That is correct!

MSH is a strangely "modern" game design that happened to be created by Jeff Grubb that would take the TTRPG industry 30-years to catch up to. DC Heroes, gets a nod too. The biggest flaw in the system (and it certainly wasn't a deal-breaker) was this lack of relative ability in the mechanics having no value.

D&D possesses this same problem. Being a 20th-lvl Fighter on paper means nothing in terms of actually being hit by a 3rd-lvl Fighter in combat. D&D obfuscates this by gear and the abstraction of HP. MSH actually has mechanics that are used in other aspects of the game that *do* leverage these relative differences - the Auto Success rule where if you're Rank is 3 Ranks higher than the Difficulty Rank it's automatic success. But this is not used in combat. You *could* use it, but it would cause a cascade of other tweaks you'd have to do for other rules.

I spent a couple of years really thinking about it, and it *always* irritated me for decades. My solution was, ironically, influenced by Savage Worlds. The goal was to introduce a relative mechanic comparison, but it *had* to not cause the cascade effect. Here's the funny part - I was discussing the problem with this other MSH GM and she was very much interested in this idea, and we both kept going down these rabbit-holes that solved the relativity part, but it *always* caused the cascade failure where we'd have to revise the Talent system, and the rest of the Offensive/Defensive manuevers, and at that point it meant we were creating an entirely new system. The whole point was to maintain backwards compatibility.

The solution was not using a direct comparison of ability Ranks per se. It was to pin the action to a specific column. The obvious choice was the Typical Column. Then we Add/Subract the differences for contested rolls - and voila. It was a revelation. I wasn't even sure it would work. I had a friend of mine play Captain America, and I had him take on a dozen Hand Ninjas in a warehouse. It *felt* exactly right. My players were super-skeptical, I told them to trust me. I ran an entire campaign that lasted over a year, and of course they're sold.

The WEIRD part was I was telling all the guys on the Non-Official Marvel Canon Project discord about it, the torchbearer of the MSH world! And the half of them were heatedly arguing with me about it as if I shit on the Holy Grail. I just kind of shrugged and moved on. It's been part of my homebrew rules ever since. Seeing this rule here in this HEROIC system warms me to no end.

I watched some videos of Bear, and that guy is definitely from my tribe. He gets it. His comicbook GMing views are *exactly* like mine. I was eerily laughing at his self-deprecation explaining to Supers gaming to GM's with less experience that struggle with it. I know that conversation all too well - we both have consumed so much comicbook lore in our youth, that we're self-conscious about talking shop to GM's that think running a Supers game is just like running D&D. It's not. But it's easy to come off as condescending to those that don't understand it. Watching Bear explain it to them made me die laughing.

Anyhow... IF nothing else, you can download his free beta-rules and run whatever you want with them. MSH is an insanely strong and durable system. You can run **any** genre of game you want with it. I've tricked my players into playing D&D fantasy with it by having their PC's get cursed by Loki and transported to Asgard where they had to pick up weapons and armor and fight their way across Jotunheim, quest for magical treasures, save people, learn and perform Asgardian magic rituals that would after many sessions send them home.

The realization hit them right towards the end, "dude... we've been playing D&D!!!!" /wink Gotcha bitches!

MSH and now Heroic! deserves much love. Give it to them.

Not mentioned, but have been using it for the last four years, the old Mayfair DC Heroes game commonly referred to as MEGS. Mayfair Exponential Game System. It does what TSR Marvel was doing, but better enough to sell me on it after looking at all the old and the new available to run supers. This game Heroic looks to lean on some of those strengths. DC Heroes strengths are; solving the Aunt May problem, MEGS doesn't have it, degrees of success, narrative control by players with the use of Hero Points, best rules for super speed, auto fire, team attacks and multi-attacks I've seen and one roll gives you both your to hit result, degree of success and effect of damage. This book being produced sounds like a must read for myself. The old Marvel and DC games share many similar good qualities which are now being considered as discovered by narrative story games. I hate the word bloat of the original DC Heroes rule books. This sounds like it will give me good insight on how to give DC Heroes/The Blood of Heroes a minimalist treatment.

Whitefrank has a series of games based on the FASERIP system.  His games are available on drivethru.

