Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMAppreciate the lengthy and informative responses, and glad I decided to take a closer look after all.

Thank you for the consideration. I know I can get verbose. I appreciate the discussion a lot, I don't get to talk Supers on this forum much, so when I do... woof I know I open the floodgates of my mouth/fingers.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMLike most classic RPGs the majority of the 'kruft' is on the GM's side. Players only need to worry about their action declarations, trait Ranks, and Karma spends. But the magnitude of the numbers and steps in resolution can be greatly reduced, and it's a shame this new system didn't do that, as none of it facilitates the genre and only makes the GM's job more difficult.

100% with you on that. And I'm working on that "issue" right now. Soon.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMKarma itself on the other hand is the beating heart of the system. It effectively emulates the likes of Superman's moral constraints in an immersive manner. And it doesn't disrupt my verisimilitude as the Marvel/Heroic universe is an inherently moral one, and Karma is as real a thing as alignments are in D&D.

I've even come around on announcing Karma spends before a roll. However based on what I've observed with systems like this players are likely to only spend it to avoid negative effects unless they know exactly what the results of a successful action will be. So I'm very interest to hear more about the kind of situations you put characters in to tempt them to spend it for easy wins.

I'd argue that Karma-as-Alignment is even more powerful than D&D. Simply because it gets more nuanced in play to enforce certain kinds of behavior that is ultimately voluntary.

While there is nuance to be had here, as I've seen for YEARS that there should be alternative Karma awards for player actions. I think Heroic does a good job of this with their Callings subsystem. This allows players to customize their PC's character Karma award incentives directly to their style of play.

The goal should be to incentivize players to engaging in activities that award them Karma, which the GM should be rewarding them with in-game narrative benefits. I.e. - if your PC is racking up Karma doing friendly neighborhood stuff, then by all means have the locals reciprocate in varying ways. The greater the scope of those Karma awards, the greater the reciprocation. This is also something Heroic does well by breaking up Popularity awards into more interactive social mechanics.

This is how to reach players that want to be a little more edgy (Deadpool/Punisher types) as well as letting the truly do-gooder PC's shine as well.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMMechanically the system is based on buying results with Karma. Die rolls are simply the default amount spent on the action in question. So with enough Karma everything becomes an automatic success, and the universe may even cooperate with you to do the impossible.

Yep. But this is why on paper it can sound... odd. Once in play, there is definitely an economy to manage which really makes the game sing. It's hard to see outside of play. Especially from a D&D-binary mindset where all rolls are pass/fail. It's even more nuanced than that since while you're right, you *can* force a roll to being a success, not all successes are necessarily known results. In other words, some Feats are not known quantities - a box falling off a truck for instance, doesn't have its weight clearly printed on its side. If a PC tries to catch it before it lands on a lady walking her dog, and it is sufficiently heavy enough, it might be *beyond* the capacity of the PC regardless of the result. He will still spend that Karma to get the color-rank he wants, but it doesn't mean it will be successful because of it. Harsh, but true. Your point, however, stands.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMResolution is unnecessarily complex. The d100 leads to unnecessary math. There's no reason to differentiate between Ranks and Degrees. And ultimately the range is far more constrained than The Chart and d100 suggest. In fact a range of -2 ~ +2 would not be unreasonable as long as the bell curve was tuned, with Karma spends and moral compromises being used to push it further.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. But let me pretend I'm not (heh). I will agree that d100 is very swingy. I'm working on that. Ranks and Degree (color shifts) however are *absolutely* necessary. The Rank System for Heroic is *core* - because it leverages an existing mechanic in MSH and elevates it to plug holes that simply are silly that MSH doesn't properly address. Namely the Aunt May issue (Where Aunt May can punch Captain America or Spiderman *regardless* if they don't want to be hit, on a roll of 66 or higher). This is a massive break in genre emuluation. Always has been.

