Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)

My money's on Bats...  (activate force field)

Quote from: Aglondir on March 28, 2024, 10:31:42 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)

My money's on Bats...  (activate force field)

FIGHT!

I could see it either way. My general feeling is that if it's a cage match, Cap is gonna win. If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.

In comics, the JLA/Avengers crossover is about the purest demonstration of both universes operating together. Kurt Busiek and (RIP) the legendary George Perez honored both universes. I can accept it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on March 28, 2024, 10:31:42 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)

My money's on Bats...  (activate force field)

FIGHT!

I could see it either way. My general feeling is that if it's a cage match, Cap is gonna win. If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.

In comics, the JLA/Avengers crossover is about the purest demonstration of both universes operating together. Kurt Busiek and (RIP) the legendary George Perez honored both universes. I can accept it.

Yeah, I can see it going either way. Like you mentioned, if Bats can take advantage of the environment (especially darkness) he's got the edge. I think they're about evenly matched in terms of fighting skill and tactics.

But when it comes to the movie screen-- Evan's Cap fights far better than Bale's Batman. That elevator scene in Winter Soldier-- damn. "Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?"

Been looking for a new Superhero rpg and  this one fits the bill for me at least.

When will it release? Will it be only through Drivethrurpg or in stores?

Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM
If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.

The thing is, Batman always has time to prepare, even when it seems impossible -- that's one of his superpowers.

Quote from: Aglondir on March 29, 2024, 01:31:54 AM
"Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?"

The GM saying this before every RPG session is an approved safety tool.

Quote from: Zalman on March 29, 2024, 06:54:09 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM
If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.

The thing is, Batman always has time to prepare, even when it seems impossible -- that's one of his superpowers.

Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities. So the edge for me goes to Cap. I can go either way if the writer reps them both well.

The fight I take a *little* more of an exception to is Thor vs. Superman. A lot of people cite the whole "Superman has no protection against Magic" weakness. While I don't think getting hit by a magical item itself "counts" towards this, as the item itself is just an item that is made with magic vs. being actual magic, but to some this might be a distinction without a difference, I tend to believe otherwise. I might make an exception for the Lightning from Mjolnir - which *is* magical. But nevermind that. My primary argument is that Thor is simply a better fighter than Superman. Combined with Mjolnir he should be beating that ass. Even If we're going to give Superman higher strength, which I'm fine with that - he's not clocking in over Shift-X(150) for the sake of making the distinction between Shift-Y(200), he's closer to the lower rank.

But I've never considered Superman over IN(40) Fighting which is *nothing* to slouch about. Wolverine is IN(40) Fighting for gods sake. Superman has always relied on his sheer power over skill in fighting, I don't give a flying shit about retroactive Kryptonian martial arts and that shit. Thor is UN(100) fighting because he's been doing the down'n'dirty with cosmic beings for *thousands* of years. He actually has spent many lifetimes fighting against heavy hitters on his own level. Superman - definitely a good fighter, but not on Thor's level. Those extra attacks represented by that skill *would* put Superman down. It would be a very hard fight - but Thor would win.

They do throw Thor a bone in there by Thor claiming he could take Superman in a rematch... but you know... In the end it's a small thing. The comic is great. Everyone should read it.

For movie Cap vs. Bats. Evans Cap would be bouncing Bale Bats up and down the court like a basketball.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 29, 2024, 05:23:12 AM
Been looking for a new Superherovrpgcand this one fits the bill for me at least.

When will it release? Will it be only through Drivethrurpg or in stores?

The crowdfunding completes in a month or so. And he's on v.3 of the beta rules. The writing is already well under way. No idea as to when it officially drops, but Bear is crunching away at it daily.

That's all I know.

Quote from: tenbones on March 29, 2024, 11:52:43 PM
Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities.

Yeah, but that scenario right there is a huge nerf of Batman's abilities to begin with, because foreknowledge is one of his biggest superpowers. So I reject the scenario. It's more like asking who would win between Thor and Superman in a fight ... on Krypton.

Quote from: Zalman on March 30, 2024, 06:55:34 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 29, 2024, 11:52:43 PM
Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities.

Yeah, but that scenario right there is a huge nerf of Batman's abilities to begin with, because foreknowledge is one of his biggest superpowers. So I reject the scenario. It's more like asking who would win between Thor and Superman in a fight ... on Krypton.

But the Avengers have literally fought JLA Analogs on their home turf *dozens* of times - the Squadron Supreme, who are nowhere even close to being slouches. Granted there are small differences betweem the JLA/SS, they even make a reference to it in the fight where Hawkeye thinks he's going to take out Flash with his Boomerang-Arrow like he did to the Whizzer, but Flash takes Hawkeye out because he's got experience with Captain Boomerang. Little stuff like that is what honors both universes without fuckery.

I think the Batman/Cap situation as it played out in the books is probably the most plausible. I'm fine with it.

Thor and Supers fighting in the middle of a Metropolitian City doesn't grant Superman any particular advantage - due to the points I made in my last post. On *Krypton* c'mon that's a bit different.