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 05, 2024, 09:01:28 PM
Not mentioned, but have been using it for the last four years, the old Mayfair DC Heroes game commonly referred to as MEGS. Mayfair Exponential Game System. It does what TSR Marvel was doing, but better enough to sell me on it after looking at all the old and the new available to run supers. This game Heroic looks to lean on some of those strengths. DC Heroes strengths are; solving the Aunt May problem, MEGS doesn't have it, degrees of success, narrative control by players with the use of Hero Points, best rules for super speed, auto fire, team attacks and multi-attacks I've seen and one roll gives you both your to hit result, degree of success and effect of damage. This book being produced sounds like a must read for myself. The old Marvel and DC games share many similar good qualities which are now being considered as discovered by narrative story games. I hate the word bloat of the original DC Heroes rule books. This sounds like it will give me good insight on how to give DC Heroes/The Blood of Heroes a minimalist treatment.

MEGS is superb. I mentioned it above. But the real value in MSH is the sheer level of support for it as well as the availability of all the former product. I'd argue the fan-material, especially from the Unofficial Canon Project is as-good to superior to the original stuff. MEGS definitely has the mechanical oomph to do the job for sure. If I weren't so invested in MSH, I'd have zero problems running MEGS.

I'm currently in the middle of a Savage Forgotten Realms campaign. But I've already put everyone on notice - when this campaign eventually wraps up, we're running MSH and I'll be using the HEROIC! beta rules with it. I got precisely *zero* complaints.

I should have probably mentioned this sooner. 

The beta rules are on DT-RPG for free. 

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/404752/zenith-comics-presents-heroic-the-rpg-beta-playtest-edition

They're clearly beta.  No index or table of contents, no art, single column layout, and more.  The finished game will likely be dual column format based on the promo images on BackerKit. 

Yeah. Anyone with any experience with MSH can see how these rules apply. You could easily use those Beta rules right now, along with his chart and let'er rip.

Well, I mentioned it as there is a link to download the beta rules on the BackerKit page if you pledge.  I didn't want people thinking the only way to get the rules was to be a backer.

The beta rules are rough around the edges by quite a bit, but they're fully functional rules.

I like that different chapters use different colors in particular. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 04, 2024, 08:41:01 PM
So, I have no experience with FASERIP, or Bear's modified version of it.

I believe I understand it to work this way.

If I have a skill for playing music, and so does my arch nemesis, and we get into a Battle-of-the-Bands at the club one night it would work like this.

If our skill for playing music are the same, I would roll 1D100 on the "Shift-0" line right n the middle of the Universal table.  Note: The white "failure" state is not on the chart.  01 (blue) is a fumble, 02 to 49 is a white/normal failure (again, not depicted on the Universal Chart), 50 to 74 is a green/normal success, 75 to 97 is a gold Success with additional bonus result, and 98 to 100 is a red critical success with lots of extras for winning.

It would not matter if we were both feeble musicians, typical, amazing, or cosmic level musicians.  If we're the same skill level, it is a 50/50 toss up who is going to win the music battle.

However, If I were Amazing, and my nemesis was only Typical skill level, I am rolling on the chart with a +5 column shift (aka the +5CS line).  Then I have a 1D100 roll with 01 as a blue critical fail, 2-24 as a white normal fail (not depicted on the chart), 25 to 49 as a green success, 50 to 74 as a gold success with bonus, and 75 to 100 as a red critical success.

That sound about right?

So did this guy have a bet with his buddy to see who could design the least elegant resolution mechanic or something?

Quote from: Domina on March 06, 2024, 11:44:58 PM

So did this guy have a bet with his buddy to see who could design the least elegant resolution mechanic or something?

Quite the opposite. 

The people who swear by the FASERIP system have always bragged that the one chart on the back cover of the rulebook was the entire game.  It is used for all conflict resolutions.  You don't need lots and lots of specialized rules for interrogation, land navigation, gambling, crafting, etc. that many games have.   You just need the chart.

As we mentioned above, it wasn't perfect.  Direct, head-to-head conflicts didn't compare the skill of the two involved.   If I'm feeble at shooting a gun, taking a shot at Spider-Man is the same odds as shooting at a Galapagos tortoise, at least in old FASERIP.  Bear's new game, Heroic doesn't have that flaw. 

Like I said, FASERIP style rules are popular for having a single mechanic that covers it all, and actually works well.

It's why I chose a music battle.  It works just as well as if I said they were punching each other or competing in a golf tournament. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 04, 2024, 08:41:01 PM
So, I have no experience with FASERIP, or Bear's modified version of it.

I believe I understand it to work this way.

If I have a skill for playing music, and so does my arch nemesis, and we get into a Battle-of-the-Bands at the club one night it would work like this.

