Came across this while reading an interesting blog article, wherein Black Diamond Games noted that its blog has become a feeder for its Facebook page. The facebook page gets far more activity.
http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2010/02/shifting-mediums.html
The study he cites to which supports his personal experience is here:
http://pewinternet.org/Reports/2010/Social-Media-and-Young-Adults.aspx
I've been thinking lately about my own changing RPG-related online reading habits. I used to go to at least 4-5 boards a day just a couple years ago. Now I pretty much go to TheRPGSite.com daily, and maybe once a week I go to Dragonsfoot and ENWorld.
Most of my actual reading and commenting seems to be on blogs these days. I've created a good list of about 300 blogs, and get notified if they are updated.
I have a twitter account, but I use that more to let me know of any big news that people are yapping about.
Anyhow, one of the big data points in the survey is that blogging has dropped significantly among kids and young adults, and has gone up with older adults.
As a business you want to be everywhere your customers are, so you want to be on every medium. As for hobbies though, unless you have a specific goal, you just want to be where fellow hobbyists are. For RPG's, that seems to still be boards and blogs.
Which makes me think there may be even more of a growing disconnect in the ability of the hobby to attract newer younger gamers, unless there is some sort of concerted effort to get a meaningful presence on places like Facebook.
Regarding the OSR, where the style of game due to its simplicity would be a natural attraction to younger gamers, it seems to exist in cyberspace in mediums in which membership of the younger audience is shrinking--namely blogs and boards, not Facebook.
Food for thought...
I've noticed that my younger nephews and nieces who are in high school today, they don't read blogs at all and they don't use email much at all. They prefer to text message to their friends.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;360729Which makes me think there may be even more of a growing disconnect in the ability of the hobby to attract newer younger gamers, unless there is some sort of concerted effort to get a meaningful presence on places like Facebook.
An even bigger problem is getting something like the brand name "Dungeons and Dragons" into the minds of younger gamers. With kids being literally immune to most online/offline advertisement, not watching television at all, not blogging, not twittering, not reading comic books, etc .... how can Hasbro attract new younger gamers, when most of the obvious mediums of promotion are not even on the kids' radar screens today?
Quote from: ggroy;360736An even bigger problem is getting something like the brand name "Dungeons and Dragons" into the minds of younger gamers. With kids being literally immune to most online/offline advertisement, not watching television at all, not blogging, not twittering, not reading comic books, etc .... how can Hasbro attract new younger gamers, when most of the obvious mediums of promotion are not even on the kids' radar screens today?
How much does everyone use Facebook for their RPG-related social interactions? Do you use it for some types of interactions but not for others? I used to have in my friends list a ton of RPG industry people, but deleted them because I wasn't that interested in their personal lives, just their gaming thoughts and perspectives, which I didn't get a lot of through Facebook. Does anyone find it useful for RPG-related social interactions or as a forum for an exchange of RPG ideas?
I don't use facebook at all these days.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;360738How much does everyone use Facebook for their RPG-related social interactions?
I would need to have some RPG-related social interactions first before I'd consider Facebook.
If/when I get back to face-to-face gaming regularly again, then I'd consider it. But that may also be something like two years away, so I'll see what the social networking tool
du jour is then.
The thing you do with text on FB and whatnot seems a lot like reading, but it isn't. It's conversation. Kids don't want to interrupt their conversation with ads or information or games.
I started a group on fb for roleplayers in the atlanta area. I don't know how successful it's been at actually getting folks together (people mention that they're organising games there and response may or may not happen by way of PM) but I tried an experiment recently. I put an ad up on fb for the group. Just a few days, for a limited age group (16-30), only folks with "rpg" or a related word in their profile and in the atlanta network, and limited to 10 clicks per day (max bid was .60 per click and max per day was 6.00). Membership in the RPG Atlanta group shot up maybe 25 in the five days I ran the ad... which I think is pretty good given the limited scope of the ad. Odds are I got 50 clicks (the max I set for myself), and out of that I got 25 members. Probably. It's possible I got friends of people who clicked and then invited folks they knew.
Besides that, my last campaign ran for the better part of the year. I used facebook to organise it. Had a lot of friends-of-friends in that group.
EDIT:
Quote from: stu2000;360749The thing you do with text on FB and whatnot seems a lot like reading, but it isn't. It's conversation. Kids don't want to interrupt their conversation with ads or information or games.
Farmville.