It's really not that complex at all either. You merely compare respective ranks, and in Heroic, you roll on the column and note the color. That's it. The real calculation is knowing what Column Shift modifiers are in play due to Defensive actions, Powers, Environment etc. But this is nothing different than you do in any other traditional RPG game. AND! They're always small numbers. 1's and 2's usually. So it's not like it's heavy calculation or anything.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMThe problem with rolling for Stunts is that it can simply be rerolled on failure. And the problem with using Reason as the basis is that it makes that trait way too overpowered. A Sorcerer or Speedster with Uncanny Reason will be chewing the scenery and trivially overcoming mild inconveniences. And the complex series of Rank/Degree rolls is just more confusing kruft over an otherwise simple concept.

I'll try explain this from the perspective of Andrew's design in Heroic (so that means I could be wrong, but I'm sure he can forgive me if I'm wrong, so indulge me.) vs. how MSH did it. So let's get the big obvious out of the way: Stunts are a Karma sink. Yes. Let no one say otherwise. It's one of the big Karma sinks that is designed to push "player engagement" by making them think a little deeper about their characters and how they operate.

You'd be ***shocked*** at how unimaginative players are with their powers. Because:
1) they're not used to having that kind of freedom in an RPG (D&D players)
2) they've really not considered the possibilities of just what it means to have their respective powers.
3) Let's face it - people are not really familiar with comics and what is really possible.

Stunts *can* radically alter the power-level of a PC with only a few adjustments. Not all powers are created equally, nor should they be. The Karma sink is real and necessary. Now where we can quibble is in the execution of how this sink works "narratively and mechanically".

In MSH - Narratively it's supposed to represent growth of a character(s) strictly in terms of using their powers/abilities. Not necessarily increasing their respective power per se. In other words, if your character can generate fire and they choose "bolt" as their basic quality (you give them a free Stunt). They might learn to control it more by doing an "Area effect" Stunt that doesn't kill everyone around them. In MSH - they want you to spend a BASE 100, then get a Red result on the check (which means potentially up to another 90 or so spent) because it's something your character has never tried before with their powers.

If you think about it, consider how crazy dangerous it would be fool around with your powers, I make my players consider this all the time when they try to get wild beyond the normal assumptions of their abilities. Then once you make the first Red result, they want you to make Three Yellow Results as a "getting the hang of it", before it's considered part of your normal repetoire.

I don't think it's THAT bad all said. It's tying a mechanical use to a narrative need. At no point is it *required* to spend Karma other than the initial attempt.

THAT SAID - I have players ask me ALL THE TIME to spend their downtime practicing Stunts so they don't have to pay beyond the initial 100. And many of the times, if not most, I'll let them do it, but they have to explain how they go about doing it for me approve it.

Handwavium is a powerful GM tool. Often I'll use these as montage scenes where I will use them as springboards for other game-adventure hooks.

In Heroic - Andrew is merely making it a very difficult Reason Feat. Now before you say it's too much - consider that MSH hits you with a flat 100 for making the roll. At least Heroic is giving you SOME kind of small mitigation simply by getting a good roll. Does it lean towards "smart people"? NOT REALLY.

Let me explain. It's a RED AM(50) Intensity check. Okay, how many characters have AM(50) Reason? Dr. Doom, Reed Richards. Yeah you'd have to have a character who is *that* smart. That's pretty tiny. But I'm steel-manning this to prove a point. Let's pretend that your character BIG BRAIN has AM(50) Reason, and you want to do a Stunt. You'd have to roll a 98 or higher. Shift-Zero column for you.

Anyone NOT as smart as you - which means everyone else - can only succeed on 100. By *default* that means Heroic is *radically* less expensive Karma-wise. This doesn't mean Big Brain doesn't have an advantage in the subsequent rolls, he's smart, he *should* figure things out faster that's what being smart is, right? But the advantages are only a little better, probably upwards of a 25% increase. Significant? Definitely, but you're talking about a MAXED-OUT smart character. For the vast majority of characters the differential is almost insignificant.