If our skill for playing music are the same, I would roll 1D100 on the "Shift-0" line right in the middle of the Universal table.  Note: The white "failure" state is not on the chart.  01 (blue) is a fumble, 02 to 49 is a white/normal failure (again, not depicted on the Universal Chart), 50 to 74 is a green/normal success, 75 to 97 is a gold Success with additional bonus result, and 98 to 100 is a red critical success with lots of extras for winning.

It would not matter if we were both feeble musicians, typical, amazing, or cosmic level musicians.  If we're the same skill level, it is a 50/50 toss up who is going to win the music battle.

However, If I were Amazing, and my nemesis was only Typical skill level, I am rolling on the chart with a +5 column shift (aka the +5CS line).  Then I have a 1D100 roll with 01 as a blue critical fail, 2-24 as a white normal fail (not depicted on the chart), 25 to 49 as a green success, 50 to 74 as a gold success with bonus, and 75 to 100 as a red critical success.

That sound about right?

This is brilliant. I was majorly confused by the universal table for this game compared to MSH. Which was my mistake. I was trying to assign the MSH style ranking system and getting confused as to the point of the ranking system at all if it's not lining up with the columns. I'm used to ranks lining up with the columns.

From what I understand now, the ranks are only important in comparison to others to measure column shifts. At first I assumed that meant that if I'm just doing normal tests without other people i'm just rolling Column 0 regardless of my rank. But then realized I think they want you as the GM to assign every kind of test a rank to compare to. IE: lifting a giant pile of steal beams is an Amazing test so compare that with your strength rank.

I like the beta book so far. But I think it could've been clearer on this. The book just says "the GM assigns a target number" like it's some generic percentile roll. This will confuse a lot of people as it doesn't mention how the system works beyond how it relates to opposed tests. So just change that to "the gm assigns a rank for a test, the PC compares that to the rank of a relevant power or stat and shifts coloums on the tables by the difference. Positive or negative. Then roll on the relevent column."

Yes to a point.

You only do the comparison vs. contested combat checks. Otherwise everything is the normal absolute values. Lifting a 50-ton tank, is *always* an AM(50) Feat check.

But fighting against Captain America, whose fighting is AM(50) - is relative to *your* Fighting Rank. A normal person is rolling on the -5CS column on the Universal Table.

Ranged attacks compare Agility. But! in the Beta rules he uses the same rule I do - if you can justify a power or stat to be used in lieu of the normal resolution comparison, you can. For example, when someone has the Hyperspeed Powerset (another rule I've used for years), you can use your Hyperspeed Power rank to make Agility-based rolls.

it needs to be said: these beta rules (and therefore likely the completed projected) is *100%* compatible with the regular MSH rules and secondary content.

Backed.

I'm just putting the finishing touches on a personal project involving the Marvel game and was reminded (whilst proof reading and putting the thing together) of the various niggles I had with the game back in the day.

It's nothing fancy - take the OCR'd PDFs that have been on the internet for years, fix the typos, add color and print/bind. Art is nicked from whatever I could grab from the internet. All for personal use, not for sale or publication etc.



Tweaking covers here. Print/bound two copies to see what I think. Probably settle somewhere in the middle.



Chapters color coded. Seems to be a thing these days.



Nothing added or deleted, just corrected and otherwise as it was when published in 1991. Edit: Ha! Just seen a typo to fix!



Writeups as per 1990/91. Loads of characters have changed/died/become more or less popular etc since then.



For me Spider-man is the default for a Marvel game. Aside from being the most popular/flagship character for Marvel if you get the write up right you can work up/down for the other characters.



Took a couple of months to do and in that time I scrapped/started again four times.

Anyway, thought I'd mention as the announcement of a new version of the FASERIP game might fix the problems I have with this and previous versions (I was never a great fan of Advanced - DC heroes is a better system for me anyway. Your mileage may vary).

Backed the Heroic game, looking forward to seeing the changes it brings to this excellent but flawed (not drastically but the examples of Fighting vs Agility  upthread are what I'm talking about) system.

Hey, Ten Bones.  I mentioned your post to Bear and he came here and had a look at it.  You must have made an impression, because during his latest podcast (he just hit $20,000 and ALL of his stretch goals) he talked about you.

Here is the video.  Skip to 00:23:23 where I mentioned you again, and then he brings up pleasing fans like you at 1:14:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rYXmPPcXE&t=4818s

I think you helped make him happy.