Quote from: Domina on March 25, 2024, 12:13:01 AM

Prowlers and paragons can already do that, and it's already been released.

But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.

I like P&P - but frankly, it is slightly chunkier as a dicepool system, it works fine. I find MSH is just easier, scales a lot better (not so much that it matters) but /shrug. I feel the same way about Savage Worlds Supers - and everyone here knows I'm a massive Savage Worlds guy, but I'd never use it over MSH for running Supers.

Speaking of #Daredevil.

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times).  He's got 91.

Those numbers are unnecessarily big IMHO.

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end.  Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.

I thought people here typically frowned upon incongruous narrative currency.

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:53:00 AM
But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.

But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?

Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.

You can also hit-everyone in the area with a -4CS attack - the GM can adjudicate it as necessary.

But hey... there's lots of ways to split the hair on trying to emulate comics. The larger point being the MSH and Heroic rules do all of that with ease.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?

It repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.

1) Nostalgia is not a bad thing. 2) It's not steering a ship that is a high-speed/low-drag cruiser that steers itself. It just has some upgrades to its navigation system. No one is being told *what* kind of Supers game to run. They're being given a ruleset that has stood the test of time - much like people claim about the OSR products based on Basic and 1e/2e. It's there to be used and for people to realize that you don't need a slide-rule and a calculator to play like Champions, and it can give you the exact experience you're looking for if you have any kind of GMing skills - or if you're a novice.

I'll do that claim even better - these rules can run most other genres of RPG play *better* than their traditional systems.

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PM
It repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.

Is Dynamic = CHA?

Pretty much. Your Dynamic FEATS are modified by your Renown (which is your Popularity). Effectively Popularity's function has been split in two - now it's a Modifier to your Dynamic stat FEATS.

This makes a big distinction between some jackass wearing a Captain America costume and telling people something. And Steve Rogers doing it.

Works the same for your homegrown PC/NPC.

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 05:10:14 PM
Pretty much. Your Dynamic FEATS are modified by your Renown (which is your Popularity). Effectively Popularity's function has been split in two - now it's a Modifier to your Dynamic stat FEATS.

This makes a big distinction between some jackass wearing a Captain America costume and telling people something. And Steve Rogers doing it.

Works the same for your homegrown PC/NPC.

Awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMY99NXOgc

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PMIt repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.

Yeah I'll go with fudge it, because that's a terrible way to gauge who's good at interactions. That means Gambit is crap at smooth talking while not dressed as an X-Man, and Steve Rogers is slaying.

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:39:42 AM

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM

I will respectfully disagree as we did find it an issue and we moved on to MEGS for street level hero genres as a result of it being an issue for us. In MEGS a guy like DD could pretty normally take 3-4 thugs in a single round, possibly up to 8 with a good roll.

Sweet. MEGS is a great system. Heroic doesn't have that problem. Either way - if you're demanding that DD be handle to knock out <X>Thugs per round for it to be playable, I suspect there are other "issues" at play here. But if you found a solution in MEGS, there you go. As for Heroic, it won't have that problem either.

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times).  He's got 91.  If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end.  Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.

1) Daredevil is an NPC. If you're playing him as a PC, then you are free as the GM to decide whatever stunts that PC needs to do whatever you need to do. The whole point of MSH (and Heroic) is to let the PC's have what is needed to exemplify that character. 2) In your example you're not actually discussing *which* Daredevil you're talking about. Are you talking about Daredevil when he first started? Are you talking about Daredevil from Frank Miller's era? Are you talking Ninja-God Modern DD? The solution is the same - give him what he needs to be the DD you imagine. We've *all* seen DD do that move. He probably has that stunt and slew of others. If you're hanging on this as an argument, you're splitting the hair mighty fine. If you think Stunts are "too difficult" to attain - I'll happily disagree as I run sandbox MSH for decades now, and any PC worth his salt typically has enough Karma earned through hard play to pop a stunt off and do their due diligence on mastering it (often through the simple use of saying "During my downtime I master this stunt.")