Tenbones,

Need your take on these showdowns between very similar charcters. My winners are in parens.

Superman vs. Shazam? (Supes)
Thor vs. Wonder Woman (?)
Dr. Strange vs Dr. Fate (Fate)
Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow (?)
Daredevil vs Nightwing? (Nightwing)
Namor vs. Aquaman? (Aquaman)

Quote from: Aglondir on April 01, 2024, 03:19:11 AM
Tenbones,

Need your take on these showdowns between very similar charcters. My winners are in parens.

Superman vs. Shazam? (Supes)
Thor vs. Wonder Woman (?)
Dr. Strange vs Dr. Fate (Fate)
Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow (?)
Daredevil vs Nightwing? (Nightwing)
Namor vs. Aquaman? (Aquaman)

Superman vs. Shazam - Supes. Experience, determination, and well... he's an adult. If Billy were at full experience level (never mind the Sorcerer aspects of his character), I suspect he'd give Superman a run. But outside the magic, I still think Superman would generally always win.

Thor vs. Wonderwoman - Thor. More powerful and better combatant. I think Diana *could* give him a serious run for his money, but once it got to that level (i.e. once she *really* hurt him) he'd cut loose and she'd drop. I'm always with Stan Lee - Thor is the most powerful and will always win (my paraphrase).

Dr. Strange vs. Dr. Fate - HMMMMMMMMM. Let me qualify this: we're going to assume it's OG Kent Nelson vs. 80's/90's era Dr. Strange, mainly because Marvel and DC did some crazy stuff to both characters. I'm able to overcome my personal biases - Dr. Strange is my second favorite character in Marvel.  I gotta give it to Dr. Fate. The Helm of Nabu simply conveys too much raw power. It's not to say that if Strange *knew* about Fate's abilities he couldn't win - he most certainly could - but Dr. Fate, especially the OG Kent iteration, is just a little too much more.

Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow - Hawkeye. Dude has *way* more nasty arrows than Oliver and is more ruthless. I take nothing away from Oliver, I think in terms of skill they're even-steven. But Clint is far more underhanded than Oliver and has proven it over and over in big-league fights where he's *way* outclassed. Hawkeyes arrows are far more bizarre and scale in power much higher than Green Arrows by direct comparison to their Who's Who/Marvel Handbook entries as well as their DCU/MSH write ups.

Daredevil vs Nightwing - Nightwing. I like Daredevil more, but the fact is, Nightwing is bringing a ridiculous array of gear to the table along with skills that can easily match DD. There are some scenarios, assuming Nightwing and DD doesn't know anything about one another and they meet on a rooftop, where DD *could* take him out. Such as Nightwing trying to smokebomb/blind DD to gain some advantage. In a straight up fight? I think they're even. But in a duel? Nighwing is going to take it... barely.

Namor vs. Aquaman Namor. Why? Because over the years they had to make Aquaman *more* like Namor to make him more relevant. Namor is a better combatant, he's far far far more ruthless (he's a borderline villain). Aquaman is definitely cooler these days, but Namor is a badass and is radically stronger than Aquaman. I actually don't think this is even a contest. Most of the Marvel/DC team-ups have Aquaman winning by trickery not actual ability. And in none of those cases would I even agree it would have worked (except when he fought She-Hulk, he smartly just ran from her). But beating Namor with a Free Willy whale landing on him? Lame. Namor *could* easily take that. It was a dumb writing. Comparing their stats in DCU/MSH - Namor by a mile. Aquaman back then could lift about 4-tons. Namor is clocking in at 75-tons, which is about what you need to be narcissistic enough to think you can beat the Hulk and Thor (which Namor has tried many times). Namor also swims faster in the water, and he flies and fights a LOT better.

I love these kinds of questions - and sure people will always have different opinions. Just for the record I ballpark my opinions based on the 80's and 90's era of Supers books for a VERY specific reason. Jim Shooter introduced the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe internally for his editorial staff so that writers had to *stay* within those boundaries for characters unless it was approved by Editorial (i.e. Jim Shooter himself). DC followed suit with their Who's Who. And you had a pretty solid and stable era of comics where characters contained and their stories were filled with conflict that forced writers to be disciplined as opposed to modern day idiocy where Superman is on a Kryptonian Bench-Press and lifting 6-Septillion Tons... Yes. I'm not kidding.

Writers today are retards. But the Shooter Era for Marvel made DC just as good. Both RPG's were statted  from these books, and that's part of the charm. Sure things change, but by and large WE as fans have to curate what want or like in our personal canons. I mix my DC and Marvel content up in my Supers games. I curate the fuck out of it. So questions like these are fun and not very controversial for me.

Let me throw some out there:

Deathstroke vs. Captain America
Black Panther vs. Bronze Tiger (modern era)
Ikaris vs. Firestorm
Daredevil vs. Bane
Blue Beetle vs. The Beetle
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) vs. Silver Surfer
Spiderman vs. Hawkman
Lady Shiva vs. Elektra
Steel vs. Ironman

man I could do this all day...

