that's more down to both MSH and Heroic rulebooks being very poor at actually explaining what is a very simple and intuitive form of task resolution. It's not all that convoluted.

It's an intuitive resolution system obscured by a number of unnecessary elements such as using words to describe the magnitudes and multiple colors in an odd order. And up until now I didn't see what it was actually trying to do.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AMYou have a rank in a stat or skill. Roll on the relevant column on the universal table. In Heroic you shift the column you roll on based on the rank of an opposing character's relevent stat. You can easily compare someone's Remarkable strength versus another's Amazing strength to see who has a better chance of  succeding in a test. Which is something other RPGs struggle with.

Which is exactly what log tables and metric conversions allow for.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AMI do think Heroic could use a syntax checker who can specificallt point out when certain passages are too convoluted. A quick one or two sentence task resolution explanation in simple language would do wonders. Especially for people who aren't familiar with MSH.

I think they'll get there, but then again I'm not sure if this is even intended for folks who aren't familiar with MSH.

Completely agree with both of you.

I am about as deep as one can possibly get into MSH (less so with MEGS but I'm very familiar with it) and reading Heroic's beta rules is not something I'd recommend for the uninitiated. The explanations are understandable to me only because of my experience with MSH. Otherwise they come off... odd and overly verbose.

MEGS *feels* closer to traditional mechanics (read: d20) because its task resolution requires a similar number of calculations - You hit/do action, consult chart, THEN you compare and consult another chart for the effect. Which is equal to the Roll to Hit, Roll to Damage, reset for results. This is *not* to say that MEGS is functionally doing anything other than MSH does - in fact imo, it did it better because it addresses degrees of success, and it does relative comparison to extrapolate results. Where MEGS drops the ball vs. MSH (a TOTALLY MINOR QUIBBLE to me) is they force you to consult a second table for the results. MSH uses their direct stats for values, MEGS does too, BUT they modulate those values based on the Results table which isn't as intuitive.

The results of MEGS in play, once you get over this final calculation hump, which compared to pretty much all other TTRPG's today is *nothing* - is a spectacularly good system, but it's *slightly* more complex (only by a hair) than MSH. Blood of Heroes showed it could easily scratch the DC Heroes material off and it would run perfectly great in other genres with a little development. In fact... I'm a little shocked no one has taken another crack at it.

I also think the presentation of MEGS *today* loses to MSH simply because... and it's sad to say... because it's black and white (with a dash of red). Looking at that chart is intimidating to modern gamers. Old school gamers devour that stuff - we're used to Gary's tables in the DMG/PHB 1e. Or played Rolemaster... nothing intimidates us. But something about looking a MSH's Universal Table seems to be more pleasing for newcomers. That's my anecdotal personal experience from introducing them to Supers play, and pitching both MEGS and MSH. *Every* single time, all these groups chose MSH based on two things: 1) MSH uses one table for everything 2) It looked more fun (colors! WHEE!). MEGS can and does everything that MSH does, it just does it with slightly more granularity and it has less fan-support by comparison. That's my primary issue - MSH has soooo much material out there from other sources now. MEGS has some, but it's not even close in comparison.

Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.


As for Heroic beta 2.2 - I did find some completely missing paragraphs, spelling errors, and new sub-systems that to me are more convoluted in the explanation than the actual rules themselves. I'm doing my passthrough now.

Hey folks!

I just wanted to stop in and say hi, as I see quite a lively discussion going on here and that makes me happy.

I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.

As for the typos, and stuff, we are working on that, hence the beta qualification of the available docs. We would love to hear from you all about what you are finding that isn't clear, needs better explanation, or maybe even less.

Remember the Beta is a combination of 4 different writers, and sometimes that gets a bit confusing. Between v2.1 and 2.2 I literally found rules in the document that had been replaced and were no longer valid sitting there... (I'm looking at you Popularity!).