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
Don't get me wrong, we played the hell out of MSH for a long time and loved it. It's still for me the easiest super's game out there, but it had its flaws.

The "Aunt May" issue certainly exacerbates the issue by making the thugs do way more damage than they should, leaving DD more bloodied than he should be. I'd say the issues go hand in hand.  The comparing attacks and moving along a chart reminds me of how Ascendant handles combat in a way.

After looking a the goon rules and some of the other changes, my interest is piqued.

Again, depends on which DD we're talking about. Year One DD? Sure. But I don't gauge my systems by how "fast" or "many" goons any hero can take out in a round. In fact, I can't think of where I ever even considered it outside of your question. I don't think Heroic needs "goon rules" but hey, they're there for people to enjoy them and that's the real point.

Let us know what you think if you choose to get them!

FWIW, "daredevil" in this case is an example of a high level street hero that's recognizable rather than <insert old PC character that's probably a Snake Eyes ripoff here>.
Regarding the numbers, just using examples again. There's no hard and fast thing here other than "In the comics DD easily beats the 5 thugs guarding the door to get into he building and makes short work of all the kingpin's goons before confronting fisk"  Is that 4/6/8 per round? that's not important to me here other than he can take them down in a single round for 'genre emulation' or whatever fancy word you'd like to use here.  There's a specific chart in MEGS that lets you know how many people you can take out in a multi-attack and how it affects your opponent's OV/RV. The better your AV, the more people you can hit. 

The "hit everyone in the area at -4CS" thing was under powers, so we didn't think it worked for just regular slugfest.  I guess there's no real reason on why you couldn't apply it to attacks, but then the 'make a FEAT roll to get multiple attacks' thing makes less sense.  I'm sure we could go round and round on this, so I'll try to keep it to Heroic.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
Speaking of #Daredevil.

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times).  He's got 91.

Those numbers are unnecessarily big IMHO.

Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end.  Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.

I thought people here typically frowned upon incongruous narrative currency.

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:53:00 AM
But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.

But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?

Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.

Oh the cost for power stunts was WAY too high. That was something we house ruled very early.

Regarding 'narrative currency' that strongly depends on the genre to me. It's a given in a super heroic world to me. "Fantasy Fucking Vietnam"? not so much.

Quote from: Tristan on March 26, 2024, 07:13:43 PM
FWIW, "daredevil" in this case is an example of a high level street hero that's recognizable rather than <insert old PC character that's probably a Snake Eyes ripoff here>.
Regarding the numbers, just using examples again. There's no hard and fast thing here other than "In the comics DD easily beats the 5 thugs guarding the door to get into he building and makes short work of all the kingpin's goons before confronting fisk"  Is that 4/6/8 per round? that's not important to me here other than he can take them down in a single round for 'genre emulation' or whatever fancy word you'd like to use here.  There's a specific chart in MEGS that lets you know how many people you can take out in a multi-attack and how it affects your opponent's OV/RV. The better your AV, the more people you can hit. 

The "hit everyone in the area at -4CS" thing was under powers, so we didn't think it worked for just regular slugfest.  I guess there's no real reason on why you couldn't apply it to attacks, but then the 'make a FEAT roll to get multiple attacks' thing makes less sense.  I'm sure we could go round and round on this, so I'll try to keep it to Heroic.

Incorrect. This is under the Tactics section of Combat. It applies to *any* attack that is Blunt Slugfest, Escaping, and Energy and Force Powers. Punching/kicking/headbutting etc. is Blunt Slugfest. This rule has been part of MSH since Basic.

So yes, a "high level street hero" can take out an *entire* gang in one action if he really wanted to - i.e. has a good roll (and if needs be use Karma). What you seem to be disagreeing with me is "how easy it should be." Frankly, I think MSH/Heroic is perfectly fine. YMMV. It's such a non-issue to me that it's mostly irrelevant in light of the other mechanical issues with MSH which Heroic currently resolves.