V.3 of the beta rules has dropped.

Tenbones,

Great analysis! Here's my thoughts, with the caveat that most of my comics knowledge comes from the 80's (I used to own some of those Marvel Universe issues you mentioned when I was a kid.)

QuoteSuperman vs. Shazam - Supes. Experience, determination, and well... he's an adult. If Billy were at full experience level (never mind the Sorcerer aspects of his character), I suspect he'd give Superman a run. But outside the magic, I still think Superman would generally always win.

Agree 100%.

QuoteThor vs. Wonderwoman - Thor. More powerful and better combatant. I think Diana *could* give him a serious run for his money, but once it got to that level (i.e. once she *really* hurt him) he'd cut loose and she'd drop. I'm always with Stan Lee - Thor is the most powerful and will always win (my paraphrase).

Yeah, I think Thor comes out ahead both in terms of fighting ability, strength, and toughness. Not sure what would happen if WW snared him in the lasso?

QuoteDr. Strange vs. Dr. Fate - HMMMMMMMMM. Let me qualify this: we're going to assume it's OG Kent Nelson vs. 80's/90's era Dr. Strange, mainly because Marvel and DC did some crazy stuff to both characters. I'm able to overcome my personal biases - Dr. Strange is my second favorite character in Marvel.  I gotta give it to Dr. Fate. The Helm of Nabu simply conveys too much raw power. It's not to say that if Strange *knew* about Fate's abilities he couldn't win - he most certainly could - but Dr. Fate, especially the OG Kent iteration, is just a little too much more.

Fate all the way. There's a lot of weirdness from the 70's— like the Helm being able to transport him to the edge of the galaxy in an instant, which makes him faster than the Flash. And the weird "triple ultimate form" where he fuses with his wife and Nabu and is undefeatable. But even without the helm, Fate has near supes-level strength and toughness. Strange also has a drawback in that a lot of his stuff is focus-based and ritual-based, whereas Fate just wills it and it happens.

QuoteHawkeye vs. Green Arrow - Hawkeye. Dude has *way* more nasty arrows than Oliver and is more ruthless. I take nothing away from Oliver, I think in terms of skill they're even-steven. But Clint is far more underhanded than Oliver and has proven it over and over in big-league fights where he's *way* outclassed. Hawkeyes arrows are far more bizarre and scale in power much higher than Green Arrows by direct comparison to their Who's Who/Marvel Handbook entries as well as their DCU/MSH write ups.

Interesting! I don't know enough about GA, to be honest. Hawkeye always struck me as a bit of an ass, but that has nothing to do with the showdown. The TV show "Arrow" makes out Queen to be just as much of a badass as Batman, but he's also insufferably annoying. If we're doing movie/TV showdowns, Arrow might be one of the top three fighters.

QuoteDaredevil vs Nightwing - Nightwing. I like Daredevil more, but the fact is, Nightwing is bringing a ridiculous array of gear to the table along with skills that can easily match DD. There are some scenarios, assuming Nightwing and DD doesn't know anything about one another and they meet on a rooftop, where DD *could* take him out. Such as Nightwing trying to smokebomb/blind DD to gain some advantage. In a straight up fight? I think they're even. But in a duel? Nighwing is going to take it... barely.

I'm a big DD fan, and not so much a Nightwing fan, but the arsenal of gadgets alone decides the fight. I love the Death Battle series. I think this was a fair outcome. The action starts at 13:58, and it's remarkable for a fan-made production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOYloEFEEvs

QuoteNamor vs. Aquaman Namor. Why? Because over the years they had to make Aquaman *more* like Namor to make him more relevant. Namor is a better combatant, he's far far far more ruthless (he's a borderline villain). Aquaman is definitely cooler these days, but Namor is a badass and is radically stronger than Aquaman. I actually don't think this is even a contest. Most of the Marvel/DC team-ups have Aquaman winning by trickery not actual ability. And in none of those cases would I even agree it would have worked (except when he fought She-Hulk, he smartly just ran from her). But beating Namor with a Free Willy whale landing on him? Lame. Namor *could* easily take that. It was a dumb writing. Comparing their stats in DCU/MSH - Namor by a mile. Aquaman back then could lift about 4-tons. Namor is clocking in at 75-tons, which is about what you need to be narcissistic enough to think you can beat the Hulk and Thor (which Namor has tried many times). Namor also swims faster in the water, and he flies and fights a LOT better.

I don't know either character that well, but I've read the issue with the whale drop ("Your problem is you're too noble to cheat.") Based on what you describe, that doesn't sound accurate! With a 75 STR, Namor might be inconvenienced from the whale drop, but it's not a fight-ender. I don't understand Aquaman. Harpoon arm, or no? Beard or no? Trident weapons master or no? I've seen a lot of clips with from the animated JLA show where he's going toe-to-toe with Diana and there's no clear winner. When did Aquaman become that level? And I thought I read an issue where he could mind control humans, because the "reptile centers of the human brain evolved from the sea." WTF is that about?