Kids (teens at least) use groups and events pretty extensively too. It's still more like a conversation than blogging is, but pretty useful for keeping people in the loop when organising a game or even a local community of gamers.
Perhaps one way to think of it is, how did toy/game companies advertise their products to kids a century ago (back in the 1800's and early 1900's) when there was no TV, no radio, no internet, etc ... ?
This would be similar to the "mental media blackout" of kids/teens these days, who don't watch TV, don't listen to the radio, don't blog, don't twitter, don't read comic books nor any newspapers, etc ... and who are generally "immune" to almost all forms of advertising.
I just have a feed for RPG Blog 2 on my Facebook page. I was thinking about making it its own account.
How in the world would I get any writing done if I had to dick around on FB or whatever? I begrudge the time I spend here, or writing my blog. Thing is, if RPG publishers move into FB in force - and some already have - then facebook becomes automatically dead and the kids will go somewhere else. I haven't got the time to chase them down, and they don't *want* to be bothered by ads and crap anyway. Besides, I'm old enough to be their grandfather. What kid wants to be bothered by old people? Heck, my wife and all her friends facebook! I'll bet the kids are all using something else already.
-clash
One of my coworkers explained to me how his teenage daughter uses FB in quite creative ways. She's got a handful of profiles there. One obvious reason is to obfuscate some conversations from parents eyes. Another, more surprising motivation, is because she belongs to a community of players who impersonate characters on FB. It's not table top RPGs they're playing though, more like a spontaneous freeform/fanfiction/collective storytelling in whatever setting that floats their boats.
Wouldn't it be funny if after unfair competition from CCG and video games, table top RPGs were to be dwarfed by some spontaneous, unstructured, online version of itself?
Quote from: boulet;360826One of my coworkers explained to me how his teenage daughter uses FB in quite creative ways. She's got a handful of profiles there. One obvious reason is to obfuscate some conversations from parents eyes. Another, more surprising motivation, is because she belongs to a community of players who impersonate characters on FB. It's not table top RPGs they're playing though, more like a spontaneous freeform/fanfiction/collective storytelling in whatever setting that floats their boats.
Wouldn't it be funny if after unfair competition from CCG and video games, table top RPGs were to be dwarfed by some spontaneous, unstructured, online version of itself?
They already are.
WotC's already trying this with their increased Twitter and Facebook thingee. It's not that hard to add a Twitter or FB echo at bare minimum.
:rant: General rant:
I'm really really
fucking tired[/i] of the OSR being touted as ruleslite and the only ruleslite show in town. Compared to D&D3.x fullbore* perhaps, but there are plenty of light RPGs, new and old, that aren't OSR related. Nor should Old School roleplaying
mean ruleslite. FGU games, Palladium, Rolemaster, Runequest for starters. I never considered AD&D ruleslite and don't consider OSRIC such either.
Finally one critique of 3.x was copious rules exceptions, something OD&D and OAD&D have their own share of. Not my cuppa as I prefer to get down and play not look up, be trumped or get tripped up by some exception. It's why in wargaming I prefer the poker-like elegance & frustration of Piquet (http://www.piquet.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=1) to Command Decision / Volley & Bayonet or DBA / Fantasy Rules! to WRG 7th edition or Warrior. Both of which are newer rules written in response to the older clunkier style games.
:banghead:
Quote from: flyingmice;360819I'll bet the kids are all using something else already.
;) 4chan and its various sundry ilk :teehee: :eek: (though since its various ilk largely result from seasonal migrations from /b/ it too is old hat)
Does anybody use MySpace anymore, for example?
* but even then you have stuff like Blue Rose, Castles & Crusades, MicroLite20, M&M 1st edition etc.
OSR seems stuck in a D&D vs D&D paradigm rut and I got off the D&D only or D&D as The Game train decades ago. While I applaud the creativity, enthusiasm and religious-level introspection displayed, and more products I fear it largely reinventing the wheel or walking a similar path as others have done years if not decades ago.
Quote from: Casey777;360863;) 4chan and its various sundry ilk :teehee: :eek: (though since its various ilk largely result from seasonal migrations from /b/ it too is old hat)
Does anybody use MySpace anymore, for example?
Part of the appeal of these sites for kids is that most adults don't even know about them. The appearance of actual presences by publishers is a sign that the place is seriously uncool and that the old farts are co-opting it. I know if I were a kid I would find somewhere else to hang. It would be like teens hanging out at a retirement home.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;360875Part of the appeal of these sites for kids is that most adults don't even know about them. The appearance of actual presences by publishers is a sign that the place is seriously uncool and that the old farts are co-opting it. I know if I were a kid I would find somewhere else to hang. It would be like teens hanging out at a retirement home.