Again, this was Andrew addressing the likely fact that smart characters adapt faster. In the big picture outside of talking about specific powers this doesn't mean a whole lot since any player worth their salt will already have the Karma ready to go and will be able and willing to pay the extra costs to get the Stunts locked down.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 28, 2024, 06:33:01 PMFinally I have no issue with Whimsy Cards in principle as long as they don't result in dissonant additions to the fiction. For example #Genesys doesn't work for me because of how the abstract dice results demand changes to the fiction without providing any guidance as to what those changes should be. You get good/bad, really good/bad, and also good/bad, all of which you have to consider for every action requiring a roll, which is why many players simply ignore them as opposed to take time to interpret them in ways which ultimately don't make sense.

I'm completely out on Whimsey Cards. Not because I don't like them, but simply because *I* don't need them. My games are pretty dynamic already. I can totally see how new GM's to Supers could get a lot of value from them. I agree with you 100% here that if you're going to use them, that they should be used that way.

So I stuck with the campaign mostly because I love the concept of having the choice to compromise your principles in order to achieve your goals which this system enables. Sure we have games where you can risk consequences before a roll like V5, and after a roll like YZE and CoC, but choosing to violate your principles just hits different. It's the difference between failing to protect the innocent while pursuing an objective, and choosing not to. And I find it so compelling that it kicked my magnum opus back into beta.

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 02:48:37 PMI appreciate the discussion a lot, I don't get to talk Supers on this forum much, so when I do... woof I know I open the floodgates of my mouth/fingers.

Supers? I'd be happy if we just discussed RPGs here.

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 02:48:37 PMRanks and Degree (color shifts) however are *absolutely* necessary. The Rank System for Heroic is *core* - because it leverages an existing mechanic in MSH and elevates it to plug holes that simply are silly that MSH doesn't properly address. Namely the Aunt May issue (Where Aunt May can punch Captain America or Spiderman *regardless* if they don't want to be hit, on a roll of 66 or higher). This is a massive break in genre emuluation. Always has been.

Ranks? Yes. Degrees? Not so much.

I've found that the range of results in many games of this genre are far more constrained than they let on. M&M for example uses an ostensibly logarithmic scale but in actuality generates linear results. And if you do account for accurate scaling, it turns out that a variation of even a couple of points is massive.

I solved this problem long ago with such a log based system, but the issue was the bell curve of -2 ~ +2 I used was simultaneously too narrow to please players, yet still too broad to maintain a realistic simulation. In any case, Aunt May would have no chance of connecting with either Cap or Spidey regardless of how high they rolled. And the only way they'd have a chance is if they were somehow able to take advantage of some external element.

With something like #Heroic I could see spending Karma to exceed your limitations, but even then something would need to happen in the fiction for the result to make sense.

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 02:48:37 PMYou'd be ***shocked*** at how unimaginative players are with their powers. Because:
1) they're not used to having that kind of freedom in an RPG (D&D players)
2) they've really not considered the possibilities of just what it means to have their respective powers.
3) Let's face it - people are not really familiar with comics and what is really possible.

Sadly no, I wouldn't. And the reason I despise games like modern D&D and Pathfinder is because of how they outright punish this sort of creative thinking. At the very least these are the worst systems to run Jojo's Bizarre Adventure in, as the schtick there is all about creative use of powers.

And now you know why I draw players from the pool of weebs.

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 02:48:37 PMI have players ask me ALL THE TIME to spend their downtime practicing Stunts so they don't have to pay beyond the initial 100. And many of the times, if not most, I'll let them do it, but they have to explain how they go about doing it for me approve it.

But this is exactly the sort of thing I don't want in a heroic game. Attempting Stunts should carry some risk or at least be played out in the danger room.

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 02:48:37 PMI'm completely out on Whimsey Cards. Not because I don't like them, but simply because *I* don't need them.

I don't think #Heroic needed them either, especially when it looks like they're one of the biggest financial burdens of the entire project. Economically speaking the cards and miniature models should probably have been avoided entirely.