One of my big thistles is the Drive Section. The original writer was tasked with combining Profiles from ASH with the Callings that we lifted from MSHAG, and instead just gave me EVERY Profile... so that's be reworked, for example... but enough of my ramblings.

We invite you to join our Discord if you wish to talk with others who are exploring HEROIC with us, or ask your questions/make your comments here, I will get email notifications when replies happen for sure.

Thank you again for discussing this little passion project of mine and I am positive your input can help make it an even superior final product!

Peace, love, geek.

Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.

Tenbones,

What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?

Backed it two days ago.  I will probably have a difficult time getting my group to play it, but I want to support people reviving and revising good systems.

Quote from: Bear on March 11, 2024, 07:11:42 PM
Hey folks!

I just wanted to stop in and say hi, as I see quite a lively discussion going on here and that makes me happy.

I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.

As for the typos, and stuff, we are working on that, hence the beta qualification of the available docs. We would love to hear from you all about what you are finding that isn't clear, needs better explanation, or maybe even less.

Remember the Beta is a combination of 4 different writers, and sometimes that gets a bit confusing. Between v2.1 and 2.2 I literally found rules in the document that had been replaced and were no longer valid sitting there... (I'm looking at you Popularity!).

One of my big thistles is the Drive Section. The original writer was tasked with combining Profiles from ASH with the Callings that we lifted from MSHAG, and instead just gave me EVERY Profile... so that's be reworked, for example... but enough of my ramblings.

We invite you to join our Discord if you wish to talk with others who are exploring HEROIC with us, or ask your questions/make your comments here, I will get email notifications when replies happen for sure.

Thank you again for discussing this little passion project of mine and I am positive your input can help make it an even superior final product!

Peace, love, geek.

I get it's a beta - Not holding it against you at all. It's just mechanics for people to play with. Frankly I think for any MSH GM they'll see it for what it is - a much needed update. I admit I'm very happy that a lot of your ideas reflect my own, so you know... I'm biased LOL.

I plan on giving it a good once thrice-over and even as is, I definitely like what I see. I'll post my constructive thoughts here and on your Discord. Very excited for your project and want it to be the best it can be.

Quote from: Aglondir on March 11, 2024, 09:24:24 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.

Tenbones,

What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?

The easiest way to get it is to buy DC Heroes off Ebay. You can find DC Heroes on Ebay for around $60-70 last I checked.

Blood of Heroes, which is MEGS with the DC stuff removed. It's 99.9% MEGS. That's what I own. I also own the actual MEGS rules - but I think it's in my attic somewhere. Buying BoH is *expensive* and not really worth it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 12, 2024, 12:55:17 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on March 11, 2024, 09:24:24 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.

Tenbones,

What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?

The easiest way to get it is to buy DC Heroes off Ebay. You can find DC Heroes on Ebay for around $60-70 last I checked.

Blood of Heroes, which is MEGS with the DC stuff removed. It's 99.9% MEGS. That's what I own. I also own the actual MEGS rules - but I think it's in my attic somewhere. Buying BoH is *expensive* and not really worth it.

We definitely need a retroclone.

I'd love to see some actual plays which test the extremes just to see where things break.

Quote from: Bear on March 11, 2024, 07:11:42 PM
I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.

After a certain point the 'quirks' of a system become part of the charm, which is one reason design in this space is so difficult and many 'better' systems end up failing.

Quote from: tenbones on March 12, 2024, 12:50:53 AM
I get it's a beta - Not holding it against you at all. It's just mechanics for people to play with. Frankly I think for any MSH GM they'll see it for what it is - a much needed update. I admit I'm very happy that a lot of your ideas reflect my own, so you know... I'm biased LOL.

I plan on giving it a good once thrice-over and even as is, I definitely like what I see. I'll post my constructive thoughts here and on your Discord. Very excited for your project and want it to be the best it can be.

That's must kind of you sir.

I sent you a PM here

Peace, love, geek!