Just like listening to the same music as one's parents, was considered uncool when growing up.
Perhaps today, fundamentally this is one of the biggest barriers that D&D and other tabletop pen-and-paper rpgs have. Kids/teens may perceive D&D to be their "parents' game" and is automatically considered "uncool".
Quote from: boulet;360826Another, more surprising motivation, is because she belongs to a community of players who impersonate characters on FB. It's not table top RPGs they're playing though, more like a spontaneous freeform/fanfiction/collective storytelling in whatever setting that floats their boats.
Yeah my youngest cousin is 12 years old, and she likes role-playing. it is this activity exactly that she is talking about when she uses the word.
Quote from: two_fishes;360878Yeah my youngest cousin is 12 years old, and she likes role-playing. it is this activity exactly that she is talking about when she uses the word.
And she is correct. Role-playing is nearly universal. It's the combination with gaming that is a different concept, and not nearly as much now in these days of computer games.
-clash
Quote from: ggroy;360877Just like listening to the same music as one's parents, was considered uncool when growing up.
Perhaps today, fundamentally this is one of the biggest barriers that D&D and other tabletop pen-and-paper rpgs have. Kids/teens may perceive D&D to be their "parents' game" and is automatically considered "uncool".
My son is far more conservative musically than I. At 23, he prefers classic rock, while I prefer current bands. Of course he's not a kid anymore...
Dagnabbit! Everyone under thirty is a kid to me! :D
-clash
Just an update on the facebook group thing... since the ad stopped running (10 am on the 15th), 9 people have joined the group. Likely invited by recent new members.
Quote from: flyingmice;360875Part of the appeal of these sites for kids is that most adults don't even know about them. The appearance of actual presences by publishers is a sign that the place is seriously uncool and that the old farts are co-opting it. I know if I were a kid I would find somewhere else to hang. It would be like teens hanging out at a retirement home.
-clash
One of the best and worst things about the internet is that no one cares about your age unless you mention it. I think facebook will stick around so long as you can keep your profile private and deny friend requests from parents.
Quote from: ggroy;360877Just like listening to the same music as one's parents, was considered uncool when growing up.
Perhaps today, fundamentally this is one of the biggest barriers that D&D and other tabletop pen-and-paper rpgs have. Kids/teens may perceive D&D to be their "parents' game" and is automatically considered "uncool".
I've warned about this for some time.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ggroy;360877Just like listening to the same music as one's parents, was considered uncool when growing up.
Perhaps today, fundamentally this is one of the biggest barriers that D&D and other tabletop pen-and-paper rpgs have. Kids/teens may perceive D&D to be their "parents' game" and is automatically considered "uncool".
Do you think WotC should have named 4E something like:
Points of Light: The fantasy battle game. Shake off the baggage of the D&D brand for younger folks AND avoid all the mind-numbing edition schisms.
You can't unring the bell now, but I really wonder sometimes if 4E would be getting more positive reception if it hadn't ALSO been part of the Dungeons & Dragons brand. Sure, it wouldn't have gotten the same level of attention, but WotC more than anyone else could grow a new brand.
Of course, in my fantasyland D&D would have remained a d20 game, given another decade to develop a new edition more organically and then become popular again.
Point of order: role-playing is uncool. Getting more coverage on MyBook or FaceSpace or whatever isn't going to make large swaths of any age group flock to our banner.
Quote from: jrients;361342Point of order: role-playing is uncool. Getting more coverage on MyBook or FaceSpace or whatever isn't going to make large swaths of any age group flock to our banner.
No, roleplaying *is* cool, Jeff. Literally millions of kids do it on social networking sites and various other mediums. the vast majority do it as a "let's pretend' thing, though, with no or very little game attached. Millions of others play "RPGs" with little or no roleplaying on their computer/console or online. It's the balanced roleplaying+game stuff that is odd. And I mean odd, not uncool. That association just isn't there with kids any more. It was an artifact of a different time.
-clash
Quote from: boulet;360826Another, more surprising motivation, is because she belongs to a community of players who impersonate characters on FB. It's not table top RPGs they're playing though, more like a spontaneous freeform/fanfiction/collective storytelling in whatever setting that floats their boats.
My wife used to be heavily involved with LiveJournal roleplaying games, but they're very different beasts to the games we consider RPGs.