The Multiple Attack issue? Not sure if it matters much? It's a taste thing. I think it tracks nicely, but there are some adjustments I'd do but it would make things a tad more granular. MSH wasn't designed to flow like D&D - it's a mechanical snapshot of a comic panel. Rarely do you see big-sluggers doing "multiple" attacks in a single panel vs. more "Street Level" heroes, where you're trying to emphasize movement and speed. But does *anyone* really believe Captain America is a better fighter than Thor? or Hercules? It works for the emulation that MSH is trying for.

This same "Hit Everyone" rule is also in Heroic.

And if you want to really push the issue (in Heroic) the PC could also do an All-Out-Attack on *everyone* in the area, for an additional -3CS (for a total) of -7CS and do an additional +2CS. So sure it's an outlier - but that's precisely what the Karma system is for. In this case our "High Level Street PC" would do IN(40) damage to everyone in the area.

Could he sustain that against 30 goons? No. But that's kinda the point, right? We're dickering around about how/when a High Level Street character can take out goons. You and I can agree/disagree all day on MSH. But in Heroic? *All* of these issues are addressed.

What more, if you're an MSH purist, you can use any/all rules from Heroic and drop them into MSH...and vice versa without missing a beat.

Or you know, just use MEGS if that's your jam.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 26, 2024, 06:32:25 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PMIt repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.

Yeah I'll go with fudge it, because that's a terrible way to gauge who's good at interactions. That means Gambit is crap at smooth talking while not dressed as an X-Man, and Steve Rogers is slaying.

You have that reversed. Gambit's Renown would be low - he's a dirty fucking Mutant and professional thief.  But Gambit's Dynamic would be high - like IN(40). He rolls on the IN(40) by default. His Renown is calculated in if whomever he's talking to, intimidating, trying to convince etc. when making that Dynamic Feat as Gambit.

This also can change Reaction (there is a Reaction table - just like in OSR games) to help move that needle.

So yes, you can have your cake, eat it, smear it all over your body, and go... ohhhhh yeah.

Or Fudge it. That works too.

Quote from: tenbones on March 14, 2024, 06:18:33 PM
Streaming tonight talking about HEROIC Mechanics.

I'll be a guest if anyone is interested.

https://youtube.com/live/whzme7xsX8E

Although I owned DC heroes and MSH back in the day, they never really clicked. largely I suppose because I never played with a group that knew how to make them sing.

But tenbones praise was enough to get me to watch the video, and I gotta say...

Mad Props to Tenbones for actually resembling his avatar. That's next-level forum street cred right there.


Also, I am intrigued by the game. My free advice would be; if he does a backerkit to pour all his money into layout and art. Now granted, how it actually plays at the table is what really matters... But a superhero RPG should have kickin' superhero art to get peoples attention to sell.

Quote from: tenbones on March 27, 2024, 05:25:56 PM

Incorrect. This is under the Tactics section of Combat. It applies to *any* attack that is Blunt Slugfest, Escaping, and Energy and Force Powers. Punching/kicking/headbutting etc. is Blunt Slugfest. This rule has been part of MSH since Basic.

So yes, a "high level street hero" can take out an *entire* gang in one action if he really wanted to - i.e. has a good roll (and if needs be use Karma). What you seem to be disagreeing with me is "how easy it should be." Frankly, I think MSH/Heroic is perfectly fine. YMMV. It's such a non-issue to me that it's mostly irrelevant in light of the other mechanical issues with MSH which Heroic currently resolves.

The Multiple Attack issue? Not sure if it matters much? It's a taste thing. I think it tracks nicely, but there are some adjustments I'd do but it would make things a tad more granular. MSH wasn't designed to flow like D&D - it's a mechanical snapshot of a comic panel. Rarely do you see big-sluggers doing "multiple" attacks in a single panel vs. more "Street Level" heroes, where you're trying to emphasize movement and speed. But does *anyone* really believe Captain America is a better fighter than Thor? or Hercules? It works for the emulation that MSH is trying for.

This same "Hit Everyone" rule is also in Heroic.