In LJ games the goal is to mimic a pre-existing character as convincingly as possible, rather than create a new and different character within the setting. The fun of the game is in making posts to LJ that read like they were written by Buffy or Hermione Granger rather than inventing someone new within the Buffy/Potter-verse, because that would count as a sort of Mary-Sue-ish act.
I'm pretty sure that bridging the gap between those two styles of roleplaying is the key to bringing more women into the hobby - and possibly reinvigorating it along the way - but I have no idea how that could work.
Quote from: winkingbishop;361333Do you think WotC should have named 4E something like: Points of Light: The fantasy battle game. Shake off the baggage of the D&D brand for younger folks AND avoid all the mind-numbing edition schisms.
Better yet, just license the "World of Warcraft" name instead of calling it D&D. Advertise heavily.
Quote from: ggroy;361381Better yet, just license the "World of Warcraft" name instead of calling it D&D.
Judging by the frequency of remainders of this title appearing at my local Half Price Books, it appears that this earlier experiment failed. Perhaps the new rules would've made the crucial difference.
!i!
Roleplaying shouldn't try to make itself cool, it should try to make itself ironically retro-hip. The kids think that's so cool these days.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;361570Roleplaying shouldn't try to make itself cool, it should try to make itself ironically retro-hip. The kids think that's so cool these days.
RPGPundit
I agree. Like Odyssey's post I linked to in another thread wherein she mentions the whole retro-vintage-vinyl thing going on. I think the retro-cool thing is the best way to get it in front of the younger generation today.
And Goddammit it has to be a simple game if you want to do it that way.
And preferably in a format that can be played with everyone sitting on a couch, with maybe a coffee table in the middle of everyone for rolling dice.
It can't take itself too seriously. The whimsical aproach to dungeon design exhibited in the early days would be the way to go to attract this audience. One minute you're running from a platoon of orcs, you jump down a hole, and the next you're in "Alice in Wonderland".
I had hopes for Hackmaster Basic hitting this demographic, if they could keep some of the old whimsy, but they blew it with the level of detail in the game.
I has to be a game that would be explainable to newbs in the time it took to have a drink, or pass around the bong. Simple and basic. Two minutes tops. Players shouldn't even need to reference the books during the game.
It would essentially be Swords and Wizardry repackaged to have some sort of character to it. Right now S&W is written to be a game that is bare-bones rules, but is lacking in character. Any character it has and any flavor it exhibits are language meant to distinguish it from new school games, and describe its rules-light approach, and the principles in Matt Finch's Old School Primer.
That's fine if you're going to target it to a market that gets the new school game and is wondering what old school is all about. But to a demographic that doesn't know anything about the game at all other than that geeks played it 20 years ago, the intro/description/flavor/character/style/feel/vibe that a reader has to "get" in order to describe it to his/her friends while they're hitting the bong needs to be whimsical/fun/funny/over-the-top/ironic/retro-hip.
That way, after a new guy plays it for the first time in that group, he can go pick up a copy of it at a bookstore, throw onto the shelf next to Pictionary and Scrabble, and then HE can be the cool guy who "found" this old/new cool game and introduced it to HIS other circle of friends.
That's how retro-cool will spread rules-light RPG's.
I strongly agree with the 2-minute explanation rule.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ggroy;360736An even bigger problem is getting something like the brand name "Dungeons and Dragons" into the minds of younger gamers. With kids being literally immune to most online/offline advertisement, not watching television at all, not blogging, not twittering, not reading comic books, etc .... how can Hasbro attract new younger gamers, when most of the obvious mediums of promotion are not even on the kids' radar screens today?
Put D&D ads on the back of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards. It'll work wonders.
Also, ads on XBOX Live, if ever possible.
Quote from: Benoist;361833Put D&D ads on the back of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards. It'll work wonders.
Also, ads on XBOX Live, if ever possible.
How much would this be different than putting Beatles, Bee Gees, Aerosmith or Journey ads on the back of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards or on XBox Live?
Quote from: ggroy;361861How much would this be different than putting Beatles, Bee Gees, Aerosmith or Journey ads on the back of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards or on XBox Live?
It'd be interesting to see if Rock Band: The Beatles actually increased the download of Beatles titles on iTunes and other media favored by the younger crowd. Then you'd have an hint as to the impact of such a thing as a console medium advertisement for "vintage products".
As for TCGs, it's basically the right crowd playing cards in school that you want to target for a game like D&D. It just makes sense to target them with ads, I would think.