And if you want to really push the issue (in Heroic) the PC could also do an All-Out-Attack on *everyone* in the area, for an additional -3CS (for a total) of -7CS and do an additional +2CS. So sure it's an outlier - but that's precisely what the Karma system is for. In this case our "High Level Street PC" would do IN(40) damage to everyone in the area.

Could he sustain that against 30 goons? No. But that's kinda the point, right? We're dickering around about how/when a High Level Street character can take out goons. You and I can agree/disagree all day on MSH. But in Heroic? *All* of these issues are addressed.

What more, if you're an MSH purist, you can use any/all rules from Heroic and drop them into MSH...and vice versa without missing a beat.

Or you know, just use MEGS if that's your jam.

The dickering over numbers or whatever is just that, genre emulation of having the bad-ass street level guy plow through the goons to get to the 'real' fight.  Sure, you can narrate it, but it's more fun to roll dice.  As we've established, Heroic has that covered.

We haven't really played MEGS or any other Supers in forever. Just haven't found the right fit. Heroic looks like it addresses a lot of my irritations in this area. Have to read over it more for the other minor things we worked around, but I'm definitely interested in it.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 27, 2024, 06:02:02 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 14, 2024, 06:18:33 PM
Streaming tonight talking about HEROIC Mechanics.

I'll be a guest if anyone is interested.

https://youtube.com/live/whzme7xsX8E

Although I owned DC heroes and MSH back in the day, they never really clicked. largely I suppose because I never played with a group that knew how to make them sing.

But tenbones praise was enough to get me to watch the video, and I gotta say...

Mad Props to Tenbones for actually resembling his avatar. That's next-level forum street cred right there.


Also, I am intrigued by the game. My free advice would be; if he does a backerkit to pour all his money into layout and art. Now granted, how it actually plays at the table is what really matters... But a superhero RPG should have kickin' superhero art to get peoples attention to sell.

Semi-interesting story. After I broke up with my girlfriend many years ago, she went on to become a developer on City of Heroes (not to my knowledge). In the early days of that game development, they needed assets for the game. She still had a lot of fondness for me, and she ended up putting my face in the game. Here's the kicker - I later got married and me and all my friends were playing, then I noticed that actual photographs I had taken with her were used in some of the movie posters, and in-game advertisements. That's when I looked up who the team was and how the fuck did they get these pictures - and there she was. I contacted her and had a good laugh. So yeah, that face is actually my face. Granted I was a lot less of a fatass back then. But yep. That's me.

I've had this avatar for a long time, a little homage to her (and I love City of Heroes).

As for Heroic - Bear has shared some of the art from the game. What I've seen so far is pretty good. Obviously he doesn't have the budget to hire named comic artists, but he's got some solid art. I'm in the dark of what the whole book will look like, I'm mostly consulting on rules and now GMing sections.

Quote from: Tristan on March 27, 2024, 11:11:16 PM

The dickering over numbers or whatever is just that, genre emulation of having the bad-ass street level guy plow through the goons to get to the 'real' fight.  Sure, you can narrate it, but it's more fun to roll dice.  As we've established, Heroic has that covered.

HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)
Since we're going to discuss it at this level nuance, I'm going to chalk it up to the GM making it *feel* right for his players. I don't like to just recite numbers and then lower health scores - I like telling my players when their PC hits for 30-points of damage, describing the feeling of slamming 1-ton's worth of force into the jaw of his opponent. Or better I like letting them tell me where/how they make their attack and I embellish it as needed to really make them feel just how powerful they really are.

I'm with you 100% that a gaggle of thugs *shouldn't* be a problem. I think it's a matter of which system gives you that "perfect" expression in play that sticks with you. A lot of that might be your GM.

Quote from: Tristan on March 27, 2024, 11:11:16 PMWe haven't really played MEGS or any other Supers in forever. Just haven't found the right fit. Heroic looks like it addresses a lot of my irritations in this area. Have to read over it more for the other minor things we worked around, but I'm definitely interested in it.

Do it! and let us know how it turns out.